Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: lozzzzzz on 25 September 2011, 21:42:55
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Hi folks, thanks again for my warm welcome a few weeks back.
I'm wondering what people think would be a safe rev limit to set my ECU to (aftermarket management in a Scimitar). The engine is very ported in a number of areas, with full on three branch exhaust manifolds, and a very unrestrictive inlet track, the torque curve will have moved up the rev range. So higher revs will yeild a good hike in power (fingers crossed). But I really don't want to risk damaging it at all, it needs to be reliable and bullet proof.
I've searched the forum and found that folk seem to think the MV6 limit is about 6750rpm with rumours of the police cars going to 6800-6900rpm (this was a police engine).
I guess I'm wondering if anyone has heard of a standard bottom end coping with 7000rpm all day, or conversly has anyone heard any horror stories after a remap and slight raise in limiter.
My current thinking is to go with a solf cut (retarded spark) at 6750 and a hard cut (no spark) at 6800.
Thanks for any comments you could leave.
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Hi folks, thanks again for my warm welcome a few weeks back.
I'm wondering what people think would be a safe rev limit to set my ECU to (aftermarket management in a Scimitar). The engine is very ported in a number of areas, with full on three branch exhaust manifolds, and a very unrestrictive inlet track, the torque curve will have moved up the rev range. So higher revs will yeild a good hike in power (fingers crossed). But I really don't want to risk damaging it at all, it needs to be reliable and bullet proof.
I've searched the forum and found that folk seem to think the MV6 limit is about 6750rpm with rumours of the police cars going to 6800-6900rpm (this was a police engine).
I guess I'm wondering if anyone has heard of a standard bottom end coping with 7000rpm all day, or conversly has anyone heard any horror stories after a remap and slight raise in limiter.
My current thinking is to go with a solf cut (retarded spark) at 6750 and a hard cut (no spark) at 6800.
Thanks for any comments you could leave.
I dont think the standard bottom end will have problem with 7000 RPM.. its the coolant and oil cooling issues that will create problem before everything ..and besides whole day is really a tall order imo ;D :y
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Well this sounds promising, the cooling system is very much simpler in the Scimitar, with a nice alloy radiator and a massive 19 oil cooler with larger bore pipes to take care of the oil cooling.
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Well this sounds promising, the cooling system is very much simpler in the Scimitar, with a nice alloy radiator and a massive 19 oil cooler with larger bore pipes to take care of the oil cooling.
this is good news..
imo its good idea to see oil (very important) and coolant temperature say at 6000 rpm after 30 secs.. (hot engine - outside temperature and speed important) then gradually increase the rpm(250 rpm) and time (15 secs+ ) and watch the temperatures .. if oil or coolant quickly goes up stop the test..
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and I must add I dont think it will be necessary to stay at the rev limit for long times because even in races it will hardly happen..you must shift or you will loose time..
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during those kind of tune ups , you must be able to measure-listen engine knocks, but dont know how as I'm not a tuner..
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Omegas are particulalry poor in terms of bottom-end reliability. Caused mainly by high coolant temperature selected by GM in the quest for lower emissions. You too will have the high coolant temperature ( and hence high oil temperature ) unless you've managed to change the thermostat for a lower setting. And that's true despite the external oil cooler I'm afraid.
Also, unless you've changed the cams, your torque peak will be no further up the rev range than a standard engine. The shape of the power curve ( at the top end ) is dictated by the cam timing, whilst the lower parts of the rev range can be boosted a bit by the dual-ram gubbins.
no-one has ever seen a different setting for Police spec cars, although we're aware of the rumours.
If you're able to go beyond the current engine speed range due to cams, etc. then I'd advise the following :-
a new set of big-end bearings.
a sump clean-out ( pay particular attention to the stuff you'll find inside the oil pick-up )
a lower coolant mass temperature
full-synthetic oil to prevent degraded performance with the high coolant temperature
an external oil cooler ( already done in your case )
and then I'd explore the territory up to 7000 rpm.
what does your inlet system consist of ?
and which fuel injection are you using ?
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and I should have asked - is it 2.5, 2.6, 3.0 or 3.2 ?
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checking the net, ideal engine oil temperature range seems to be between 82 and 98 Celcius.. ???
