Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Peti on 07 November 2011, 15:08:45
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Haynes says :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Initialstart.jpg)
Well,
- with the fuel relay removed ,
and
- DIS supply disconnected,
starter motor does not react at all.
Should the starter motor work in this situation ?
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Yes, it should. Is the car in Park or Neutral (auto)?
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Auto gearbox, "PARK" position.
Before overhaul , the starter motor worked properly.
Battery brand new.
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Have the straps from chassis to engine block and battery negative to engine block been reinstalled?
Fusible link FV4 (80A) in the PDS box on top of the battery OK?
Sometimes the crimping of the thick cable from the starter into the positive battery terminal can get loose. Is that OK?
Are you getting 12v at the smaller of the 2 connections into the starter, when the key is turned, and 12v at the larger terminal all the time?
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Manana..... :P
Anyway, no doubt, fuel pump relay is this :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Fuelpumprelay.jpg)
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Manana..... :P
Anyway, no doubt, fuel pump relay is this :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Fuelpumprelay.jpg)
That looks right, but neither relay will stop the engine cranking. ;)
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I think the computer is unable to decide WHICH GEAR is switched.
Selector lever switch was dismantled + cleaned + lubricated with vaseline
P : no light (i.e. the small LED is not up)
R : no light
N : no light
D : all lights are up
3 : all lights are up
2 : all lights are up
1 : all lights are up
HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP !!!
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...though I think it's the HARDWARE that prevents starter motor to work, not the SOFTWARE.
If lever is in position "P", the starter motor should work, regardless of the small control lights beside the lever.
Now, let's begin with those lights :
They are in direct connection with the selection lever switch down under.
So if they behave strangely, that switch is to blame, am I right ?
Of course it was adjusted ...but no lights...and then...all lights....I think this has nothing to do with normal adjustment.
So what next ???
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Sounds to me like you might have too much vaseline on the contacts, or the switch is not aligned correctly.
Starter motor interlock is a separate pair of contacts in the same switch assembly. It makes contact in P and N only. It's the black and red pair of fairly thick wires into the switch.
Reversing light also has its' own pair of contacts. Does that work?
The switch also generates a 4 bit coded signal to indicate the selector position. This drives both the lights and the autobox ecu, so if the lights don't work, neither will the gearbox electronics.
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I dismantled the switch (I found it easier to do this lying under the car than trying to disconnect its plug)
I cleaned its connections DRY, than used a microscopic amount of vaseline for lubrication(it MUST be lubricated).
This took me hours and does NOT solve the problem.
What else can I do ?
(Servicing the car is fun.....but I'm after an exhausting overhaul, and I'm really fed up with ...this all. Yesterday I thought the only thing to do is turning the ignition key.....I was wrong)
HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Anyway, reverse lights are working
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...though I think it's the HARDWARE that prevents starter motor to work, not the SOFTWARE.
If lever is in position "P", the starter motor should work, regardless of the small control lights beside the lever.
Now, let's begin with those lights :
They are in direct connection with the selection lever switch down under.
So if they behave strangely, that switch is to blame, am I right ?
Of course it was adjusted ...but no lights...and then...all lights....I think this has nothing to do with normal adjustment.
So what next ???
Not if the selector switch is wrongly adjusted
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Not if the selector switch is wrongly adjusted
Agreed. We have two symptoms that point to some sort of a problem with the switch:
Gear selection lights not working
Starter inhibited.
You can disconnect the selector switch and bridge the black and red wires together in the socket, using a fairly stout bit of wire, as this connection will pull a lot of current. Then see if it will start. If it does, it further confirms a problem with the switch or its' alignment.
Note, however, that if there is a possibility that the gearbox linkage is incorrectly set you need to take precautions in case it's started in gear!
It's been a long time since I played with one of these switches but maybe it's a possibility that it can be reassembled incorrectly?
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I had NO problem with this switch before, I just thought that if the car was to wait for the overhaul in the garage, it's a good opportunity to clean that, too.
If you ask me, adjustment looks PERFECT.
I followed these instructions :
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90673.0
Of course, I did not use a microscope when adjusting, but it really looks O.K.
Can a gap of 0,0000000000001 mm cause it ?
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I had NO problem with this switch before, I just thought that if the car was to wait for the overhaul in the garage, it's a good opportunity to clean that, too.
If you ask me, adjustment looks PERFECT.
I followed these instructions :
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90673.0
Of course, I did not use a microscope when adjusting, but it really looks O.K.
Can a gap of 0,0000000000001 mm cause it ?
I believe you, but the fact remains that it has been disturbed, and there are two faults that point to it as a possible cause. ;)
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Well, if I slacken its retaining bolts and move it back and forth (ignition : II), there should be a moment, when "N" light turnes up.
Someone else(or my mobile phone:O) can watch in inside if it happens at all.
If so, some more adjustment should solve it.
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What was the extent of the work on the engine? Was the engine removed from the car? How long was it since it last ran?
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Engine not removed
Headgaskets changed plus much more work inside + underneath.
