Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Darth Loo-knee on 06 October 2011, 18:55:41
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There was a noise coming from a Members car from which sounded like when jacked up, was coming from either the torque convertor area and a noise inside the sump towards the rear :o This was a noise that happened all of the time but when put into gear was made alot worse..
So at first was thinking it could have been a Main Bearing as the noise was definately inside the sump also the two bolts that hold the Main Bearing were loose..... So wondered if a Bottom End maybe needed which I had just incase. At the same time though there was a noise in the location of the Torque Convertor and so being honest I was a little unsure to be doing the Bottom End change quiet yet...
After a little thought wondered if the approach of removing the gearbox and seeing what was going on was the best idea.... but if say the Torque Convertor was the problem and I don't have one, plus Mr Owner needed the car back within a week what do I do then? So asked a few people for Torque Convertors on the off chance (as I personally would sell them with the gearbox & so do others as it seems) it was needed...... could not get one so at worst I would need to put everything back together to give the car back until we could locate one....
I removed the gearbox, to find a Loose Torque Convertor which made the exact noise when wobbled...., one of the 6 bolts that hold the flitch plate to the torqure convertor was sheared, but that wasn't the problem..
This was the problem... I have spoken to The Master on why on Earth this would happen as I have not seen this on a car before..... Maybe the Torque Convertor was fastened to the flitch plate first before fitting the gearbox which caused the stress to the Plate ???
I have fitted another Flitch Plate, fitted a Rear Crankshaft Seal as a matter of course whilst the gearbox was off... The car now sounds as it should.. so a Great Result There :y
Thanks again to the One & Only Master who again shows that two heads are better than one :y :-* :-* :-*
So here is a picture
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/Loo-knee/06102011083.jpg)
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I must add that the crack is all around, and so the centre part with the bolts holes can be moved to and fro ???
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Lucky that didn't fail in use,I've seen it happen years ago on Ford Granada's but not on a Vauxhall.
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That looks nasty. :o
I wonder if the torque converter came loose and the vibration fatigued the plate? Or, as you say, someone's bolted the gearbox up without the TC engaged and the torque converter nose was bent, causing it to run out of round and stress the plate.
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Whos was that? not Paul Lovejoys?
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Is this the one that had the funny knocking at Newent ???
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:o :o ???
never seen this before.. :y
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No this isn't Paul's car :)
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That looks nasty. :o
I wonder if the torque converter came loose and the vibration fatigued the plate? Or, as you say, someone's bolted the gearbox up without the TC engaged and the torque converter nose was bent, causing it to run out of round and stress the plate.
Kev, the TC was fastened tightly to the flitch plate was not loose there even though one of the 6 bolts was sheared off... The reason the torque convertor was wobbling is even though the flitch plate was bolted to the crank with it been broken enough to wiggle with my fingers when I removed it, you can perhaps imagine how much it moved with the TC etc still supposedly fastened up..... If that makes sense.... I think what Mark ment was if the TC had been wrongly fastened to the flitch plate first, then when the gearbox was bolted into place the gearbox would have pushed the flitch plate forward perhaps stressing it around where its cracked..
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Indeed, I suspect we may have evidence of the other damage that could be caused when the torque convertor is fitted to the flitch plate before the box is attached.
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I have to say .. I've never heard it called a 'flitch plate' before .. 'flex plate', yes, but never 'flitch'..
Also never seen one crack like that around the crank bolts - although I have seen a flywheel do that and end up only held on by the clutch. Never did work out what caused it (it wasn't my car anymore at that point, so I didn't care ;D)
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have seen quite a few bust flex plates like that - usually caused by a mis-alignment at re-installation or some mechanical intervention in the botton of the housing.
have also seen it as a result of accident damage
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Is this the W reg 3.0 Estate?
Going back a couple of years now, the gearbox on this car was fitted in Mr Sassanach's workshop by our resident gearbox expert, myself, and Markie.
The gearbox was absolutely NOT fitted incorrectly. The Torque converter was placed into the box, and it was all fitted as one, and only then joined to the flex plate.
Following which I had several thousands of miles reliable service. :y
Unless the Gbox has been touched since then :-\
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Actually, it's more than a couple of years, but you get the picture!
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Interesting, I dont suppose you recall seeing any damage to the plate when you did the work?