;D when I hammer miggy for few minutes in summer against hills (and it doesnt mean full rev) it quickly passes 100 celcius even with a new thermostat.. so its easy to estimate oil temperature exceeds 100 celcius even in normal operation .. :(
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checking the net, ideal engine oil temperature range seems to be between 82 and 98 Celcius.. ???
;D when I hammer miggy for few minutes in summer against hills (and it doesnt mean full rev) it quickly passes 100 celcius even with a new thermostat.. so its easy to estimate oil temperature exceeds 100 celcius even in normal operation .. :(
so fully synthetic will be definitely necessary if you are going to rev it for prolonged periods
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checking the net, ideal engine oil temperature range seems to be between 82 and 98 Celcius.. ???
;D when I hammer miggy for few minutes in summer against hills (and it doesnt mean full rev) it quickly passes 100 celcius even with a new thermostat.. so its easy to estimate oil temperature exceeds 100 celcius even in normal operation .. :(
so fully synthetic will be definitely necessary if you are going to rev it for prolonged periods
if I remember correctly , Omegatoy solved the turbo miggies problem with changing to the fully synthetic but cant remember SAE number.. :-\
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My current thinking is to go with a solf cut (retarded spark) at 6750 and a hard cut (no spark) at 6800.
That's about what the standard ECU does, IIRC, so that would be a safe starting point IMHO.
As said, though, standard cams will peak at about 6K RPM so little benefit in going any higher. If in doubt a dyno pull will reveal where it's peaking.
Of course, with a less restrictive intake setup it might now respond well to cams that allow higher revs but there isn't exactly a wealth of experience here on what you can get away with so start small and work your way up.
3.2 has a forged crank so might be a stronger bottom end but, if, as 2woody intimates, the problems are with lubricating the bottom end it doesn't really matter how strong you make it. :-\
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2woody,
The modifications include
The inlet, will have two cone filters hidden under the front nose cone (don't like the boy racer look) for a cold air feed from infront of hte radiator. Followed by two large bore ducts striaght to the ported (but not enlarged) throttle bodies. The the plenum and ali runners have been matched, the plastic base plate has been ported a lot to take it out to the same cross sectional area as the the rest of the inlet runner system (there was a large venturi here, great for tumble at low RPM, but aweful for high end flow). The the ports in the head have been lightly ported, the conbustion chamber left alone. the exhaust ports have been a little more agressively taken out and the lump for introducing air has been completely removed, then the ports taken out to match the new hader plates. The exhaust headers are full 27" by 1.5" primaries, followed by two 2.5" SS exhausts that remain separate right through (no CATS obviously).
I see what you're saying about the cam timing, but I'm still expecting the peak to shimmy up the revs a little due to less retriction at high flow rates (read high rpm).
I wasn't aware it had a bad rep for bottom end relaibility. I need it to be tough in keeping with the rest of the car, I need to be able to bounce of the limiter and not worry. When I asked the questions I was expecting an answer like "the big end bolts stretch at 7k" or something similar. But its cooling thats the issue.
I've bl**dy forgotted which thermostat I chose when I got a new one, but I would imagine I went for the hottor one :-\
The oil should definatly be cooler though as the new oilstat will force oil to the cooler at a (lower) temp (not yet) chosen by me :)
The ECU is a Canems jobby, with a MAP sensor added. Oh yer and its a 3.0 MV6, Its late one I think 2000 ish, the grill is part of the bonnet, rather than the bumper.
Cem,
I think I will change to fully synthetic after its fully mapped and all the teething problems are sorted.
I fancy going the last little bit and getting cams and enlarging the throttle body, but it costs so much, the cams are over £300 and the throttle body is a lot too, and its a bit beyond my lathing skills for now :(
But I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a good power figure, 250 would be ace :)
The Canems ECU folk did a project capri MV6 (3.0) and got 238hp with the only modifications being a different inlet system upstream of the throttles and different exhausts downstream of the (rather shocking) log manifolds (oh and one of there ECUs).
Thanks for your help with this one folks, I think with all that in mind I'm best sticking to the standard limiter.
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Followed by two large bore ducts striaght to the ported (but not enlarged) throttle bodies.
You appear not to be using the lower inlet change-over valves (the bagpipes) - this will cost you a lot in low-down torque.
Are you using the upper change-over valve in the plenum top ? - if not, then you'll cost yourself a lot of mid-range torque.
