Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Osprey on 28 October 2011, 19:47:06
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My daughter is about to buy 4 new tyres for her Pug 106. She is on a budget so the local tyre place suggested 2 good ones on the rear and 2 cheaper ones on the front - reasoning that she would have trouble controlling a rear wheel skid.
I reckon this is barmy - if you're going down that road you want the good ones on the front, where the drive is, the weight is and most of the braking is. But I'm only a dad, not a tyre salesman, so I know nothing. ???
What do you reckon?
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If I was to buy 2 different "Levels" of tyre I'd put the good ones on the front on a WWD car ;) ;)
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i would of thought put better ones on front
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On the back.
If the back end steps out on a WWD car (or any car, really, unless you're lucky talented) you're a passenger and you're going sideways into a lamppost.
If the front end washes out, get off the throttle and it'll step back into line.. unless you've really hosed it up, in which case you'd have been equally boned with the tyres the other way around (see above lamppost).
(This is why most production cars are designed to understeer, not oversteer)
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shows how much i know ;D
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shows how much i know ;D
It's just my opinion, not gospel ;)
Although that's the reasoning (as it was explained to me) of the tyre companies.. it used to be 'newest on the front', but now it's 'newest on the rear' on the basis that understeer is easier to control and (generally) less lethal..
Well unless you're driving an old clit/205/etc with torsion beam suspension at the back - lift off quick in that and understeer very quickly becomes oversteer.. but that's what made them fun ;D
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shows how much i know ;D
It's just my opinion, not gospel ;)
Although that's the reasoning (as it was explained to me) of the tyre companies.. it used to be 'newest on the front', but now it's 'newest on the rear' on the basis that understeer is easier to control and (generally) less lethal..
Well unless you're driving an old clit/205/etc with torsion beam suspension at the back - lift off quick in that and understeer very quickly becomes oversteer.. but that's what made them fun ;D
You can add Vectra C to that list too ::) ::) Lift off oversteer was great fun in mine :-X :-X
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rear every time, no matter rwd or fwd
reason being understeer tends to be more progressive and controllable, oversteer can catch many out
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Better tyres on the back, understeer is much much easier to control than oversteer.
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Actually, all the reasons make sense, I've just always preferred better on the drive axle
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Actually, all the reasons make sense, I've just always preferred better on the drive axle
I'd put the new tyres at the front on the basis that if the front of the car is going where I want to go, then I've half a chance of making the back of the car follow. Michelin's guide lines are that the new/better tyres go at the back .......... which is why Costco & I had a difference in opinion. ;) ;) ;)
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Or she could save up for another week and buy 4 good tyres all around. Its a bit late when you are sliding towards a tree at 50mph to think " I should have fitted the good tyres to the front/back, what ever".
How about helping her go on a skid pan course, so it she gets into a skid she will know how to control it ?. Its just an idea, something I keep meaning to do my self but have never got round to it. It might improve my driving skills ( if its not too late !) .
how about an OOF Skid Pan Meet ?
Ken
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Actually, all the reasons make sense, I've just always preferred better on the drive axle
I'd put the new tyres at the front on the basis that if the front of the car is going where I want to go, then I've half a chance of making the back of the car follow. Michelin's guide lines are that the new/better tyres go at the back .......... which is why Costco & I had a difference in opinion. ;) ;) ;)
Ive always done the same as above - new on the front. But i suppose being car enthusiasts we should have more of an understanding of under/oversteer & how to react than the average driver. If Mr/Mrs average was to get oversteer i reckon they would just stuff it rather than opposite lock.
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Or she could save up for another week and buy 4 good tyres all around. Its a bit late when you are sliding towards a tree at 50mph to think " I should have fitted the good tyres to the front/back, what ever".
How about helping her go on a skid pan course, so it she gets into a skid she will know how to control it ?. Its just an idea, something I keep meaning to do my self but have never got round to it. It might improve my driving skills ( if its not too late !) .
how about an OOF Skid Pan Meet ?