Cant see this being something that just happened and guess it could have happened before and has got worse.
The things that point me towards a crush issue are the additional fracture lines which spread from the centre out. I cant see them being caused by an imbalance due to the missing bolt head although I guess it is possible.
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If it's the car I think it is, the history was as follows...
Purchased by me in 2008 with 168k on the clock.
Upon purchase, gearbox was thumping into gear, and generally not functioning well.
A known good AR35 was sourced, new sonnax thrust washer installed, and fitted with clean ATF.
It may be of course, that the plate was weakened before this time, and it's just been a matter of time. It looked OK visually 2/3 years ago, but who knows what stresses were on it, with that mileage.
I just wanted to give assurance that it was all fitted correctly, down in Trowbridge.. :)
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well just to let every one know yes its the same car and cant thank Darth Loo-knee enough a brill guy as a lot of you know as well as mark the god dtm for advice given drives like a new car now thanks guys :y :y :y
pete
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I have to say .. I've never heard it called a 'flitch plate' before .. 'flex plate', yes, but never 'flitch'..
Also never seen one crack like that around the crank bolts - although I have seen a flywheel do that and end up only held on by the clutch. Never did work out what caused it (it wasn't my car anymore at that point, so I didn't care ;D)
An old bloke I worked with years ago called it "Flitch Plate" so I suppose it has stuck really :D I have heard it called a Flex Plate & Drive Plate too ;)
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Is this the W reg 3.0 Estate?
Going back a couple of years now, the gearbox on this car was fitted in Mr Sassanach's workshop by our resident gearbox expert, myself, and Markie.
The gearbox was absolutely NOT fitted incorrectly. The Torque converter was placed into the box, and it was all fitted as one, and only then joined to the flex plate.
Following which I had several thousands of miles reliable service. :y
Unless the Gbox has been touched since then :-\
I am in Awe of your Detective skills James, to have 11000 odd members and being able to tell which car it was by the Flex/Flitch/Drive Plate :D
I would be interested though being honest who did the "Modifications" to the O2 sensor wiring plus the Knock Sensor wiring, as that is quiet a job.. :)
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well just to let every one know yes its the same car and cant thank Darth Loo-knee enough a brill guy as a lot of you know as well as mark the god dtm for advice given drives like a new car now thanks guys :y :y :y
pete
I think it is getting there now Pete :y
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I am in Awe of your Detective skills James, to have 11000 odd members and being able to tell which car it was by the Flex/Flitch/Drive Plate :D
Daz,
It's remarkably simple.
I saw a post not too long ago, by trainmanone, about the noise in question, on this car.
I was aware that, trainmanone owned the car some time after I did (albeit not directly after)
Therefore, when I saw your post about the noise on a 'members' car, I considered it likely it was the same one.
That's how I was able to guess which car it was. It's not hard.
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daz, sorry mate. Caught me on an off moment, didnt mean to sound so abrupt. PM sent :y
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I wonder if your car has the same problem Paul?
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newent that was ages ago......i know not had time to even drive the omega since yet alone do any work :-[
hopefully you will remeber the fat guy with the knocking noise at start up that could not actually get the car to do the knock at the time
it was found that two bolts that go through the gearbox were missing thanks to Daz several months ago got the bolts and now fitted the car still knock on start up only now there is a metalic tapping noise coming from the bottom of engine area sound like tappets but not from the top of thew engine......put a video on photo bucket picture is not really of anything it was more for sound and like newent the car would not make the knocking noise on start up *@cker but there is another video on photo bucket that shows this
(http://[URL=http://s1086.photobucket.com/albums/j449/paullovejoy/?action-view¤t=001.mp4][IMG]http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j449/paullovejoy/th_001.jpg)[/URL][/img]
any ideas welcome
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Paul ... Daz has posted a comment at the back end of this thread ...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=94195.15
I "think" he's wondering if you have a similar problem .......
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sorry heres the direct link also the other video is the start up noise
http://s1086.photobucket.com/albums/j449/paullovejoy/?action=view¤t=001.mp4
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Paul ... Daz has posted a comment at the back end of this thread ...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=94195.15
I "think" he's wondering if you have a similar problem .......
