Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: Christian on 23 February 2009, 23:04:08
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
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Through the bulkhead by squeezing the extra wire through the large grommets in the pollen filter housing, then down under the plastic kick strips. Not too bad a job once you've got the wire through the grommet.
Kevin
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Thanks for that will have a looks tomo!
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
NO ! >:(
That s not a suitable feed for an audio amplifier.
A heavy cable MUST be run through the car, connected directly to the battery and fused in the approprate manner.
:y
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
NO ! >:(
That s not a suitable feed for an audio amplifier.
A heavy cable MUST be run through the car, connected directly to the battery and fused in the approprate manner.
:y
Ideally a circuit breaker if above about 30A......
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
NO ! >:(
That s not a suitable feed for an audio amplifier.
A heavy cable MUST be run through the car, connected directly to the battery and fused in the approprate manner.
:y
Ideally a circuit breaker if above about 30A......
And as close to the battery +ve terminal as you can practically get it, but it MUST be fitted before the cable dissapears through the bulkhead
:y
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Dave, are small circuit breakers now availble for in car use and are they widely used.....or are people still fitting cheap compact fuses to mega expensive power cable effectively negating the benefits of using big cable in the first place?
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Apologies for those who have seen this link before, but its still quite shocking to see how badly some people fit ICE
http://www.dndservices.co.uk/htmls/flash_htmls/blackmuseum.htm
:-X
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Ah yes.....you want to see some of the house wiring and gas work I see by registered pros!
People seem to still think that a fuse protects the appliance where in reality its there to protect the source.....it wont blow unless the connected setup has a fault!
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Dave, are small circuit breakers now availble for in car use and are they widely used.....or are people still fitting cheap compact fuses to mega expensive power cable effectively negating the benefits of using big cable in the first place?
Circuit breakers under 30A are seldom seen for a number of reasons, availability being one, but the main one is price. Smaller amplifiers are generally fitted on a tight buget, and £6 for a fuse and holder is often deemed more acceptable that the £25 or so for a decent circuit breaker. The breakers only seem to be widely used by those who are truly dedicated to car audio systems, wheras most people will generally use AGU fuses up to around the 60A mark and ANL fuses from 100A to 300A. MAXI fuses appear to have died out nowadays.
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There was a rather poor wiring job on a Senator which a certain (overly mothered) forum member turned up with to one of our meets!
(http://ftp://images.omegaowners.com/images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/lakes2007/IMG_1995.JPG)
Sadly I cant find the pic but, it involved the above car with a set of crocodile clips directly onto the battery (no fuse), the wire ran up the bonnet edge and in through the door jam !
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I am amazed at the fuse use, they have a non-negligable internal resistance (its how they work at the end of the day), they age at every turn on and reply on friction contacts!
I guess the populus are not educated into the benfits of CB's fully yet :y
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
NO ! >:(
That s not a suitable feed for an audio amplifier.
A heavy cable MUST be run through the car, connected directly to the battery and fused in the approprate manner.
:y
Never been into car hi-fi so didn't know :-[. Just knew there was a 12 volt feed in the boot on a reasonably sized cable! :y
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
NO ! >:(
That s not a suitable feed for an audio amplifier.
A heavy cable MUST be run through the car, connected directly to the battery and fused in the approprate manner.
:y
Never been into car hi-fi so didn't know :-[. Just knew there was a 12 volt feed in the boot on a reasonably sized cable! :y
Its a good supply feed for many things, its just that Car Audio equipment requires unfeasably large amounts of power, and a direct feed from the battery is the only real option.
;)
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I am amazed at the fuse use, they have a non-negligable internal resistance (its how they work at the end of the day), they age at every turn on and reply on friction contacts!
I guess the populus are not educated into the benfits of CB's fully yet :y
You are right about the fuses deteriorating, but when fuse sales are so lucrative, where would the business sense be in educating people about circuit breakers
::) :P
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I am amazed at the fuse use, they have a non-negligable internal resistance (its how they work at the end of the day), they age at every turn on and reply on friction contacts!
I guess the populus are not educated into the benfits of CB's fully yet :y
You are right about the fuses deteriorating, but when fuse sales are so lucrative, where would the business sense be in educating people about circuit breakers
::) :P
Lol, thats typical of me, always looking for the optimal engineering solution!
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
NO ! >:(
That s not a suitable feed for an audio amplifier.