Took months.
Please don't tell me some months out of work can cause this.
All connections are cleaned, no rust.
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I was trying to get an image in my mind of what may have been disconnected.
A starter motor *might* struggle if it hasn't been used for months but I would expect that it would be OK if it hasn't got moisture inside.
Did you disconnect any electrical cables when you took the heads off?
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Well, a headgasket change means opening millions of connections....but this time I took ALL cables out in order to check their condition one-by-one and renew coating where necessary .
They were all numbered, I gave no chance for Lucifer :D
All is clean and connected to the right place.
As you can see, this story is not about "struggling" of the motor.
Those lights should not behave like this.
PC's tend to behave strangely when that small battery on the motherboard is down....but I suppose az ECU has no battery inside.
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The Omega starter motor uses a solenoid to engage the starter pinion. When the pinion is engaged it then closes some big contacts to make the motor turn. I was thinking that if it had been standing for long enough (in damp conditions) the pinion might not move when current was applied.
Because we are talking about DC current there is no warning hum or buzz at 50Hz if the solenoid is stuck. It just gets hot :(
It seems to me that you have the knowledge to fix this, you just need the patience to work through step by step
- Battery charged
- power from battery to ignition switch
- power from ignition switch to gearbox inhibitor switch
- power from inhibitor switch to solenoid
- power from battery to alternator & starter (big cable)
- earth/ground from engine back to battery (another big cable)
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As I found circuits O.K., I finally decided to detach battery from the car and attach it directly to starter motor, using two cables("king size") and washers/bolts to make it firm.
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Startermotor.jpg)
No movement, no clicking sound....
This circuit is so simple (no key, no ECU, no inhibitor.....), that the motor should be working, if it can work at all.
After all that work and money spent, now I'm really disappointed.
Any way to repair a starter motor on the kitchen table ?
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Except that the small tab you mark '-' should be '+'
The old trick is simply to bridge the connection from the large stud to the tab
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Ah yes....I mean the BROWN line comoes from the BODY of the motor.....
In fact, mine looks like this :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Startermotor-2.jpg)
Now , line "3" comes from the switch.
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/startermotorcircuit.jpg)
I thought if I connect
- the positive terminal of the battery to line "1" directly
and
- the negative terminal of the battery to the body of the motor
it should work....but it didn't.
Now I also tried to connect :
- the positive terminal of the battery to line "3" directly
and
- the negative terminal of the battery to the body of the motor
....and there was a clicking sound.
Does this mean : solenoid is O.K.....but motor itself is not ?
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Potentialy.
Give it a wallop with a hammer afew times and try again incase the solenoid is seized up
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Potentialy.
Give it a wallop with a hammer afew times and try again incase the solenoid is seized up
Scratch that, connect the pos to line 1, neg to the body (or the engine mount) and then also pos to line 3
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+ > line 1
- > body
No response
+ > line 3
- > body
Clicking sound
Do you mean I am to build a bridge between line 1 and 3 ?
Anyway, is it possible that this story with the silent starter and those lights is about
IMMOBILISER ?
My key is an old style, no radio, no button, but some microchip in it :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Ignitionkey.jpg)
Can it break down after a while ?
What does your car do when you REMOVE that chip from the key ?
Don't your selector lever lights go crazy,too ?
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Do you mean I am to build a bridge between line 1 and 3 ?
Yes, he does :y I believe you need to energise both the starter motor windings and the solenoid coil for full action, so to speak..
On your other points: If you remove the immobiliser chip, the car will turn over but not fire and the immobiliser light on the dashboard should flash when cranking, if I recall correctly. If your immobiliser light goes out or does not flash, you can probably eliminate that probability - and in any case, it should still turn over.
AFAIK the only thing that can make the gearbox selector lights go nuts is a fault in the gearbox selector switch mechanism (which I'd have thought could also kill the starter circuit)..
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I managed to do these tests with practically NO ACCESS to the starter nuts.
I was lucky enough to buy this tool at the supermarket :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Cartool.jpg)
The starter motor was a bit struggling( acceptable, considering those clumsy connectors I made for this task), but DID work.
As regards the selector lever switch down under, it is a real simple device, I mean just a few pieces of wire , no microchip, no anything....
I disconnected/dismantled it again, in order to check if there's a broken cable in it, no problem detected, it's in perfect condition :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Selectorswitch-1.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Selectorswitch-2.jpg)
I was even considering if overtightening of the seven small bolts might cause any problem....no, it does NOT.
Well, I also removed facia during the overhaul ( placing it back was a real "fun" >:( )...and I remembered some white device with a button behind the fuse box under the steering column.
I thought that button might "do something important" :P ....so I lay under the steering column and pushed the button :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Ignitionbutton.jpg)
I cannot tell you what I felt when trying the igniton key again ...and those ....cking lights were working as usual !!! :D
But then ....the solenoid "clicks", starter motor does NOT turn!
So I managed to escape the animals thrown at me by those French gatekeepers...but I'm still outside the castle !