Thanks i did read that post a while ago and pm daz think he maybe getting a visit soon :y
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Thanks Daz i did read this a while ago but was kind of hoping the bolts would do the trick as you well know i am a back seat mechanic ;D
so i think this car really needs someone who knows what they are doing....i had good intentions but my time is better spent building things thats why i was looking at some other omegas and trying to move this one on. at the end of the day the cars just been sitting on the drive for the past 2-3 months
any advice would be appreciated mot is due in december of all months so wanted to see how that goes :y
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From finding those bolts missing it maybe a possiblity someone has had the gearbox off. Maybe it was put back on wrongly? It could be that your Flex/Flitch Plate that could be broken, something similar to the picture I took for this thread.
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From finding those bolts missing it maybe a possiblity someone has had the gearbox off. Maybe it was put back on wrongly? It could be that your Flex/Flitch Plate that could be broken, something similar to the picture I took for this thread.
Only one way to find out. Its a PITA, but only way to know for certain...
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ermmm whats a PITA :)
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ermmm whats a PITA :)
You'll know about it when you get one. ;)
(PITA = Pain in the @rse)
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From finding those bolts missing it maybe a possiblity someone has had the gearbox off. Maybe it was put back on wrongly? It could be that your Flex/Flitch Plate that could be broken, something similar to the picture I took for this thread.
your probably right about the gear box coming out as i did phone vauxhalls who serviced the vehicle etc and they said it has had a lot of work carried out on it lots of new parts but they would not say what etc only that it was mechanical and not due to an accedent
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ermmm whats a PITA :)
You'll know about it when you get one. ;)
(PITA = Pain in the @rse)
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that made me laugh knew it would be something like that ;D ;D :y
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I think the only way to know is remove the gearbox and check.
That is probably the PITA they are reffering too..
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Thats not a nice sounding noise,
Is the car cutting out on you? or are you stopping it?
I do hope thats not the cambelt having jumped teeth.
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Daz,
So at first was thinking it could have been a Main Bearing as the noise was definately inside the sump also the two bolts that hold the Main Bearing were loose.....
You mention the bolts holding a main bearing being loose. Do you mean that the two bolts found missing actually secure the bearing cap on the rearmost crank bearing? Are these the same 2 that were missing on Paul's car?
If so, and the rear of the crank is therefore not supported properly by the brearing, I can imagine that it will transmit much more vibration into the flex plate and maybe that's why they fail?
Kevin
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i had a feeling it would be a gear box out job I will take the back seat bring a sleeping bag this time.......what about the new tapping noise is this something else i can look forward too or could it be related
just trying to get a good idea of wether its worth putting more money in the car or auctioning it off accepting the loss and buying another did talk to a couple of memebers that may have cars coming up on here. The mileage and everything stacks up but i am no mechanic and as much as i would like to do it i dont have the time anymore
the only thing that may let it down on the mot is tyres
any advice welcome so at least if i decide to sell i can let someone know what they are letting themselves in for
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that was me stopping and starting it to try and get it to make the clonking noise
the camblets only recently been done unless something happened to make it do that
sad to admit car has sat on drive since coming home from newent so its not had a run for a while
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Yes Kev, the two bolts missing on Paul's car were the two long bolts that go through the gearbox into the rear Crank Bearing.
Personally I think the box needs to be removed then have a see whats happening.
Paul about what to do with your car.... Its always a difficult one.
You could say the car is worth this and you have spent that.... But, there is always the chance of buying something with its own issues be it off the Forum or not.
Sometimes better the Devil you know!
The other thing is people say "Oh its worth less than a Grand!" the truth is its worth more to you.... Well thats how I have looked at it anyways x
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It's not the cars value, it's what needs to be spent on the next car to get back to where you want to be. That ain't cheap, and usually results in a repaired omega tbh.
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I'm wondering if mine has this problem too :'(
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You could say the car is worth this and you have spent that.... But, there is always the chance of buying something with its own issues be it off the Forum or not.
Sometimes better the Devil you know!
The other thing is people say "Oh its worth less than a Grand!" the truth is its worth more to you.... Well thats how I have looked at it anyways x
Precisely why I keep the Silver Bullet. OK, its doors and rear wheel arches are showing their age, but I would happily jump in that tomorrow and drive to cem's place and back without worrying about if the car will do it. Naturally, I'd take a spare crank sensor, just in case ::)
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You could say the car is worth this and you have spent that.... But, there is always the chance of buying something with its own issues be it off the Forum or not.
