Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 15 November 2011, 17:44:56
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I have been pondering the current (world) crisis and the role the banks (money markets if you like) are playing.
Here is my take. The banks loan money to countries who need/want money. Everyone is happy. Then some paper shufflers somewhere spot that the maths don't quite add up and the country doesn't look such a good bet to be able to make its repayments.So what do they do? They UP the interest rate and declare loudly that the (insert name here) country is a bad prospect so the rate goes up and up meaning that the country has less and less money to pay its debts and future debts. Only two possible outcomes. The country sells off its family silver (if it has any or if there are any buyers) OR it defaults meaning the banks lose their money and have to get it back from some other source (otherwise they won't be able to justify continuing to pay themselves fat bonuses)
If it was a family with a loan it would be like upping the mortgage interest rate because a member of the family had lost overtime or a family member had lost their job. Then they couldn't pay their mortgage and ultimately have their home repossessed.
So who actually regulates these bankers who literally have the fate of the world in their hands as they toy with Greece, Italy .....Spain maybe, France who knows where it will end. ????? They could plunge us into a huge depression with their antics. :o :o
maybe just maybe those "grubby" protestors outside St Pauls and Times Square etc have a point :y
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I can't pretend to understand it. ???
What I do know is that the banks make money(lots of it) whatever they do, and pay mega bonus' to those that make it for them :(
Must be a moral to it somewhere, PERHAPS NO MORALS >:(
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I have been pondering the current (world) crisis and the role the banks (money markets if you like) are playing.
Here is my take. The banks loan money to countries who need/want money. Everyone is happy. Then some paper shufflers somewhere spot that the maths don't quite add up and the country doesn't look such a good bet to be able to make its repayments.So what do they do? They UP the interest rate and declare loudly that the (insert name here) country is a bad prospect so the rate goes up and up meaning that the country has less and less money to pay its debts and future debts. Only two possible outcomes. The country sells off its family silver (if it has any or if there are any buyers) OR it defaults meaning the banks lose their money and have to get it back from some other source (otherwise they won't be able to justify continuing to pay themselves fat bonuses)
If it was a family with a loan it would be like upping the mortgage interest rate because a member of the family had lost overtime or a family member had lost their job. Then they couldn't pay their mortgage and ultimately have their home repossessed.
So who actually regulates these bankers who literally have the fate of the world in their hands as they toy with Greece, Italy .....Spain maybe, France who knows where it will end. ????? They could plunge us into a huge depression with their antics. :o :o
maybe just maybe those "grubby" protestors outside St Pauls and Times Square etc have a point :y
Sorry, Varche, but blaming it all on the banks and "their antics" is simply wrong. Yes, there have been some dodgy lending practices by some banks, but essentially the problem is that certain countries have been spending too much money. You can see that is the case by looking at their debt/GDP ratios. If you add into that cocktail, the fact that eurozone countries have been locked into a single interest rate, you have the recipe for today's problems. Greece should never have been let into the euro in the first place, but it was a political decision and their books were not exactly pukka. Then again, the EU's books aren't exactly pukka, either. The Greek problem (and those of the other PIIGS) has led to contagion because, these days, banking is a globalised business (rightly or wrongly, and in hindsight, probably the latter). It's no use blaming the rating agencies. All they do is estimate the creditworthiness of countries and commercial enterprises. Despite the fact that fools in the EU have actually suggested regulating them (how? They're largely American?), it is a classic case of shooting the messenger, 'cos you don't like to hear the truth. ;)
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Precisely Nick. To put it another way - if the banks and ratings agencied werent keeping an eye on the figures and charging interest/ giving ratings to countries accordingly - we would still have Gormless in No10 telling us that the economy is enjoying the biggest boom in its history,and everything in the U.K. garden is as rosy as it could possibly be. Anything anyone reads/ hears to the contrary is of course from the lying right wing media.
The story would be the same all over the world.Politicians are for the most part liars.The markets are brutal,cruel at times but as we have seen - they cant get away with lying for too long.They are in the final analysis lying to themselves and run themselves into trouble.
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I think, given the mess that exists at the moment, it's fair to say that there's been a marked absence in any form of effective regulation.
It must also be said that there has been more than a fair indication that many people were living well beyond their means by enjoying a lifestyle supported by the availability of ready credit.