A heavy cable MUST be run through the car, connected directly to the battery and fused in the approprate manner.
:y
TBH It is not really even that suitable for the caravan - I laid another wire for the fridge
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Does any of you guys know where the best place to route an Amlifier live down the Omega from the Battery?
Will have a look tomorow but just wondering if its an easy job.
many thanks :)
Will be drawing around 70 amps on music!
What current are you likely to need? There's generally a caravan feed in the boot along with the lighting feeds. You just need a fuse in he fuse box to power it up.
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Will be running a second battery anyway as the Amplifier draws around 70 Amps or so !
dont you worry ile be doing everything properly!
I just want somthing to force the lower end Frequencies flat and right down to around 25hz!
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Will be running a second battery anyway as the Amplifier draws around 70 Amps or so !
dont you worry ile be doing everything properly!
I just want somthing to force the lower end Frequencies flat and right down to around 25hz!
Good to see someone tackling this properly with a second battery. I would suggest to consider a power cap as well, and if you need further advice, do not hesitate to ask.
8-)
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Will be running a second battery anyway as the Amplifier draws around 70 Amps or so !
dont you worry ile be doing everything properly!
I just want somthing to force the lower end Frequencies flat and right down to around 25hz!
And why do you even think you need something that big to do that?
I have in the past designed subs that will go down to 20Hz which will shake a house running just 200W......efficiency is king!
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Will be running a second battery anyway as the Amplifier draws around 70 Amps or so !
dont you worry ile be doing everything properly!
I just want somthing to force the lower end Frequencies flat and right down to around 25hz!
And why do you even think you need something that big to do that?
I have in the past designed subs that will go down to 20Hz which will shake a house running just 200W......efficiency is king!
Oh dear Marks DTM Calib - Are you really THAT OLD ?
Unless you can burst the welded seams of a car with a stereo, and need to reinforce it with concrete, you are just not trying hard enough.
:P
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Lol......its terrible really.
Here is me, managing design programmes where efficiency and low power consumption is king.!
Do people forget that its the x10 rule for output!
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Efficiency is king but i have a Woofer which has 36mm of excursion and a rather large motor structure so i need a lil bit of D class goodness to give it its Limits!
Althogh in my house i have a ten inch sub in 2cuft tuned to 25hz off 75wrms .....now thats efficency ;D
Power Caps have never been in my Intrest Tbh , ive never gained anything.
You guys seen my old car didnt you?
2x 18 inch Resonant Engineering Woofers
2x Orion HCCA5000's (2.5k each RMS)
4x Hawker Powersafe Batteries (each batt weighs in at 47 kilo's)
110 Amp Alt.
Gave me 153.3 DB at 25hz!
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/29052008186.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/29052008188.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/29052008189.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/29052008192.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/25052008168.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/25052008170.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/26052008178.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/IMAG0289.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/IMAG0291.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/IMAG0293.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/IMAG0294.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/IMAG0243.jpg)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/IMAG0441-1.jpg)
Evan tho this was built for competition and more so me having a soft spot for low frequencies.
This box was 22 cuft and tuned to 25hz with 150 inches of port area.
Did me well
This is my scores
http://streetbassers.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=f7aef0b9c56cedd14f696b32bf5621f9&topic=17.0
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Ive had a soft spot for Audio for many years, Loud music in the Astra was a big hobby at them low frequecies but now im consentrating in SQ in the Mig so i had an old 3 cuft box tuned to 27 hz and im going to us it.
Now im mainley ingo home entertainment.
Running Mostley old skool stuff.
Pioneer SA-540 (1980's ) Amplification for my old Goodmans Magnums (before was it akai that took over and they went crap)
Pioneer SA-250 running sub through also a 50 hz x over wound by myself! for the lo end.
My PC room i have Pioneer SA-540 running Mission 700 series Bookshelves.
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Thats certainly some respectable scores
161dB was our best claim a few years ago -
And as far as SQ goes, unsure how long you`ve been into this, but if you were around in the late 90`s when the first UK car to hit the flat 40 was an Isuzu Trooper that then kicked off the LOUD! Association Sound Off`s around Europe and the long running feature of the Street Bass Challenge on C4 Big Breakfast for a quite a few months -
Well that was us behind it !!
8-)
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Oh, and next time you see the Iceman,
say hi from Dave Watts & Sid Jervis
;)
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Yea i seen it on Big breakfst.