Sometimes better the Devil you know!
The other thing is people say "Oh its worth less than a Grand!" the truth is its worth more to you.... Well thats how I have looked at it anyways x
Precisely why I keep the Silver Bullet. OK, its doors and rear wheel arches are showing their age, but I would happily jump in that tomorrow and drive to cem's place and back without worrying about if the car will do it. Naturally, I'd take a spare crank sensor, just in case ::)
thanks for the advice i know what your saying does make sense and this was my line of thinking when i first got the car as it does drive excellent even better after Daz did some work on it but i have got my eye on an elite when it comes up. Depends what the price is no idea what mine would be worth on flea bay or even auction but the loss might be worth it . Plus i fully intended to do some work on the car myself and i just dont get the time.
will put it through the mot next week and see what happens :y
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hi there, whip the box out and have a look ,i was in same situation as daz will tell you.had cam belt and aux belt kits done by daz first still the same,was only going to keep car for a few months whaighed up the options, made an executive dision and asked daz to take out box and hay ho the drive plate was as you can see in pic at beginning of this topic.
car now quiet as a mouse at 192,000 miles
should last another ten years now
regards pete :y
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quite right Pete fully intend to let Daz work his magic just logistics of getting the car to him bugger lives so far away and really need to leave him with the car for a while rather than stand there make the tea watch and sleep on the back seat so it means two round trips
if he was just up the road he would already have the car :y :y
unless anyone knows of a cheap transporter service :y
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If you drive it here before the 24th I can drive it up to him while the wife drives my car. I'm not sure how you would get it back though unless he could get it done before I come back on the 27th.
Offer is there if you want :y
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I live a mile away from Kidsgrove train station, that runs to London etc.
If you could get it here, and book your train tickets in advance you will be suprised at just how much they cost. I am sure someone from Reading to Kidsgrove paid less than £10 which being honest you could not do in a car even on gas for that price.
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If you drive it here before the 24th I can drive it up to him while the wife drives my car. I'm not sure how you would get it back though unless he could get it done before I come back on the 27th.
Offer is there if you want :y
Thats really good of you but not sure how the car will run gearbox is constanly tapping now and last thing i would want is the car to go on you especially on the 24th :-[ appreciate the offer Matt thanks for that :y :y
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I live a mile away from Kidsgrove train station, that runs to London etc.
If you could get it here, and book your train tickets in advance you will be suprised at just how much they cost. I am sure someone from Reading to Kidsgrove paid less than £10 which being honest you could not do in a car even on gas for that price.
:o :o was that recently ;D ticket for me is around 60 to 70 unless i am searching wrong.. i really do think you should move down ta south like.....cool tropical breeze , palm trees, coconuts sandy beaches :y :y 8)
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In Kent ??? :o ::) ;D
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paradise Ramsgit youve been invited fatty we could be sipping ice cold beer whilst laying back on a deck chair thingy majig watching the tide come in :y :y
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course it would rather cold as hell raining and people would think we were mad as hell but hey beeeeeer mmmmmm :y
who ate my pies
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Your a mentalist Paul. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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:y cool lol thought that was a posh way of saying fat tinker that eats pies and drinks beer ;D ;D just looked it up :-* :y ;D ;D
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I agree with Daz about train tickets booked in advance... I am going from Gloucester to Gatwick airport fo £5 in January!
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Paul, just one question.. and sorry if it's a daft one (I don't know any of the history, and haven't read up)
Have you checked all of the bolts that hold the torque converter, to the flex plate, are correctly tightened?
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James, we had a look at Paul's car at the Newent Meet in September.
The bolts you asked about were checked and yes they were tight. The Master however found the two bolts that go through the gearbox into the rear crankshaft bearing were both missing.
I sent Paul a couple of bolts to fit himself, which does not seem to have helped.
:y
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phew thanks Daz got panicy then torque convertor thingy :o :o :y me no mechanical james :-[ sorry mate cant keep up with you guys the blank expression on my face would have said it all ;D :y
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James, we had a look at Paul's car at the Newent Meet in September.
The bolts you asked about were checked and yes they were tight. The Master however found the two bolts that go through the gearbox into the rear crankshaft bearing were both missing.
