Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: feeutfo on 05 December 2010, 00:10:19
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Siver omega, front seats have no heat at all. Lights light up on the dash switches so not the fuse, plus I think that fuse runs half dozen major systems on the car anyway so sure I would notice those...
So I guess that only leaves the seat pads . But I'm having trouble believing that all 4 pads have failed, both sides, base and back. Can't think of any other reason for them not to work, can you?
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Does seem like a bit of coincidence that all pads would die at the same time. Can only suggest that there is a common feed wire from the fuse to the heater pads that is open circuit.
I would be checking all connection plugs between fuse and seats. :-/
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have same problem in one of mine - does anyone have a wiring diagram of the later 5-setting seat heaters ?
might have to do one if not available.
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have same problem in one of mine - does anyone have a wiring diagram of the later 5-setting seat heaters ?
might have to do one if not available.
Yep, almost certainly. :y
Kevin
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have same problem in one of mine - does anyone have a wiring diagram of the later 5-setting seat heaters ?
might have to do one if not available.
Yep, almost certainly. :y
Kevin
Pm sent, Thanks to Mr jimbo. Two fuses involved by the looks, 15 and 29. Not checked 29 yet.
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..... But I'm having trouble believing that all 4 pads have failed, both sides, base and back. Can't think of any other reason for them not to work, can you?
It doesn't need all 4 to fail for them to not work. Base & back elements are wired in series with each other so you only need one of them to fail to get no heat at all on a seat. I wouldn't rule out 2 failed base elements. :y
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..... But I'm having trouble believing that all 4 pads have failed, both sides, base and back. Can't think of any other reason for them not to work, can you?
It doesn't need all 4 to fail for them to not work. Base & back elements are wired in series with each other so you only need one of them to fail to get no heat at all on a seat. I wouldn't rule out 2 failed base elements. :y
Ah, ok. It has done 137k. Will bare in mind. :y
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As Andy B says, each seat has the base and back wired in series.
For eg, if (when!!) I unplug the heater from the seat extender on the MV6, none of that seat will heat, as the circuit is broken...
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Don't suppose there is any chance of repairing the pads if failed? Off to the dealers I suppose?
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Don't suppose there is any chance of repairing the pads if failed? Off to the dealers I suppose?
depends where it's broken. As said plenty of time here, you might get away with the removal of a short section of element. :y :y
And if leather, your parts desk will only be able to give you the option of a brand new cover with the heating element sewn to it :-? I've never priced one, but I bet it'll be a couple of hundred quid even for the smaller base cushion. ;)
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had a quick look once - the element is inseperable from the seat cover.
On mine - I think i'll not have the control unit fitted, it's an ex-plod retro-fitted with heated seats and switches.
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Don't suppose there is any chance of repairing the pads if failed? Off to the dealers I suppose?
depends where it's broken. As said plenty of time here, you might get away with the removal of a short section of element. :y :y
And if leather, your parts desk will only be able to give you the option of a brand new cover with the heating element sewn to it :-? I've never priced one, but I bet it'll be a couple of hundred quid even for the smaller base cushion. ;)
BMW do a separate pad for e39 seats, which is very similar design to mv6 seats with the extendable bit under the back of your legs. Also do the hog rings and pliers. Wonder if they could be made to fit?
Although I will need normal pads for elite seats.
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Might be worth a chat with Pedro on here, sure he has retrimmed Calibra seats and fitted replacement heating pads to others.
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Is there any way to check the heated pads with a meter without having to strip the seat covers off ?
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Is there any way to check the heated pads with a meter without having to strip the seat covers off ?
I imagine a meter would show it...
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Could try an upholsterer. Only one I can think of is Newtrim in Oxford...
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Also do the hog rings and pliers. .......
Why are you going to need new hog rings? Just open up what you've already got & re-close them again. If you open them by twisting them instead of splaying them wider and then close them the same way, it's easier to get the two ends to meet each other, all with normal snipe/long nose pliers.
If you reckon an Astra G seat base heater would fit, you'd be welcome to the one I've got in my garage for the cost postage. :y
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Are the seat base pad and seat back pad seperate and connected to each other with a snap connector or are they all one unit ?