You will know some of my old skool pals
You proberbly know yourself, the old Audio control mic was quite a far bit out compared to the Term Lab.
My system hits 156.2 on the audio control.
All the guys back then and still evan now tune there vehicles high for ease of pressure and cabin peak frequecies.
The most popular right now is Fiat Panda's, there cabin peaks at 72 hz so its perfect.
Only problem with hitting big numbers at such lower frequencies is.... Its alot harder because you loose pressure fron door movement and screen flex!
Altough in the end before selling the car i was going to make a 25mm roof.
The Woofers i was using were actually an SQ Driver, tho they had an awsome x max and motor strength and power handeling, but in the Streetbass world they were always pushed to there limits and got thermal very quickly.........the smell of voice coil i here you say lol hell yes they stunk!
You should know Goeff ( aka firestarter) many vehicles
also there was Paul Coughlin ( Aka Mazdawg on the local forums.) he had then a Golf which did 170 db an audio control
Also Ian Iceman Pinder (Cortina)
Ray Harvey( BMW )
Got theres so many and i keep regular contact with them all.
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Oh, and next time you see the Iceman,
say hi from Dave Watts & Sid Jervis
;)
I see Iceman regular at shows and regular on the Phone TBH ;)
Sign up on Streetbassers.co.uk and you will see most oldskoll chaps on there still!
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Through the bulkhead by squeezing the extra wire through the large grommets in the pollen filter housing, then down under the plastic kick strips. Not too bad a job once you've got the wire through the grommet.
Kevin
take the glove box out its so much easier!!
i found a wire coat hanger a big help when feeding the cable through the grommet under the pollen filter
Doug
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Oh, and next time you see the Iceman,
say hi from Dave Watts & Sid Jervis
;)
I see Iceman regular at shows and regular on the Phone TBH ;)
Sign up on Streetbassers.co.uk and you will see most oldskoll chaps on there still!
Quite a few names I recognise there . .
Its been a few years since I last competed seriously, you never know, I may give it a go again someday. I have a load of old pictures from teh early days of competitions - might try and get them up on our website sometime.
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Althogh in my house i have a ten inch sub in 2cuft tuned to 25hz off 75wrms .....now thats efficency Grin
There's me thinking I like loud music - and I'm currently listening to a 20 watt valve amp. ::)
take the glove box out its so much easier!!
i found a wire coat hanger a big help when feeding the cable through the grommet under the pollen filter
Doug
Yep. It's a long way to reach up to find that grommet without.
In fact, given that the need is for 70 amps and thus the cable is not going to be desperately thin, I would be inclined to drill and grommet a new hole for it.
As to which side to run it, most of the car electrics goes down the passenger side so that is where I routed the power cable. The driver's side sill is pretty much free of electrics (only the radio antenna + phone prewiring IIRC) so that's a better bet for any signal cables.
Kevin
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Oh, and next time you see the Iceman,
say hi from Dave Watts & Sid Jervis
;)
I see Iceman regular at shows and regular on the Phone TBH ;)
Sign up on Streetbassers.co.uk and you will see most oldskoll chaps on there still!
Quite a few names I recognise there . .
Its been a few years since I last competed seriously, you never know, I may give it a go again someday. I have a load of old pictures from teh early days of competitions - might try and get them up on our website sometime.
That would be nice too see!
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Althogh in my house i have a ten inch sub in 2cuft tuned to 25hz off 75wrms .....now thats efficency Grin
There's me thinking I like loud music - and I'm currently listening to a 20 watt valve amp. ::)
take the glove box out its so much easier!!
i found a wire coat hanger a big help when feeding the cable through the grommet under the pollen filter
Doug
Yep. It's a long way to reach up to find that grommet without.
In fact, given that the need is for 70 amps and thus the cable is not going to be desperately thin, I would be inclined to drill and grommet a new hole for it.
As to which side to run it, most of the car electrics goes down the passenger side so that is where I routed the power cable. The driver's side sill is pretty much free of electrics (only the radio antenna + phone prewiring IIRC) so that's a better bet for any signal cables.
Kevin
A valve Amp is my choice over the next coming months!
watts of Valve tho is a diffrent kind of wattage :D
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A valve Amp is my choice over the next coming months!
In-car as well? Now, that I'd like to see. :y
watts of Valve tho is a diffrent kind of wattage :D
Well, they don't make your ears bleed when you start to run out of headroom, I suppose.