I see what you're saying about the cam timing, but I'm still expecting the peak to shimmy up the revs a little due to less retriction at high flow rates (read high rpm).
you might be right - it'll be interesting to see - maybe a hundred revs or so ?
I've bl**dy forgotted which thermostat I chose when I got a new one, but I would imagine I went for the hottor one :-\
There is only one - that's part of the problem. GM chose a relatively high "normal" coolant temperature.
But I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a good power figure, 250 would be ace :)
Can't wait to see the dyno plot - it's been a while since anyone did any decent tuning work on one. Are you going to take a standard 3.0 as a comparison ? ( dynos can differ 15 hp from one to the next )
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Not much they will go bang! V6s aint about high RPM's thats what VTEC/VANOS is for
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Not much they will go bang! V6s aint about high RPM's thats what VTEC/VANOS is for
oddly enough, the V6 had VANOS right up until just before launch. The domes in the cam belt cover are still there.
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Yeah, I binned the bag pipes, I can certainly see that would have added a lot of torque in the low to mid RPM, but its such a restriction upstream of the paddle, where the track is one pipe, the cross sectional area of the one pipe is about the same size as the throttle boddies (together) where the gas velocity is great.
I've retained the plenum paddle and for now the ECU is switching it as per standard, but the mapping session will reveal whether the switching RPM has changed due to other changes.
I agree I'm not expecting it to be much of an rpm change for the peak torque, time will tell, I cant wait to have it on the rollers :) :)
Thats a great idea, I'd love to take another one along as a comparison. I'll be all over the forum, when the car gets to this point (unfortunatly a few months off yet). So anyone in the area is welcome to bring an MV6 along for a power run for comparison perposes.
Thats funny about the cam timing, I'd wondered if thats why there were bulges :)
I assume youve seen the photos of the engine work? I put a link in my intro post. I'll post some engine piccies here if folk want?
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are you sure about this :o :o its a BMW Patented design and in the days of the Omega BMW were very proud of VANOS
also i believe the reason why BMW use chain driven I6's is because of the VANOS system the older M20engine was belt driven then the M50tu come out with Single Vanos followed by the M52 then the M52tu with Bi-Vanos like the //M cars
anyway having owned a few BMWs once the Vanos unit blew up (Jammed) and it resulted in an extremely expensive trip at the stealers i shortly sold said car after that
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Not much they will go bang! V6s aint about high RPM's thats what VTEC/VANOS is for
VTEC and VANOS is about valve timing and have no relation with bottom end bang..
it depends on bottom end materials quality , clearences , oil quality and oil temp ..
in either case if oil is cooled properly they wont bang..
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also I must add the shops I visit frequently, repair lots of banged BMW's..
because the boyracers think that their cars will never fail ;D
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no i meant VVT engines rev high due to VVT systems the omega has none of this and V6s bar the NSX v6 dont rev high
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I have seen an X30XE in a Westfield on jenvey throttle bodies and IIRC the owner said that was making 260+. I didn't pay much attention because it really depends how big a sprinkling of BS the rolling road was adding. Be very surprised to see that on standard cams. Well worth taking a standard "control" car along. ;)
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I have seen an X30XE in a Westfield on jenvey throttle bodies and IIRC the owner said that was making 260+. I didn't pay much attention because it really depends how big a sprinkling of BS the rolling road was adding. Be very surprised to see that on standard cams. Well worth taking a standard "control" car along. ;)
my mates TT Supra has been on 4x rolling roads all mods considered it should be about 450-490bhp but one rolling road said it was 180bhp ranging to 690bhp! a TT supra with 690bhp dream on! a Single turbo yes!
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Yout hear this all over the place, its a real shame that they feel the need to change the "correction" factor to keep owners happy, I'll certainly be asking for a non tanpered Wheel hp figure, then I can check what BS they added, but like you said another Omega would be the way to go, the car could almost be used as a calibration for losses, the only difference between the cars would be the axles then, and thats got to be pretty similar.
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whereabouts are you ?
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Yout hear this all over the place, its a real shame that they feel the need to change the "correction" factor to keep owners happy, I'll certainly be asking for a non tanpered Wheel hp figure, then I can check what BS they added, but like you said another Omega would be the way to go, the car could almost be used as a calibration for losses, the only difference between the cars would be the axles then, and thats got to be pretty similar.