I sent Paul a couple of bolts to fit himself, which does not seem to have helped.
:y
Cheers for clarifying mate :y
What do we reckon's up with it - another cracked up driveplate perhaps? :/
Was this the car that always had the noise, since purchase?
I'll be interested in the outcome :y
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just to chip in while your both chatting reason i am looking at getting it transported is the new tapping noise fom the gearbox now think something is catching all the time so bit worried this could overheat or worse
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Daz I can't picture the bolts you are talking about from memory mate. Presumably not the ones that hold the bellhousing, to the block? I can't picture one that goes into the crank bearing, from the exterior of the box (I'm sure it's just my memory, I've not changed one for a couple of years!)
Just another thought, has the starter motor been removed, to have a look at the ring gear / driveplate, just to see if that sheds any light?
It couldn't be something starter motor related, maybe not retracting sufficiently? :-\
Just rambling :y
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just to chip in while your both chatting reason i am looking at getting it transported is the new tapping noise fom the gearbox now think something is catching all the time so bit worried this could overheat or worse
Paul are you in the RAC or AA?
An idea would be to start drivingthen call them out, catching the advanced booked train ;)
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thought about that but how would i get them to transport me 250 miles when i dont live there :y :y and wouldnt the car have to break down. suggestion more than welcome :y
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As long as you're more tha a few miles from home, usually you can request recovery to any destination in the UK of your choice.... depending on your policy type of course...
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usually you can request recovery to any destination in the UK of your choice.... depending on your policy type of course...
yup you have to have relay on your policy then they will transport you and your car anywhere :y
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In most circumstances, I would happily come down to Ramsgate for a weekend, (I did for Seprim) - remove the box, and see what's going on. It's not a difficult job to remove / replace an autobox and TC at all, simply awkward in a couple of stages due to weight.
Whilst I've done it before on my own, I'm not really strong enough to single handedly offer up an autobox to the engine. The location / jacking surface available etc would also be a consideration.
Therefore, I probably can't easily help (Unless we could get a couple of us on it)...
Whatever you do, I don't suggest you drive it any distance if making that noise...
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i got relay but the car will start and run etc so will they not just say its drivable will check all wording on policy
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If you drive it here before the 24th I can drive it up to him while the wife drives my car. I'm not sure how you would get it back though unless he could get it done before I come back on the 27th.
Offer is there if you want :y
Thats really good of you but not sure how the car will run gearbox is constanly tapping now and last thing i would want is the car to go on you especially on the 24th :-[ appreciate the offer Matt thanks for that :y :y
I would have the ridgid bar with me so if it did go It could be dragged by the other one. I've done bristol farnborough dragging a miggy before ::)
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If you drive it here before the 24th I can drive it up to him while the wife drives my car. I'm not sure how you would get it back though unless he could get it done before I come back on the 27th.
Offer is there if you want :y
Thats really good of you but not sure how the car will run gearbox is constanly tapping now and last thing i would want is the car to go on you especially on the 24th :-[ appreciate the offer Matt thanks for that :y :y
I would have the ridgid bar with me so if it did go It could be dragged by the other one. I've done bristol farnborough dragging a miggy before ::)
:o is that something you always carry 8) :o i have got relay so looks like a good option bearing in mind the damage that may be caused by driving the car etc but thanks very much for the offer much appreciated :y :y
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i have been looking at this thread with interest,would somebody care to enlighten me as to what are these "bolts that go through the gearbox into the rear main bearing on the engine",are?
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i have been looking at this thread with interest,would somebody care to enlighten me as to what are these "bolts that go through the gearbox into the rear main bearing on the engine",are?
I think it's the two that go up vertically just forward of the bellhousing mounting face, so don't actually go through the gearbox.
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Just about visible in this pic. Either side of the inspection hole.
(http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Albs59/DSCF1284.jpg)
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i have been looking at this thread with interest,would somebody care to enlighten me as to what are these "bolts that go through the gearbox into the rear main bearing on the engine",are?
The two bolts I was refering too go through the rear of the sump casting, think they are around 6 inches long and can be seen when the gearbox is off.
Not making excuse here for my mistake but my phone keeps deciding words for me ;D
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Daz you have a PM dont make me phone you theres no escape ;D ;D
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;D