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I imagine a meter would show it...
...... and if you checked for continuity at the plug it'll show that you have a break somewhere ...... which you already knew ;). It won't tell you whether it's the base or back section. You'd have to disconnect the two elements to determine which had a problem
I thought it should be you telling me the basic electrickery bits! ;D ;D ;D
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Is there any way to check the heated pads with a meter without having to strip the seat covers off ?
I imagine a meter would show it...
Wonder if you could disconnect the plug on the leg extension,and put a 12v tester on each one of the plugs,at least then you can work out which part has a fault,surely its just live and earth. :-/
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Are the seat base pad and seat back pad seperate and connected to each other with a snap connector or are they all one unit ?
a plug and socket/snap connector. :y :y :y
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So, if they are seperate units could you not just use a replacement heater pad from a cloth seat and overlay it on top of the broken heater pad ?
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Is there any way to check the heated pads with a meter without having to strip the seat covers off ?
I imagine a meter would show it...
Wonder if you could disconnect the plug on the leg extension,and put a 12v tester on each one of the plugs,at least then you can work out which part has a fault,surely its just live and earth. :-/
12v and zero volts earth, but all in series so you'd need to disconnect and bridge appropriate connectors along the circuit. :y
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So, if they are seperate units could you not just use a replacement heater pad from a cloth seat and overlay it on top of the broken heater pad ?
yes! :y :y :y :y :y
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Both of mine seem to have packed up as well, but my side did get excessively warm the last time I used it when it was working, almost to the point of burning my a++e!
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..... almost to the point of burning my a++e!
Oooer! :o ;) :y
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So, if they are seperate units could you not just use a replacement heater pad from a cloth seat and overlay it on top of the broken heater pad ?
yes! :y :y :y :y :y
Looks like a trip to the dealers for some prices then.
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Both of mine seem to have packed up as well, but my side did get excessively warm the last time I used it when it was working, almost to the point of burning my a++e!
This is possibly a symptom of pending failure. My drivers seat was excessively hot at a point under my left cheek, so much so that I stopped using it.
Now it doesn't heat at all. >:(
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I have a vague recollection that replacing the pads on the drivers seat on my previous T plate Omega was £300 and the stealer had to order pads in from the continent. They then proceeded to send the seat off to a third party to do the work. Worth it in the end as one of the heater pads would burn my bum very quickly.
As for the current facelift, passenger seat only seems to heat the seat back and they quoted £600 this time round. Seeing as I never sit in that seat, I'll just keep an eye out for someone breaking an interior...
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Now it doesn't heat at all. >:(
the seat or your left bum cheek? ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
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Both of mine seem to have packed up as well, but my side did get excessively warm the last time I used it when it was working, almost to the point of burning my a++e!
This is possibly a symptom of pending failure. My drivers seat was excessively hot at a point under my left cheek, so much so that I stopped using it.
Now it doesn't heat at all. >:(
Ditto, other than it was more towards my right cheek! ;) :y
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Now we're scraping the bottom. ;D ;D
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Now we're scraping the bottom. ;D ;D
Funnily enough I was rubbing it furiously after it started to singe! ;D :y
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I imagine a meter would show it...
...... and if you checked for continuity at the plug it'll show that you have a break somewhere ...... which you already knew ;). It won't tell you whether it's the base or back section. You'd have to disconnect the two elements to determine which had a problem
I thought it should be you telling me the basic electrickery bits! ;D ;D ;D
Been a while since I looked under a front seat, but would have thought the connectors between the 2 would have been visible/accessible?
Facelifts have the extra complication of the stat in the seat, so you do need to get to the heaters.
All that said, if you have to strip the seat, I'm sure it would make more sense to replace all pads?
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All that said, if you have to strip the seat, I'm sure it would make more sense to replace all pads?
True, but if they're sewn to your leather upholstery, you're stuffed. ;) ;)
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All that said, if you have to strip the seat, I'm sure it would make more sense to replace all pads?