The problem is, a wheel figure will be wildly inaccurate too. Depends on the amount of friction between tyres and rollers, i.e. how hard it was strapped down, tyre pressures and type, etc. It's difficult to get a repeatable "at the wheels" figure.
What you need is for them to measure ambient temperature and pressure and enter it, then do a power run and properly record the losses during the coastdown and apply them to get an "at the crank" reading.
If I wanted to get an accurate figure I personally would go and see this man http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_r_road.html (http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_r_road.html). I've seen his rolling road turn out consistent readings (i.e. same car untouched read within 5% with the two pull a year apart!).
Unfortunately he's in Watton so not the easiest place to get to. Used to be in Brixton which was OK if you had windows you could wind up (i.e, not a Westfield ::)).
or.. If you really want the right number, put the engine in a dyno cell.
or.. Just tune it as best you can and drive it. It's only a number, after all. ;)
Kevin
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just been through the PH thread about the car.....
what's going on with the PAS pump ?
the electrical coolant pumps are for :-
pump 1 - allows coolant to be circulated around the heater after shut-off ( part of the "winter" options pack ), and also gives a better heater flow generally.
pump 2 - circulates some coolant around the system in order to prevent "after-boil", again a throwback from the high mass coolant temperature.
Hammerite products are not good for chassis, on two fronts. Firstly, they're too brittle and chip very easily (stones, etc.). Secondly, and more importantly, they're petrol-soluable, so with the firat sniff of gasoline, they simply fall off in big sheets.
and lastly, it might interest you to know that I used to be the chief engineer at Reliant Motors for a while. ( Beans industries and Avonex eras )
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If I was looking to build a tuned 54deg V6 I would start with a 3.2 (steel crank), tear it down and get the bottom end balanced.
I might consider stronger rods as they are known to fail at higher powers.
I would certainly be checking the oil pump carefuly.
In addition, there are a few mods on some of the German sites which help the head cooling (which again is a known issue when upping the power).
The 3.2 has slightly better exhaust ports on the head but a custom set of headers would help a lot.
A bit of fettling of the head ports would not go a miss.
Its interesting as this is one thing that we have never really had a good go at on here (maybe we should!)
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Maybe "we" need someone with a spare 3.2 to use a as test bead. :)
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Maybe "we" need someone with a spare 3.2 to use a as test bead. :)
Now.. Who would that be? ::)
It would need a proper gearbox first, of course. :-\
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Very interesting read over on PH lozzzzzz.
Gave me some ideas for the engine/kitcar I’m supposedly building (not done anything for 18 months now). :-X
Keep up with the good work. :y
Regarding the heat issues on these engines, would fitting a lower temp stat not help the problem? Just thinking that if the coolant flowing round the engine is cooler than the stock setup, surely this would help cool the engine more effectively due to the bigger potential difference? Or is that not the problem? ???
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Not sure that would work well. You'd immediately be making your radiator less efficient at transferring the coolant heat into the atmosphere, which is where it needs to go.
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Not sure that would work well. You'd immediately be making your radiator less efficient at transferring the coolant heat into the atmosphere, which is where it needs to go.
Yes that would be true, but if the coolant is already several degrees cooler, would that matter? ???
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It may help but you fundamentaly need to get that cooler coolant to the right places.
We know the exhaust headers are pretty poor.....maybe it could be an excuse to fire up my newly aquired TIG set. :y
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More coolant flow external to the engine (through the rad.) often results in poorer coolant circulation around the extremities of the engine internals (due to the bypass flow being killed by the thermostat for a start), so cooling it more can make localised cooling issues worse.
However, I have a special knackered uprated thermostat that opens at about 75 degrees if anyone's interested. Shall we start the bidding at a tenner? ;) Beginning to wonder why I went to the trouble of changing it. ::)
I do like the dual-redundant Facet fuel pumps. Someone else to add to the "one of these bstrd things left me by the roadside" club, obviously. ;D
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Thank you all for you interest I’ll be posting every future post on here as well as the other forums
2woody,
I’m between Hereford and Worcester. The PAS pump is on its way to being stored in the garage, as I don’t think I’ll be needing it. The PAS rack I’ve put in is currently plumbed into itself, there is a token small amount of fluid in it for lubrication the rack, but otherwise its just a quick rack for now. The way it feels at the moment I’m pretty sure I’ll be leaving it that way. It’s not really that heavy (especially as the engine is so much lighter) and I want lots of “feel”.