What next ?
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O.K., I just tried again, it works.
Now, Haynes says :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/Haynes-restart-2.jpg)
How long should it take ?
I've tried for some ....10 seconds or so....and I don't want to kill battery.
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"... If you remove the immobiliser chip, the car will turn over...."
Yes, it does, even if I use my spare key, with no microchip in it
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So I managed to escape the animals thrown at me by those French gatekeepers...but I'm still outside the castle !
What next ?
First, Build a great big wooden rabbit... ::)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/MotherWasAHampster.gif)
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Can anyone tell me how long should I try turning the motor with the starter only, waiting for the oil lamp go out ?
I tried again for 20-30 seconds,my battery lost quite a few volts, and I'm a bit uncertain if that lamp would ever go out.
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Never tried on a V6, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it takes 5 or 6 attempts and 30 seconds of cranking each. Fully charge the battery beforehand, remove the spark plugs and dribble a little oil in each bore to reduce the load on the starter, and stop and give it a charge if the battery gets low.
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O.K., it's calming to read, i'll try....
Anyway :
I woke up this morning as a "newbie".
Now that I found that ....cking white rabbit with the black button-eye , that was sucking my blood for 2 days.....can I take a seat at the Round Table ? ( don't forget : I also changed the pollen filter all by myself ! 8) )
Neither Haynes, nor you ever mentioned that bunny....however, it solved the problem.
I've just seen there's a sign on it that reads : "Solve-everything-button"
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O.K., it's calming to read, i'll try....
Anyway :
I woke up this morning as a "newbie".
Now that I found that ....cking white rabbit with the black button-eye , that was sucking my blood for 2 days.....can I take a seat at the Round Table ? ( don't forget : I also changed the pollen filter all by myself ! 8) )
Neither Haynes, nor you ever mentioned that bunny....however, it solved the problem.
I've just seen there's a sign on it that reads : "Solve-everything-button"
So it works then?
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Y
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"...idle controlled by Idle Control Valve, itself controlled by ECU. Do not adjust the screw on the butterflies, you will bugger up the idle....
Now, I tried to start the engine twice.
Both times it goes ...up... and up... and up....
At 3000 rpm I decided to stop, I'm really afraid of doing any harm.
(Anyway, the small "winter mode" lamp at the selector lever is on and I cannot kill it.)
So this is the first start after a headgasket change.
Any idea ?
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The adjustment screw on the butterflies is there to act as a stop to prevent the butterflies (hard metal discs) from chewing into the throttle body (soft metal). As The Boy says you should never need to touch that screw.
If someone has foolishly fiddled with it in the past then I would take the throttle body off the car, hold it up to a light source and adjust the screw so that No light is visible when the throttle is shut. If you unscrew the screw a little too far you will probably feel the the throttle jamming in the closed position.
Unless you have upset the throttle stop screw recently I would leave well alone.
Instead I would check for air leaks (eg inlet manifold 'O' rings, vacuum hose not connected, idle air valve not pushed into hole on manifold etc)
Also I would check that the idle air valve (IAC) is free to move). If you have cleaned it recently you may have disturbed something.
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Let's suppose there's a huge gap somewhere in the breathing and/or vacuum system.
Wouldn't that mean it gets high instantly as I turn the key ?
In fact, it goes slowly and evenly up and up .....takes some 10 seconds until it reaches 3000rpm.
As regards ICV valve : HOW can it be tested if I pull it off ?
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ICV valve indeed looks dirty.
I removed it and saw it was open (some dirt is visible, arrowed with green) :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/IdleControl-open.jpg)
As soon as I touched it with my fingertip, some spring mechanism closed it.
Some gap still left, you can see it between the 2 red arrows, I think it must be some default setting :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/IdleControl-closed.jpg)
The fact ,that I had to touch it to close means it is NOT free to move, because of dirt.
After cleaning, should it be LUBRICATED ? (WD40 ?)
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Yep - clean it and then lubricate with some light oil (I think some '3-in-1' or 'light machine oil' is probably better than WD40, but WD40 is probably easier to get in there..)
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For a while it worked O.K., i.e. at startup went up to 2000rpm, and then smoothly and evenly down to normal idling....... :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/RPMatstart-1.jpg)
Now it works like this ( TC light is ON and OFF during this uncertain period ) :
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i324/porosz23/RPMatstart-2.jpg)
Does this mean the Idle Control Valve should be cleaned again ( or more thoroughly ) ?
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If the TC light is on & off then I would start by eliminating it from your inquiries.
It might be that your TC module is faulty and causing the problem. What happens if you pull the fuse to temporarily disable the TC?
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Fuse removed
Still doing that
Accelerator pedal pushed down
Everything is O.K.
Fuse back
Still O.K.
Seems it was just the pedal !!!
Much ado for nothing !
( ...well, a stuck pedal is not "nothing", but I'm pretty happy I'm not forced to remove anything again... )
Thanks for the reply ( ...and thanks to NASA for lending me their high-tech computer to create those schematic diagrams :O)