True, but if they're sewn to your leather upholstery, you're stuffed. ;) ;)
Easy solution - get cloth, much warmer :y. And lets face it, non sports leather in Omegas is a bit naff...
I assume that a pad behind the leather would work, albeit not as effectively?
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Easy solution - get cloth, much warmer :y.
is it :-? doesn't look as nice though ;)
And lets face it, non sports leather in Omegas is a bit naff...
no memory :D. I don't expect my top end model to have manual adjustment for some seat positions. ;)
I assume that a pad behind the leather would work, albeit not as effectively?
I reckon so. :y
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doesn't look as nice though ;)
We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
Which one? ::)
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
I think you need to reread, I'm sure I said my Elite was far from 'The Best' - it has Elite leather. Yuk.
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Just to add my 2 pence worth. I bought a heated rear seat to strip for the heater pads. well even wth them in a nce warm garage and on the bench you really need to be an upholsterer to get them out wthout damaging the seat material. On elite seats (probably all seats wth heaters) the pads are sewn to the fabric or leather. I gave up in the end, and bought a full set of cloth elite seats and fitted them.
If anyone would like a partially dsmantled elite rear seat set they can have them for free (saloon) one backrest section parially stripped wth damaged cloth.
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
I think you need to reread, I'm sure I said my Elite was far from 'The Best' - it has Elite leather. Yuk.
Erm, think carefully. Whos car is it? Exactly? I'll tell her you know. .....I will !
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
Which one? ::)
Why the Black one of course.... wouldnt be silver. Bloody clitoris cars they are....
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I have to say, having test driven an Elite with leather and then got straight into a cloth MV6 there was only going to be one type of seat under consideration for my Omega. ;)
Kevin
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I have to say, having test driven an Elite with leather and then got straight into a cloth MV6 there was only going to be one type of seat under consideration for my Omega. ;)
Kevin
It's funny how people differ so much.... Even though it's a pain in the arse (literally) with extremely hot/cold weather, I couldn't own a car without leather now. Just the ease of keeping it clean is bonus enough for me.
As said though, horses for courses. If we were all the same, we'd be very boring! :y
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Both of mine seem to have packed up as well, but my side did get excessively warm the last time I used it when it was working, almost to the point of burning my a++e!
This is possibly a symptom of pending failure. My drivers seat was excessively hot at a point under my left cheek, so much so that I stopped using it.Now it doesn't heat at all. >:(
Doesn't that make it difficult when you do a Number 2 Kneepad? :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
Which one? ::)
Why the Black one of course.... wouldnt be silver. Bloody clitoris cars they are....
[/highlight]
So basically, i'm driving a silver clitoris that is only 2/3rds the size of the 'real thing' that couldn't get me a date this side of the 'Ides of March' because it's beneath contempt? :o
I'm feeling very unloved tonight Guys, I might trade it in for a Yugo! ;D ;D ;D
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
Which one? ::)
Why the Black one of course.... wouldnt be silver. Bloody clitoris cars they are....
[/highlight]
So basically, i'm driving a silver clitoris that is only 2/3rds the size of the 'real thing' that couldn't get me a date this side of the 'Ides of March' because it's beneath contempt? :o
I'm feeling very unloved tonight Guys, I might trade it in for a Yugo! ;D ;D ;D
There There! At least it isn't Champagne coloured, like mine. As mine is Champagne coloured, about this date, pretty boy! ;D
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
Which one? ::)
Why the Black one of course.... wouldnt be silver. Bloody clitoris cars they are....
[/highlight]
So basically, i'm driving a silver clitoris that is only 2/3rds the size of the 'real thing' that couldn't get me a date this side of the 'Ides of March' because it's beneath contempt? :o
I'm feeling very unloved tonight Guys, I might trade it in for a Yugo! ;D ;D ;D
There There! At least it isn't Champagne coloured, like mine. As mine is Champagne coloured, about this date, pretty boy! ;D
[/highlight]
Ahem! (says in a very feminine voice) I think you might have the wrong idea sailor, phil is short for philicity as STMO will no doubt confirm if asked! :-* ;)
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We will have to agree to disagree on that one - I think Elite leather looks awful! ;D
:P :P :P :P ;)
Also, the leather in my 03 Elite is nowhere near as comfy as the cloth in my old tractor (98 Elite)
TB has his “mines best” tinted specticles on again bythe sound of it, which is rubbish!.... as everyone knows “MINE is best” :P
Which one? ::)
Why the Black one of course.... wouldnt be silver. Bloody clitoris cars they are....