I’m in the process of making a freewheel pulley to replace the pump. It was just plumbed into itself for the purpose of starting the engine.
After reading all this about temp I’ll definitely be getting a lower temp thermostat, do Courtney do one?
I’ve heard all about the Hammerite problem . If I did it again I’d use Pore15 or something. But, there in an undercoat of good quality red oxide, and an overcoat of awesome stonechip, highly recommended (cant remember the name ) and lastly, all parts of the chassis that were rusty were replaced in stainless steel, so I’m not too worried about it at the moment. If it needs doing again in 5 years time, it’ll come off the body really easily, as all the bolts are stainless too.
That’s amazing that we have an X Reliant chief here, I’m in awe! I went to a talk from the Designer Tom Karren the other day at a Scimitar club event, it was a real eye opener. I imagine Reliant would have been a really exciting company to work for in its day, you seem to have done so many cutting edge projects. I take my hat off too you .
Kevin,
I’ve known off Dave Walker for a while now, I’ve read all his features in the PPC magazine from the beginning, he’s certainly very good at what he does, and I will be making an effort to go use his rolling road and expertise, even if he’s a million miles away from me, and can be a little intolerant of inexperience .
I noticed when I was taking the heads off, that the GM head gaskets were very different to how they would have started life. There are a number of holes to allow the coolant to flow between he heads and engine (or the other way, can’t remember now) but these has become significantly bigger through corrosion and must have changed the way the coolant flows, I can see how these engines need to be looked after.
“I do like the dual-redundant Facet fuel pumps. Someone else to add to the "one of these bstrd things left me by the roadside" club, obviously. ”
Funny you should say that Kevin, I’m a member of that exact club, and don’t plan to be again.
Marks DTM Calib,
I see what you’re saying and it certainly makes sense, but one of the hardest parts of this project so far has been knowing when to stop. If money wasn’t a problem, there would be an LS1 engine under the bonnet. I did fancy the 3,2 (and didn’t know about the extra advantage of the forged crank at the time), but it all boiled down to money. I’m really pleased with what I got for my £1k, a 100k 3.o x police, with full history and an £1800 lpg kit fitted less than a year ago.
I did check the big ends, mains and bore, but once again, its knowing where to stop, they all looked fine so it was only the top end that got a rebuild,
As for having a go, you should all defiantly have a go at porting (depending on my results), there are no excuses, you could all port the throttle body, its like an hour job, start to finish, and I’d be willing to bet that most gains will be made from the porting I did on the plastic base to the inlet system, there is such a restriction there its crazy, and its free, you don’t even need to take the heads off.
You should defiantly fire up the TIG and loose the Cats, there’s at least 10hp right there.
Ian D,
Thanks for your kind comments. I will fit a cooler stat. In theory it will lower the efficiency of the radiator by a very small percentage, but if that ever became a problem, the overall coolant temp would rise a bit and you’d be right back where you started with the old thermostat, it’s a no brainer, I’ll definitely get one in there soon.
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It may help but you fundamentaly need to get that cooler coolant to the right places.
We know the exhaust headers are pretty poor.....maybe it could be an excuse to fire up my newly aquired TIG set. :y
Why would you need TIG for making headers? A MIG would be plenty good enough. Unless you were planning on making them from aluminuum, which seems unlikely. A mate made new headers for his dad's Ferrari using a £100 MIG and CO2 , without taking them off the car(over£1200 each new), so it's, more operator rather than tools!
I do have a TIG set, but I bought it because I had the money at the right time and because I plan on making various aluminium radiators and other parts for my hot rod projects. Otherwise, MIG and oxy-acetylene are MUCH more useful for car stuff.
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I'll be watching progress with interest..
I've gone to the solid state Facet pump now, which seem to be more reliable (that's me doomed). ;D
So, are you piggy-backing the LPG system from the outputs of the petrol ECU or doing something more interesting?
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I'm MIGing my manifolds, and to be honest they would look a lot nicer with TIG, and some skill :)
But they would look ace either way if I had a pipe bender inseat of cutting and shutting :)
Kevin,
The omega came with a full on Landi Omegas system, that was piggy back off the original ECU. Canems (the aftermarket ECU bought) do do an LPG and Petrol ECU, but its over £200 more, so I thought I'd just go with the Landi LPG ECU as it was in the Omega. So that will need setting up as well. Theoretically it should just work, and read off the slighty higher injection duty cycle, but the tacho signal is different so I might need to get the LPG tuned on the rollers too.