Kevin
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Althogh in my house i have a ten inch sub in 2cuft tuned to 25hz off 75wrms .....now thats efficency Grin
There's me thinking I like loud music - and I'm currently listening to a 20 watt valve amp. ::)
take the glove box out its so much easier!!
i found a wire coat hanger a big help when feeding the cable through the grommet under the pollen filter
Doug
Yep. It's a long way to reach up to find that grommet without.
In fact, given that the need is for 70 amps and thus the cable is not going to be desperately thin, I would be inclined to drill and grommet a new hole for it.
As to which side to run it, most of the car electrics goes down the passenger side so that is where I routed the power cable. The driver's side sill is pretty much free of electrics (only the radio antenna + phone prewiring IIRC) so that's a better bet for any signal cables.
Kevin
A valve Amp is my choice over the next coming months!
watts of Valve tho is a diffrent kind of wattage :D
Utter drivel!
What parralel universe does this other type of wattage come from!
Valve amps differ in as much as when over driven they dont clip so hard......but they do have large amounts of 2nd harmonics (which makes them sound soft), average response, mega power hungry, stupidly expensive.....
I prefer a good Mosfet output stage with a single valve based pre-amp if its the valve 'style' you are after!
Much cheaper, more reliable, less power hungry!
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Althogh in my house i have a ten inch sub in 2cuft tuned to 25hz off 75wrms .....now thats efficency Grin
There's me thinking I like loud music - and I'm currently listening to a 20 watt valve amp. ::)
take the glove box out its so much easier!!
i found a wire coat hanger a big help when feeding the cable through the grommet under the pollen filter
Doug
Yep. It's a long way to reach up to find that grommet without.
In fact, given that the need is for 70 amps and thus the cable is not going to be desperately thin, I would be inclined to drill and grommet a new hole for it.
As to which side to run it, most of the car electrics goes down the passenger side so that is where I routed the power cable. The driver's side sill is pretty much free of electrics (only the radio antenna + phone prewiring IIRC) so that's a better bet for any signal cables.
Kevin
A valve Amp is my choice over the next coming months!
watts of Valve tho is a diffrent kind of wattage :D
Utter drivel!
What parralel universe does this other type of wattage come from!
Valve amps differ in as much as when over driven they dont clip so hard......but they do have large amounts of 2nd harmonics (which makes them sound soft), average response, mega power hungry, stupidly expensive.....
I prefer a good Mosfet output stage with a single valve based pre-amp if its the valve 'style' you are after!
Much cheaper, more reliable, less power hungry!
Heat output !!
Sod all to do with audio output, but is often likened to how many bars your fire has on
;D ;D ;D
I seem to recall that there was an In Car Valve Amp in the late nineties? Can`t remember who did it, but retailed at around £3K if my thoughts are correct. Failed to hit the market miserably though.
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Lol, its not that long ago that all car radios had valves in them!
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Althogh in my house i have a ten inch sub in 2cuft tuned to 25hz off 75wrms .....now thats efficency Grin
There's me thinking I like loud music - and I'm currently listening to a 20 watt valve amp. ::)
take the glove box out its so much easier!!
i found a wire coat hanger a big help when feeding the cable through the grommet under the pollen filter
Doug
Yep. It's a long way to reach up to find that grommet without.
In fact, given that the need is for 70 amps and thus the cable is not going to be desperately thin, I would be inclined to drill and grommet a new hole for it.
As to which side to run it, most of the car electrics goes down the passenger side so that is where I routed the power cable. The driver's side sill is pretty much free of electrics (only the radio antenna + phone prewiring IIRC) so that's a better bet for any signal cables.
Kevin
A valve Amp is my choice over the next coming months!
watts of Valve tho is a diffrent kind of wattage :D
Utter drivel!
What parralel universe does this other type of wattage come from!
Valve amps differ in as much as when over driven they dont clip so hard......but they do have large amounts of 2nd harmonics (which makes them sound soft), average response, mega power hungry, stupidly expensive.....
I prefer a good Mosfet output stage with a single valve based pre-amp if its the valve 'style' you are after!
Much cheaper, more reliable, less power hungry!
Chill out Mark it was just a joke.
Meaning i prefere Valve Output than Normal Transistor Amplifictation ;D
BUt within Car audio, USAmps make some wonderfull tube Amlifiers, although im into Car audio i think its a waste of time in a car sound deadened or not.
I dont care what anyone says you cant get 100 percent staging in a car! never mind perfect SQ.