Ken
Now that would be fun :y :y
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Actually, all the reasons make sense, I've just always preferred better on the drive axle
I'd put the new tyres at the front on the basis that if the front of the car is going where I want to go, then I've half a chance of making the back of the car follow. Michelin's guide lines are that the new/better tyres go at the back .......... which is why Costco & I had a difference in opinion. ;) ;) ;)
most drivers would struggle to deal with oversteer on a FWD car, where as everyone can handle understeer on any car. Plus understeer tends to be progressive, non power induced oversteer tends to be sudden. There are driving gods who can deal with this, but doubt 99.9% of the population can 'in the heat of the moment'
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most drivers would struggle to deal with oversteer on a FWD car, where as everyone can handle understeer on any car. Plus understeer tends to be progressive, non power induced oversteer tends to be sudden. There are driving gods who can deal with this, but doubt 99.9% of the population can 'in the heat of the moment'
And, driving god or not, of there 'ain't enough road to collect it all up again... ::)
My opinion? She's getting 4 tyres, so buy 4 the same, at a level of budget she's happy with. If all 4 are matched the car will handle as the manufacturer intended without any additional bias from tyre choice. One tyre might be grippier, relatively speaking, in the dry, yet really poor in the wet, so you might have a situation where it'll tend to slight understeer in the dry (good) yet hang the tail out in the wet (not good).
Sounds like the tyre depot has decided that, if they can't sting her for 4 premium tyres they might as well try for 2. ::)
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I agree with Kevin
My MV6 has a Sport contact 2 and an Accelera Aplha on the front, and a Goodyear Eagle and a Bridgestone on the rear. Heinz variety ;D
Handles fine. Though.
once i resolve the 'tyre consumtion' issues, I will get a matching set, no question :y
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I agree with Kevin
My MV6 has a Sport contact 2 and an Accelera Aplha on the front, and a Goodyear Eagle and a Bridgestone on the rear. Heinz variety ;D
Handles fine. Though.
once i resolve the 'tyre consumtion' issues, I will get a matching set, no question :y
I seem to remember an insurance company giving some hassle in a claim where mismatched tyres were fitted, although many of us find ourselves with an odd one replacing a punctured/damaged one.
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different tires for front and rear is an open invitation to trouble especially on a rainy climate..
but if I have to choose I'll use the better pair for the front as the brake is more critical..
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I agree with Kevin
My MV6 has a Sport contact 2 and an Accelera Aplha on the front, and a Goodyear Eagle and a Bridgestone on the rear. Heinz variety ;D
Handles fine. Though.
once i resolve the 'tyre consumtion' issues, I will get a matching set, no question :y
I too am running Heinz tyres. Handling is awful, lethal even. But that because one of the tyres just has zero grip in the dry, and even less at the first hint of dampness.
Needless to say, car off the road (before it has me off the road) until I've swapped over that duff tyre.
Duff tyre has around 6mm tread, sure somebody here will buy it ::) ;D ;D
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I agree with Kevin
My MV6 has a Sport contact 2 and an Accelera Aplha on the front, and a Goodyear Eagle and a Bridgestone on the rear. Heinz variety ;D
Handles fine. Though.
once i resolve the 'tyre consumtion' issues, I will get a matching set, no question :y
I seem to remember an insurance company giving some hassle in a claim where mismatched tyres were fitted, although many of us find ourselves with an odd one replacing a punctured/damaged one.
As long as they are correct rating, legal in terms of tread and condition, correct for car, correct type on each axle etc etc, the ins co can sod off :y
TB, I accept what you say that good tread means nothing.... The ones I removed had 5mm. But were awful in the wet...
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TB, I accept what you say that good tread means nothing.... The ones I removed had 5mm. But were awful in the wet...
The point I was making, is...
I have 4 Heinz 57 budgets. My expectations are not high, so I've been tootling around on them, rather than 'being late' everytime I get in the car.
Even with my low expectations, one of these tyres, not that old, is lethal. Nothing visible wrong with it, it just has absolutely zero grip. Zero. None. Zilch. Yet its perfectly legal.