The Canems ECU has 2 maps so that'll take care of advancing the spark on LPG and I could adjust the fueling through that too hopefully.
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It may help but you fundamentaly need to get that cooler coolant to the right places.
We know the exhaust headers are pretty poor.....maybe it could be an excuse to fire up my newly aquired TIG set. :y
Why would you need TIG for making headers? A MIG would be plenty good enough. Unless you were planning on making them from aluminuum, which seems unlikely. A mate made new headers for his dad's Ferrari using a £100 MIG and CO2 , without taking them off the car(over£1200 each new), so it's, more operator rather than tools!
I do have a TIG set, but I bought it because I had the money at the right time and because I plan on making various aluminium radiators and other parts for my hot rod projects. Otherwise, MIG and oxy-acetylene are MUCH more useful for car stuff.
Simple. Tig gives a much nicer weld joint and you could even use stainless.
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There are a couple of ported 2.6s on the forum, I am also using 3.0 cams, definately quicker than before and nearly 3.0 in get up and go.
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Hi folks, thanks again for my warm welcome a few weeks back.
I'm wondering what people think would be a safe rev limit to set my ECU to (aftermarket management in a Scimitar). The engine is very ported in a number of areas, with full on three branch exhaust manifolds, and a very unrestrictive inlet track, the torque curve will have moved up the rev range. So higher revs will yeild a good hike in power (fingers crossed). But I really don't want to risk damaging it at all, it needs to be reliable and bullet proof.
I've searched the forum and found that folk seem to think the MV6 limit is about 6750rpm with rumours of the police cars going to 6800-6900rpm (this was a police engine).
I guess I'm wondering if anyone has heard of a standard bottom end coping with 7000rpm all day, or conversly has anyone heard any horror stories after a remap and slight raise in limiter.
My current thinking is to go with a solf cut (retarded spark) at 6750 and a hard cut (no spark) at 6800.
Thanks for any comments you could leave.
sound like nice project :y
can you post some photo of your engine bay and exhausts system please
who you going to use to setup ECU master?? or you do yourself
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I'm not entirely sure, but I think I want Dave walker of Emerald ECUs to set it up but it is accross counrty from me.
So here are a few photos
Here's the engine bay as it is at the mo.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01503.jpg)
Although the LPG injectors are there, htey're not mounted properly yet. You can see I've not got the throttle body, plastic suround (I broke it by accident :( ). The old ECU was butchered to make a bulkhead connector. You can see the inlet air temp sensor hanging there as there is no ducting yet. You can just about make out part of the vaporiser below the expansion tank.
Here's some piccies of the nearly finished drivers side manifold (no collector yet). It certainly doesn't look like a pro made manifold, but rest assured its a smooth bore on the inside :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01471.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01470.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01482.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01480.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01478.jpg)
This is how far I've got with the passenger side so far
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01489.jpg)
Here's a the start of the solution to the PAS pump problem. I decided to reuse one of the old (but not very old) cambelt idlers.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01486.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/DSC01488.jpg)
Its getting there.
There are so many piccies, I'll gladly put more on if folk want to see, but they are all on the piston heads link here
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=149&t=989675&i=0&mid=&nmt=
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Worked with Tom Karen for a while - can't for the life of me remember what for... ::)
Most of the business owners in the low-volume motor industry live in cloud-cuckoo land and tend towards new sportscar designs rather than sound business footings. ( that's as polite as I've ever put that statement )
Also, can we have some definitive figures for how much power the LPG costs you ? My gut feel says about 10%, but it'd be nice to see for sure. When you get to Dyno-day, I might come along myself, there's a couple of things I want to do.
I might make some time to come say hello when I'm coming past - i'd love to see the car sometime.
Stuart
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Very interesting thread,keep it coming :y :y
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I'm not entirely sure, but I think I want Dave walker of Emerald ECUs to set it up but it is accross counrty from me.
Not sure if he does non-Emerald ECUs. I know there was a time when Emerald mapping was keeping him 110% busy, so he was turning away anything else.