Ide rather that in my House.
This is my Setup now
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i71/reaudio/Image032.jpg)
well...... a good few months back.
Only diffrence is now, ive got a Sub box and the cabeling has been managed!
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Blimey, I have not seen one of those Pinoeer Bi-P's for a long while.
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I have a total of three Pioneer Amps.
2x SA-540's and one SA-520
One will be running through a Receiver for Sub use.
the 520 runs my Goodmans Magnums
and the other runs my Mission 700's in my PC room.
I do like the Amps but ive heard alot better.
I actually prefere the sound of my Mates Yammy natural sound on the Magnums.
The pioneer seems in some what a little harsh compared to the natural sound.
My plan is to run my receiver for bottom end only and the Valve Amp through the Magnums.
The Magnums have been stored for 20 years and are in awsome condition, there also the best speaker ive ever heard.
A good present from my Father in Law. :)
1972 iirc!
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I have Castle speakers in the house, my old Clydes are rears, Keep centre and Pembroke floor standers for front pair.
All driven off a Sony STRDB930 receiver and various sources, including DVD-A and SACD from my DVD Player
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Would anyone recomend a first time owner Valve amp?
Ive heard a site called the affordable valve company but ive also heard there cheap for a reason?
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Would anyone recomend a first time owner Valve amp?
You need to decide exactly what kind you like first, and what type of load you're driving.
I'm not a "single ended triode" fanatic at all, although I have heard one or two setups that sound great. An amp like this won't be at all tolerant of a modern speaker so you'll spend the rest of your days trying to find a speaker that'll be happy with it, and sensitive enough.
A reasonable push-pull pentode amp will drive most modern loads, develop enough output that you won't need super-sensitive speakers (although yours are from an era when sensitivity mattered, so are probably OK) and is probably a better starting point.
The problem with buying amps off the shelf is that most of the cost will be in the mains transformer and output transformers. If these have been skimped on and are not up to the job it's not straightforward or cheap to rectify the problem. Valve amps aren't too hard to build and that may be an option. Better in some ways to buy the best set of transformers you can afford and build the rest of the amp with cheap bits - then you have an upgrade path.
Other options might be to buy some old classic amps like a pair of Quad IIs. They are getting collectable now, unfortunately, so are often silly money but if you can pick up a pair in need of some work at least you know the iron is capable of good sound.
It's a shame because there used to be a lot of good kits around but they seem to be a little few and far between these days. Some nice ones here but a bit pricey! http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/AmpKits.html
Ask around on a few audio forums perhaps?
Kevin
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There was a rather poor wiring job on a Senator which a certain (overly mothered) forum member turned up with to one of our meets!
(http://ftp://images.omegaowners.com/images.omegaowners.com/images/theboy/lakes2007/IMG_1995.JPG)
Sadly I cant find the pic but, it involved the above car with a set of crocodile clips directly onto the battery (no fuse), the wire ran up the bonnet edge and in through the door jam !
Dunno if its ,e or not, but the link came up as passworded.as if the same as the forum I couldnt access it.
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Yes i have signed up on AV Forums.
I have a pair of 1972 Goodmand Magnums, there 7ohms each unit and are very sensative.
With just 50 wrms input im looking at around 30wrms to50 wrms a ch!
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Yes i have signed up on AV Forums.
I have a pair of 1972 Goodmand Magnums, there 7ohms each unit and are very sensative.
With just 50 wrms input im looking at around 30wrms to50 wrms a ch!
Well, a push-pull pair of EL34 / KT66 / KT88 / 6550 / 6CA7's will get you into the bottom end of that power range.
Where are you located? If you're anywhere near me we could always see how they sound driven by my amps?
Kevin
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Im in telford and never have a weekend of as working lol
Thats very good of you to offer tho!
Will look up those model codes thanks :)
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Any valve amp kit will be pricey now, the output transfomrers alone will see little change from 100 quid for a pair, then there is the mains transformers, caps and the bottles them selves.
Hence the chioce of Valve preamp and good Mosfet output stage!
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I doubt My Pioneers will make a good output stage over Valve Pre Amping ?
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I doubt My Pioneers will make a good output stage over Valve Pre Amping ?
Correct, they were fairly average in thier day in reality.
But, its much cheaper to put together a good Mosfet output stage and use a single or double valve pre-amp setup to get the distortion valve sound you seek.