Going to work the other day, was raining though, I could feel it wasn't good, so was pussy footing around. Lost it once at the roundabout near the LPG garage at Towcester. Hmmm, corner (was turning right), garage nearby, maybe spilt diesel, carry on. Had it twitch up the hill out of Towcester on A5 gently accelerating out of the town (in a queue of traffic). Went at Miss Daisy speed from then on. Nearly made it to work, lost it again at under 40mph on a sweeping bend in Bletchley. Got the car home, not entirely incident free, and it hasn't moved since. It clearly should not be allowed on the road.
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Oh, I know its the tyre, as it was on the front at one point, and the car had chronic understeer in the dry. As part of my brake pulling diags, I popped it on the back, and had oversteer. In the dry.
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If you're only getting 2 new tyres, rear axle every time. Much safer.
Here's why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
tried to embed the video but it appears that feature has been removed.
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If you're only getting 2 new tyres, rear axle every time. Much safer.
Here's why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
tried to embed the video but it appears that feature has been removed.
I notice she gave it an armful of steering lock to provoke the oversteer ;D, but fair point, if replacing 2 tyres. I maintain that, if replacing all 4, you should match them.
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If you're only getting 2 new tyres, rear axle every time. Much safer.
Here's why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA
tried to embed the video but it appears that feature has been removed.
I notice she gave it an armful of steering lock to provoke the oversteer ;D, but fair point, if replacing 2 tyres. I maintain that, if replacing all 4, you should match them.
Woops, I only skim read the OP. Thought she was only getting 2 new tyres!
Yeah I agree, should match all 4 where possible.
I'd pay the extra for the 4 premium tyres. You don't want to be crash into something/someone just because you skimped on some rubber.
I've even got a spare set of rims now for my winter tyres!
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I've always gone (on a wwd car) with 'most tread on front' that way you can swap them round so they wear more even, and replace them in sets of four. So generally, mine all stay the same. If say I end up with an odd pair on an axle, they'd go on the front so they get more wear and get replaced sooner. As for the cav, they all match anyway by the laws of not wanting to destroy the 'chocolate teapot' transfer box. And rwd?? Erm... Odds on the back and just boot it everywhere until they need replacing. Then get a complete set and rotate them now and again.
Damn that reminds me, I need for the cav a part worn conti of required size and about 5mm of tread.. Else it's a complete set for that! That's one potentially expensive nail!!
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never ever buy cheap tyres...unless that is your life is cheap..???
as for skid pan should be part of the dsa driving..it is great fun..need to find some who as a skid car as you don't fubar your own tyres...used to do it down at brands hatch
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never ever buy cheap tyres...unless that is your life is cheap..???
as for skid pan should be part of the dsa driving..it is great fun..need to find some who as a skid car as you don't fubar your own tyres...used to do it down at brands hatch
I went on the one at Thruxton once. They had a load of old sierras with bald 155 tyres blown up like balloons and the surface is sprinkled with oily water. No need to use your own car, although the surface has so little friction that I think the mess up the side panels would be more of a worry than tyre wear. ;D
It was quite an eye opener. They guy did the stepping out in front of you while you try to stop / manoeuvre around him thing. He soon realised that he didn't want to do that when my Dad was driving so he found a traffic cone to chuck in front of him instead. ;D
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Skid pans are good fun. My play on one was with a box type Granada, no power steering, and no crossing of hands. Fairly managed to get a sweat on, shuffling that wheel about!
As to tyre position, was told a number of times from various tyre manufacturers/examiners/test drivers that new should go on the rear, irrespective of front or rear wheel drive.
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Skid pans are good fun. My play on one was with a box type Granada, no power steering, and no crossing of hands. Fairly managed to get a sweat on, shuffling that wheel about!
Ahh, yes. that was the first lesson of the day. "No window cleaning!" ;D
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Wow! I thought that was going to be a simple question. Thanks for replies, very interesting. I'll put in one last plea for her to get 4 matching tyres and, failing that, put the mid-prices on the front even though it's counter to my intuition.
As for skid pans - sounds great, I've always wanted to try one out. There have been a few moments over the years but, so far, I've always been able to collect them up somehow. And, like us all I imagine, spent some time in my younger years playing SBs on gravel and grass car parks. But it would be good to do the job properly - me and my daughter. :)