I would get yourself a wideband lambda sensor and map it yourself. One-off cost about the same as a few hours on a rolling road and then you're set up to give it a tweak whenever you like. :y
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if your in Hereford mate pm me i Live in Kington HR5 you more than welcome to benchmark my 3.2 now it has a nice shinny new oil cooler its running well bar emissions light on but this doesn't effect it to much i believe!
I hope your not using Motorsport @ Ross's rolling road its given the hereford chav's ideas that their VTR's are running 170bhp try Saxon motor-sport if their Rolling road can do RWD cars?
the problem is that you could make it a 450bhp car but it doesn't handle like a BMW and so a 318 will destroy you on a windy country road iv'e tried it and its why i'm gonna get rid of this 3.2 still i got it fairly cheap so wont loose money on it plus its manual
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I reckon an Omega is at least as good as a 318 handling-wise.
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Stuart,
That’s awesome, I felt honored to meet him, and you’d be more than welcome to come have a look, that would be great.
I’m not surprised to hear you say that about Reliant, it would be easy to go off on a tangent and design something different with a medium sized manufacturing company at your disposal.
I’ll let ou know what the LPG figure is, but I’ve got a good idea what percentage you’d lose. The Canems website has a dyno read out of a Capri with an X30XE on both petrol and LPG, so even if the hp figures are inaccurate, the percentage difference won’t be. It made 238hp on petrol and 206hp on LPG, so I guess you loose 13.4% power on an injection type LPG set up, its obviously a lot more on a carb type.
As for the Dyno Day I’ll let you all know nearer the time, and see what the rolling road operator says, but I’d love it if I could have a compare car, and I guess if you’re a paying customer you could experiment with some changes too.
The Capri X30XE can be seen here (dyno read out at the bottom of the page):
http://www.canems.co.uk/casestudy/capriv6.php
Henry D,
Thanks, I’ll keep posting as soon as I’ve got time to work on it. It’s a bit “all work and no play” at the moment. Its doing my head in tbh.
Kevin,
He does seem to be rather popular if his PPC articles are anything to go by, I’ll see what he says at the time.
I’ll be getting a pair of wideband sensors anyway ( really expensive :( ) so I can do a fair bit myself and have them finish it off, it’s the ignition timing that’s critical to squeezing the last bit of power out, and I’m not too confident with that as I don’t want to go causing detination. Although the knock sensors are in place and wired into the ECU, the Firmware isn’t yet available to make use of them, so I’ll ne relying on the ear of a the rolling road operator.
TMX,
Good to hear there are some members near by. I guess I’d rather a 3.0 as it’s a like for like comparison, but honestly this is several months off yet :(. I’ll keep Saxon in mind for nearer the time, in fact I’ve got a stock pile of rolling road business cards collected from various car shows. I’ll call them all when the time comes and pick the one that sounds most reputable.
If the Scim makes 240hp (it should make that at least) and it weighs 1200kg max, with a good collection of uprated suspension parts and redesigned bit, and a descent set of upgraded brake, I think it might be the scimitar that’s doing the mopping :) hehe
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Which wideband are you going with? The Innovate LC-1 isn't too bad ($200) though you get no gauge with that (the kit with gauge is $329, which is somewhat more eye watering, I'll grant you!). It's a nice piece of kit, though, and the sensors it uses are standard VAG items so relatively inexpensive when (not if) they go pop..
(I have - had, I suppose - an LC-1 with XD-16 on the MR2, and I've also got an LM-1 sitting in the garage now)
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It may help but you fundamentaly need to get that cooler coolant to the right places.
We know the exhaust headers are pretty poor.....maybe it could be an excuse to fire up my newly aquired TIG set. :y
Why would you need TIG for making headers? A MIG would be plenty good enough. Unless you were planning on making them from aluminuum, which seems unlikely. A mate made new headers for his dad's Ferrari using a £100 MIG and CO2 , without taking them off the car(over£1200 each new), so it's, more operator rather than tools!
I do have a TIG set, but I bought it because I had the money at the right time and because I plan on making various aluminium radiators and other parts for my hot rod projects. Otherwise, MIG and oxy-acetylene are MUCH more useful for car stuff.
Simple. Tig gives a much nicer weld joint and you could even use stainless.
It does, with a lot of practice. Stainless flows really nicely; the backbox I welded for a mate was done with stainless lockwire as it was all I could find at the time.
But you still don't need a TIG for stainless, it's perfectly viable with a MIG. In fact, you can weld stainless to ordinary steel that way.