Irrespective of where the blame for all this may be justifiably apportioned, what must be obvious is that the further ‘we’ stray from basic good sense, the more latitude we give to politicians to massage our tendency to try and improve our standard of ‘living’ by marking that improvement in a materialistic way and the more we depend on a capricious financial industry for our national well-being (rather than manufacturing and industries producing tangible products), the more likely it is that we will continue to be held hostage to those for whom money is god.
Corporatism will be the ruination of many in the coming years.
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A lot of truth in that Den.We (as a country) need to accept that in the short term the financial industry is at present our greatest asset (in financial terms) but we must be determined over the longer term to change that back to a more balanced economy.Thats why Germany is in its very strong position presently,relative to the rest of Europe. :y
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I have been pondering the current (world) crisis and the role the banks (money markets if you like) are playing.
Here is my take. The banks loan money to countries who need/want money. Everyone is happy. Then some paper shufflers somewhere spot that the maths don't quite add up and the country doesn't look such a good bet to be able to make its repayments.So what do they do? They UP the interest rate and declare loudly that the (insert name here) country is a bad prospect so the rate goes up and up meaning that the country has less and less money to pay its debts and future debts. Only two possible outcomes. The country sells off its family silver (if it has any or if there are any buyers) OR it defaults meaning the banks lose their money and have to get it back from some other source (otherwise they won't be able to justify continuing to pay themselves fat bonuses)
If it was a family with a loan it would be like upping the mortgage interest rate because a member of the family had lost overtime or a family member had lost their job. Then they couldn't pay their mortgage and ultimately have their home repossessed.
So who actually regulates these bankers who literally have the fate of the world in their hands as they toy with Greece, Italy .....Spain maybe, France who knows where it will end. ????? They could plunge us into a huge depression with their antics. :o :o
maybe just maybe those "grubby" protestors outside St Pauls and Times Square etc have a point :y
It's no use blaming the rating agencies.
Ok but who rate these rating agencies? Their analysis and announcies are often full of nonsense!
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That is my point. Politicians (in theory) answer to the people and are doing the right things for their country. Money markets have little interest in anything other making money. There is a lot more at stake here than making a bit of money!
Germany- a strong economy. Really? Only while there are people in other countries that can afford to buy their goods. The Italians, Greeks and so on won't be buying much from them pretty soon. Then the French.............
-
Yea...once I've seen a short cartoon about how the bank system is working. Have you ever known that neither of our countries have the right of money printing? This right is owned by a closed financial group all around western world and they can do anything they want.
-
I have been pondering the current (world) crisis and the role the banks (money markets if you like) are playing.
Here is my take. The banks loan money to countries who need/want money. Everyone is happy. Then some paper shufflers somewhere spot that the maths don't quite add up and the country doesn't look such a good bet to be able to make its repayments.So what do they do? They UP the interest rate and declare loudly that the (insert name here) country is a bad prospect so the rate goes up and up meaning that the country has less and less money to pay its debts and future debts. Only two possible outcomes. The country sells off its family silver (if it has any or if there are any buyers) OR it defaults meaning the banks lose their money and have to get it back from some other source (otherwise they won't be able to justify continuing to pay themselves fat bonuses)
If it was a family with a loan it would be like upping the mortgage interest rate because a member of the family had lost overtime or a family member had lost their job. Then they couldn't pay their mortgage and ultimately have their home repossessed.
So who actually regulates these bankers who literally have the fate of the world in their hands as they toy with Greece, Italy .....Spain maybe, France who knows where it will end. ??? ?? They could plunge us into a huge depression with their antics. :o :o
maybe just maybe those "grubby" protestors outside St Pauls and Times Square etc have a point :y
Sorry, Varche, but blaming it all on the banks and "their antics" is simply wrong. Yes, there have been some dodgy lending practices by some banks, but essentially the problem is that certain countries have been spending too much money. You can see that is the case by looking at their debt/GDP ratios. If you add into that cocktail, the fact that eurozone countries have been locked into a single interest rate, you have the recipe for today's problems. Greece should never have been let into the euro in the first place, but it was a political decision and their books were not exactly pukka. Then again, the EU's books aren't exactly pukka, either. The Greek problem (and those of the other PIIGS) has led to contagion because, these days, banking is a globalised business (rightly or wrongly, and in hindsight, probably the latter). It's no use blaming the rating agencies. All they do is estimate the creditworthiness of countries and commercial enterprises. Despite the fact that fools in the EU have actually suggested regulating them (how? They're largely American?), it is a classic case of shooting the messenger, 'cos you don't like to hear the truth. ;)
good points Nickbat.. but there remains still many questions to be asked.. first and the most important, how in history these banks and capital flow organized at the beginning ? do they have political interactions ? who decides on their actions ? who is the biggest/bigger share holders(s) ?