[/highlight]
So basically, i'm driving a silver clitoris that is only 2/3rds the size of the 'real thing' that couldn't get me a date this side of the 'Ides of March' because it's beneath contempt? :o
I'm feeling very unloved tonight Guys, I might trade it in for a Yugo! ;D ;D ;D
There There! At least it isn't Champagne coloured, like mine. As mine is Champagne coloured, about this date, pretty boy! ;D
[/highlight]
Ahem! (says in a very feminine voice) I think you might have the wrong idea sailor, phil is short for philicity as STMO will no doubt confirm if asked! :-* ;)
;D ;D ;D Oh, I am aware! But driving a big car like that......................? ;D ;D ;D ;D
*hides*
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anyone know where the control units live ?
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anyone know where the control units live ?
They are after the connector into the seat so I'd say they are probably in or under the seat itself.
Kevin
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The underside of a driver side facelift Elite seat.
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii316/mrjimbo-2008/Seatconnector003.jpg)
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii316/mrjimbo-2008/Seatconnector004.jpg)
I'll get a better layout of the wiring in a bit :y
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(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii316/mrjimbo-2008/Seatconnector003.jpg)
White plug - 15 wires.........Spiegel
Yellow
Grey
Blue
Blue/White
Grey
Grey/Yellow
Grey/Green
Black/Red
Black/Brown
Blue/Red
Black/Grey
Black
Green/Grey
Grey
Green
Black plug........Spannugs versorgung
Brown/White Red Red (Red and Brown
Grey/White Black Brown wires bridged as
Unoccupied Brown guide to retro
fitting how to)
White/Blue/Black plug...........Tastature
Blue/White Blue Blue/Pink
Black Blue/Red Blue
Unoccupied Blue/Yellow Blue/Green
Blue plug.................Langs
Red/Black Grey
Green/White Grey/Red
Red/White
Black plug..................Hohe vorne
Red/White Grey
Green/White Grey/Brown
Red/Black
White/Black plug......................Hohe hinter
Red/White Grey
Blue/White Grey/Brown
Red/Black
Black plug......................Lehne
Red Grey
Yellow Grey/Brown
Black
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the car in question is an MV6, so I was assuming it's not got that box of tricks.
will do a bit of detective work if it ever gets any warmer.
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White plug - 15 wires.........Spiegel = mirror
Black plug........Spannugs versorgung = Power Supply
White/Blue/Black plug...........Tastature - keypad
Blue plug.................Langs = along (front / back)
Black plug..................Hohe vorne = front height
White/Black plug......................Hohe hinter = rear height
Black plug......................Lehne = backrest
So yes, that all appears to be seat memory related.
Kevin
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So, does any of that refer to the heater pads in any way ? or do i have to go back out in the cold again ;D
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The wording moulded into the black box looks relevant to the particular plug, or is that too easy? :-/
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Yeah thats right and as Kevin says it looks to relate to the movement of the seat and the memory side of things but where the heating side of things is appears to be somewhere other than that little box of tricks.
On that diagram i sent you K183 is the controller, but where does it live ? is it in the seat somewhere or is it buried in the bowels of the wiring loom, behind the dash perhaps ?
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Seat heating connection goes into the seat on an 8 pin connector, long and thin, with 4 groups of 2 pins by the look of it.
Wire colours - Black and yellow, Black and blue and Brown.
Kevin
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At the bottom centre of the picture you can just see a round hole moulded into the seat foam with a wire going into it, at the bottom of the moulded hole is a connector with 2 Black/Blue wires to it but i cant manage to pull enough slack up to see whats below.