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Indeed but as I am sure you are aware, the mig joint is more brittle.
I am very fortunate to have Mig and Tig and of course the Tig also makes a very good Arc to.
Horses for courses for me, I mostly use the Mig on mild steel but the Tig for most other things except outside work where the old rods come out and we head back to the dark ages ;D
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Aaromjb,
I was thinking of the LC-1 I bl**dy missed one on ebay the other day that went for £67 with the sensor, I was miffed to say the least. I'm just keeping my eye out as I have the luxury (annoyingly) of time.
Whats the differenct between that and the LM-1?
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The LM-1 has a big control box that does data logging and so on - it's designed for standalone tuning (i.e. stuffing the O2 sensor up the exhaust on a hanger); discontinued now for the LM-2 - http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php
If you want it permanently installed then the LC-1 is the better bet, it has digital (serial) and analogue lines to go to a laptop and the ECU respectively. XD-16 is nice to have to keep an eye on things, though (although the gauge is a bit on the gaudy side!)
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What about the wideband O2 project which was part of the megasquirt project?
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I've had a little look, is that another product from megasquirt? It would need to less that £100 for sensor and controller to make it worth while.
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Yes, I recall they have a list of 'donor' vehicles for the sensors hence a trip to 'the yard' can get a cheap solution
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I’ll be getting a pair of wideband sensors anyway ( really expensive :( ) so I can do a fair bit myself and have them finish it off, it’s the ignition timing that’s critical to squeezing the last bit of power out, and I’m not too confident with that as I don’t want to go causing detination. Although the knock sensors are in place and wired into the ECU, the Firmware isn’t yet available to make use of them, so I’ll ne relying on the ear of a the rolling road operator.
I'm not so sure, TBH. In my experience, with a modern combustion chamber design such as on the V6, the power plateaus over quite a wide range of ignition advance (about 24 to 30 degrees BTDC at WOT on my Zetec IIRC) so you just back it off until the engine feels "flat" then advance a few degrees and you've got it at the "safe" side of the plateau. I admit it's not easy to tune with a "seat of pants dyno" but you are only going to lose a few BHP over a couple of hours on a dyno. Tuning fuel is much easier, IMHO. It's blatantly obvious when you've got too much fuel and when you know what mixture the engine likes on the wideband you can just tune for that everywhere at WOT.
What about the wideband O2 project which was part of the megasquirt project?
There was this... http://www.megamanual.com/PWC/ (http://www.megamanual.com/PWC/). I'm not sure what came of it. It has been "coming soon" since I was last seriously involved in megasquirt in about 2004.
I built a TechEdge wideband controller around that sort of time.. before the Bosch LSU4 sensor got that popular so mine is the "rocking horse poo" NTK L1H1 that was used on a couple of Hondas and nothing else. TechEdge still offer some decent kits. http://www.techedge.com.au/ (http://www.techedge.com.au/)
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I'm still really stuggling to actually find a site with a price or a buying option for megasquirt controller. I'm still thinking the LC-1 second hand might be the one to go for.
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The megasquirt wideband controller? Don't think it ever made it as far as a kit being available. :(
Tech edge or Innovate are the best options IMHO. Both do decent kits that use the LSU4 sensor these days. A mate of mine is the importer for Tech Edge http://trigger-wheels.com (http://trigger-wheels.com). He's a helpful chap who will be able to advise, I'm sure.
Innovate stuff is available from a few places in the UK. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/dealers.php (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/dealers.php)
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if your in Hereford mate pm me i Live in Kington HR5 you more than welcome to benchmark my 3.2 now it has a nice shinny new oil cooler its running well bar emissions light on but this doesn't effect it to much i believe!
I hope your not using Motorsport @ Ross's rolling road its given the hereford chav's ideas that their VTR's are running 170bhp try Saxon motor-sport if their Rolling road can do RWD cars?
the problem is that you could make it a 450bhp car but it doesn't handle like a BMW and so a 318 will destroy you on a windy country road iv'e tried it and its why i'm gonna get rid of this 3.2 still i got it fairly cheap so wont loose money on it plus its manual
an 318 , even a newish 320 cant destroy a proper tuned 2.5 on a country road let 3.2 aside.. but if you compare a new car with an old miggy with crap tyres and donald shock-spring setup , its normal..