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I doubt My Pioneers will make a good output stage over Valve Pre Amping ?
Correct, they were fairly average in thier day in reality.
But, its much cheaper to put together a good Mosfet output stage and use a single or double valve pre-amp setup to get the distortion valve sound you seek.
The clip is more a natural sound so i recall?
A nicer sounding Harmonic rather than a nasty square wave on a Scope!
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I doubt My Pioneers will make a good output stage over Valve Pre Amping ?
Correct, they were fairly average in thier day in reality.
But, its much cheaper to put together a good Mosfet output stage and use a single or double valve pre-amp setup to get the distortion valve sound you seek.
The clip is more a natural sound so i recall?
A nicer sounding Harmonic rather than a nasty square wave on a Scope!
Yep....they 'softly' distort where as a transistor (bipolar or Mosfet) when saturated simply connects the DC rail directly to the output for the short period of clipping.
If you ever did any fourier analysis (a nasty bit of integrtion by parts required), you will under stand how all waveforms are in reality the sum of many sine waves.....and hence under clipping you get 3rd, 5th, 7th.....etc harmonics produced!.
Valves however, distort when not clipping....its the distortion that makes them sound 'soft'.
So, if you want true to life and faithful reproduction of what was recored then its a top notch Mosfet amp and a Cd player.....but many people cant live with a 'pure' sound.
And many main street amps are tuned to a persons ears....e.g. Technics has base boost as standard to give a low down characteristic and Sony even tune thier QS amps to suit a UK 'ear'!....
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I doubt My Pioneers will make a good output stage over Valve Pre Amping ?
Correct, they were fairly average in thier day in reality.
But, its much cheaper to put together a good Mosfet output stage and use a single or double valve pre-amp setup to get the distortion valve sound you seek.
The clip is more a natural sound so i recall?
A nicer sounding Harmonic rather than a nasty square wave on a Scope!
Yep....they 'softly' distort where as a transistor (bipolar or Mosfet) when saturated simply connects the DC rail directly to the output for the short period of clipping.
If you ever did any fourier analysis (a nasty bit of integrtion by parts required), you will under stand how all waveforms are in reality the sum of many sine waves.....and hence under clipping you get 3rd, 5th, 7th.....etc harmonics produced!.
Valves however, distort when not clipping....its the distortion that makes them sound 'soft'.
So, if you want true to life and faithful reproduction of what was recored then its a top notch Mosfet amp and a Cd player.....but many people cant live with a 'pure' sound.
And many main street amps are tuned to a persons ears....e.g. Technics has base boost as standard to give a low down characteristic and Sony even tune thier QS amps to suit a UK 'ear'!....
CD Heard enough higher spec stuff to realise that CD is limited and that the two super formats were audably better, and I would go as far to say that DVD-A was slightly better than SACD.
A good DVD-A sounds like you are there :y
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Im really after a more natural sound stage, live a live band playing infront of me !
Now while we are on subject theres somthing i need to get clear Mark.....
A valve Amp only produces a possitive push does it not? and when required a transistor negativally pulls back the wave to make a full wave from Polarity to Polarity?
Or is there just two Valves per push and pull?
Im sure some have a Transistor for negative pulling, where have i read this :-/
Or is this somthing ive mixed up? or is this another kind of Valve Amp?
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The push-pull output stages are different to that of a standard transistor based output.....they rely and driving current in opposing direction through a transformer i.e.:
(http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/KT88-Push-Pull-Tube-Amp/12SL7-KT88-Push-Pull-Tube-Amp-Schematic.png)
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A valve Amp only produces a possitive push does it not? and when required a transistor negativally pulls back the wave to make a full wave from Polarity to Polarity?
Or is there just two Valves per push and pull?
Im sure some have a Transistor for negative pulling, where have i read this
I think what you're getting at is that transistors come in both polarities - NPN and PNP in the bipolar world, and often (but not always) the devices in a transistor output stage will be a "complimentary pair" - an NPN transistor feeding current into the positive half of the cycle and a PNP sinking current to a neghative supply rail during the negative half.
Valves have no equivalent to the PNP device so, in Mark's example above, both halves of the push pull arrangement are drawing current from a positive supply rail. The transformer inverts the output of one of the valves to form the "negative half" of the cycle.
Kevin
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A good transistor amp actually uses a quasi-complimentary output stage to get better matching.
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Yes that helps see clearer!
Thanks.