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii316/mrjimbo-2008/Seatconnector004.jpg)
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OK. That wire from the foam seems to go to a bunch of connectors on the left hand edge of the picture. Is one of those an 8 pin like I described? If so, I guess the controller is embedded in the seat. ::)
Thanks for the help. :y
Kevin
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It goes across the base of the seat, under the outside runner and emerges behind the trim cover where the buttons for the memory and position are.
There looks to be a few more wires in there but i need to get the trim panel off and have a look tomorrow.
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Much appreciated. :-* :y
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I'll get onto it later and see if i can trace the wiring a bit further and perhaps we can manage to sort a way of repairing them, i've got 4 front seats and a couple of rear bases here that need looking into ;D
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I've taken the side panel off but the cable doesn't come through to there, under closer inspection it looks like the cable goes to a Grey box buried in the seat foam, the same as the ones on the rear base but where the wiring goes to from there i have no idea at the moment.
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii316/mrjimbo-2008/Seatconnector.jpg)
I now need to raise the seat away from the runners so i can get a better view and access but as the seat is out of the car i have no way of powering it up and i can't find any manual winders. Is there any way of powering upthe seat motors easily without putting the seat back into the car ?
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Some thoughts having repaired many seats whilst between jobs last year.
You can just pop the seat into the car, connect it up to raise it without having to do the bolts up again as it is impossible to remove the screws without the seat being fully up.
The grey box is actually a relay which is cunningly wired so as to allow a separate thermostat unit to be used. Be warned however that with the seat element O/C you will still get current flow via the relay coil making it look as it the element is working whereas it isn't really. When you put it all back again you MUST put the thermostat probe exactly where it came from. If not then the on/off temp will change and it it goes outside a comfortable range you will end up with a burnt b*m! The cloth seat elements have a built-in thermostat.
Unless there is a simple break then these are difficult to mend. In the past I've laid cloth elements under the leather covers. Even if there is a break it often then fails somewhere else a few days/weeks later.
The basic problem is that the leather seats use a very very very fine multi-strand resistance wire with dozens & dozens of conductors. Over time some of these fail putting greater emphasis on the remaining ones - which is why one of the failure modes is a very low heat as only a few strands are still conducting. The cloth seats have a single & much bigger conductor - its more liable to physical damage - like someone kneeling and then just stop working. The pads were available from Vx but are no longer available. In the past I've stripped down perfectly working cloth seats just to salvage the pads. When available the pads were about £50 each?
MV6 leather dosn't have sewn/stranded elements, they use the same pads as the cloth seats - much easier to work with. So the good news for leather MV6 owners is but cloth seats for spare parts.
Elite cloth seats are built in the same way as the leather seats - so if you are looking for donor seats then restrict yourself to GLS/CD/CDX cloth.
The current draw is about 5.5 amps and the seats have a resistance of just over 2 ohms per seat - this means that each base or back has a resistance of just over 1 ohm each.
Another trick is to use small cable ties instead if hog-rings when re-building the seat, Much easier to work with IMHO.
HTH
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I won't be able to do much on the seat now for a few days as my holiday is finished and i'm back at work, but next rest day (Monday) i'll pop it back in the car and raise the seat fromthe runners and strip it further, should find out a bit more with less stuff in the way ;D
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i'll be w8ing for sure.. my driver seat doesn't work :((, and with this cold weather its a pain in the [smiley=lipsrsealed.gif].
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If you want to join a broken stranded heated element then just look for the burnt bit as a starter.
Then you will need a very sharp blade to cut into the foam to locate both ends, once you have the ends then clean them and splice in a short length of cable.
As I said before, the chances are that the fault will appear somewhere else before too long.
Good luck
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Whats best for that ? Copper core wire or steel ?
I take it you remove the insulation as well
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The heating wire is very thin multi-stranded bare wire. It can be soldered to after you have cleaned the burnt end bits off. So, just use some copper wire of the correct size and all will be ok. I always use insulated copper wire for the repairs as you need a little extra length to play with and I'd rather not have too much bare wire inside the seat.
The stranded wire uses the foam of the seat pads as it's insulation.
HTH - Rob