I was recomended this as a start, although i got it offered at the price of 500 pounds.
http://www.iconaudio.com/la4.html
How would you rate these products?
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Don't know those particular products myself but that's just a pre-amp meaning that you'll need a power amp too.
Take a step back first: What source do you listen to most of the time? If it's vinyl there may be some mileage in getting a nice valve preamp with a phono stage although 500 quid is a lot to spend on one, and that one doesn'[t even appear to have a phono stage. It's just an input selector and a volume control. Personally I think a phono stage might as well be solid state. They are much quieter.
If you're going to be listening to sources with a line-level output that will just be an expensive volume control because these sources will drive a valve power amp directy. Better to spend the money on a power amp.
Something like this would be a much better way to spend 500 quid there IMHO. http://www.iconaudio.com/Stereo25.html
Kevin
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Forgot to say - first of all, listen to a few of these devices and make sure they're what you want.
Kevin
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I listen to anything between the lines of Some Jazz to Drum n bass.
Also a big metal fan.
I have a large varient in music taste.
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There are what I can only describe as 'rather expensive'
I would go down the kit route, importing one from the US is a viable option and most of what you need to do is basic soldering and tin bashing to knock up an enclosure.
This is a good little unit
http://store.tubedepot.com/diy-k-16ls.html
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Or, cheaper and lower power but with lots of 'modification advice available'
http://store.tubedepot.com/diy-k12m.html
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It's a shame these are no longer available:
http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1790&page=3
That's what I started off with and it was about right. Reasonable quality parts and based on a proven design so you ended up with a good sounding amplifier from day one. Plenty of tweaks you can do but you won't end up having to chuck it out and start again. Useable power output (20w RMS rated but will make 30-35 watts before distortion goes skyward and is in class A up to 15 watts). IIRC, it cost somewhere between £200 and £300 to build mine. I did build it as a dual monoblock though. The power supply was woefully underrated to cope with a stereo pair.
It does look like the original author of the Maplin article might be gearing up to sell kits again (he still sells the transformers - NOTE: the ones Maplin now sell are not as good as the originals):
http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/homepage.html
Kevin
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The trouble with the Maplin kits was the price (to high) and when teted, they got mixed reviews (I guess to much corner cutting on the components)
I remember the mains transformers getting stupidly hot.
I am thinking of getting one of the US kits for myself given the excellent price.
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The trouble with the Maplin kits was the price (to high) and when teted, they got mixed reviews (I guess to much corner cutting on the components)
I remember the mains transformers getting stupidly hot.
The mains transformers were simply not up to running a stereo pair.
They take 80 watts idle power consumption per channel and you can tell just by looking at that transformer that it's going to be on the ragged edge delivering 160 watts before you even start! Add to that the radiated heat from the valve anodes and it does get unacceptably hot.
As a pair of monoblocks, however, they are not bad. The mains transformers buzz a little more than I would like, mainly, I suspect, because they did away with a choke input filter.
The amps themselves are fine, though. They have been in use as my main amps pretty much continuously since I built them in '96/97 and are still on the original valves, still sound good and measure well.
The only thing that lets them down, IMHO, is the LF response. Partly, perhaps, because the output transformers are not as generously rated as they could be and partly down to the cathode bias arrangement, which "pumps up" as the amp is driven into class B trying to drive LF, biasing the output valves further off. Suffice it to say that if you like punchy bass when it's turned up loud these might not be the amps for you. They can sound little wooly on some material. I will eventually change mine to a fixed bias setup or add an op-amp bias servo so I can ground the cathodes, and see what that brings. Of course the ideal arrangement would probably be to filter out the LF and use a solid state amp for that, and let the valves handle the midrange where they excel.
I am thinking of getting one of the US kits for myself given the excellent price.
It would be interesting to see what they're like.
Kevin
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The K12 design gets some excellent ratings
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/K-12M_bh/
Plus easy enough to get it up that extra notch with a very small amount of fiddling with.
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Mark those kits look very intresting!
Are they fairly easy to solder up?
I am a dab hand with woodwork so a case would not be a problem.
My Router will sort that1!
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I'm sure one of us would happily do the soldering, if you like, although none of it will be that challenging.
Kevin
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That would be exelent Kev, could have dinner at mine and a coffee or two ;D
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Yep, about an hour or twos soldering in that tops.
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I think my Goodmans in there life in the day may have already seem Valve Amplification?
Would be nice to give them it back!