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I think, given the mess that exists at the moment, it's fair to say that there's been a marked absence in any form of effective regulation.
It must also be said that there has been more than a fair indication that many people were living well beyond their means by enjoying a lifestyle supported by the availability of ready credit.
Irrespective of where the blame for all this may be justifiably apportioned, what must be obvious is that the further ‘we’ stray from basic good sense, the more latitude we give to politicians to massage our tendency to try and improve our standard of ‘living’ by marking that improvement in a materialistic way and the more we depend on a capricious financial industry for our national well-being (rather than manufacturing and industries producing tangible products), the more likely it is that we will continue to be held hostage to those for whom money is god.
Corporatism will be the ruination of many in the coming years.
another good point :y now here is the question : why on earth even on simple subjects there are many strong regulations but especially on a subject which is very critical, regulations are that relaxed ? ;)
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Yea...once I've seen a short cartoon about how the bank system is working. Have you ever known that neither of our countries have the right of money printing? This right is owned by a closed financial group all around western world and they can do anything they want.
phew.. thats the question which costed many lifes and resulted with assasinated presidents.. :y
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actually , if you follow the media you can never find real answers to those questions ..
but if you follow the direction of money and where the flow ends, you will start to realize.. :-X
remember, most people and members here noticed/mentioned about the decline of industrial production ..
(thats not only in UK) strongly related subject to this crysis.. because the biggest financial players decided that
there are more profitable areas which have less risks and beyond control and tax.. :-X
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I've given up trying to figure it all out, so now I'm just going to become an ostrich (and stick my head firmly in the sand)..
It seems the doomsayers (sorry Cem, you always seem to fall into that category with your posts, for me - but you're nowhere near the most doom-y.. I know, that's not a word) tell us that the whole western economy will implode and take everything we know and love with it, leaving us with .. socialism, or communism, I suppose.
So.. I'm just going to hope it holds out long enough that I'm dead & buried by the time it implodes. If anyone wants my, I'll be over here with my head in mmmrrrfffmrfff*muffled*
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I've given up trying to figure it all out, so now I'm just going to become an ostrich (and stick my head firmly in the sand)..
It seems the doomsayers (sorry Cem, you always seem to fall into that category with your posts, for me - but you're nowhere near the most doom-y.. I know, that's not a word) tell us that the whole western economy will implode and take everything we know and love with it, leaving us with .. socialism, or communism, I suppose.
So.. I'm just going to hope it holds out long enough that I'm dead & buried by the time it implodes. If anyone wants my, I'll be over here with my head in mmmrrrfffmrfff*muffled*
Aaronjb, you are a clever man, and if you look to the problem in a simpler fashion you will find the thief ;D
and as for doom, its simple mathematics.. if someone stoles all the food on the table , the people in house will start to eat each other like the situation in EU ;D
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I can assure you, nobody has eaten me in a .. wait, not what you meant.
;D
I know what you mean, though, and I tend to think the same way.. I think I'm still going to stick my head in the sand, though!
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I've given up trying to figure it all out, so now I'm just going to become an ostrich (and stick my head firmly in the sand)..
It seems the doomsayers (sorry Cem, you always seem to fall into that category with your posts, for me - but you're nowhere near the most doom-y.. I know, that's not a word) tell us that the whole western economy will implode and take everything we know and love with it, leaving us with .. socialism, or communism, I suppose.
So.. I'm just going to hope it holds out long enough that I'm dead & buried by the time it implodes. If anyone wants my, I'll be over here with my head in mmmrrrfffmrfff*muffled*
Aaronjb, you are a clever man, and if you look to the problem in a simpler fashion you will find the thief ;D
and as for doom, its simple mathematics.. if someone stoles all the food on the table , the people in house will start to eat each other like the situation in EU ;D
if someone stoles all the food on the table , the people in house will start to eat each other like the situation in EU
Sadly, the table is being prepared at the moment for that very banquet. :(
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I've given up trying to figure it all out, so now I'm just going to become an ostrich (and stick my head firmly in the sand)..
It seems the doomsayers (sorry Cem, you always seem to fall into that category with your posts, for me - but you're nowhere near the most doom-y.. I know, that's not a word) tell us that the whole western economy will implode and take everything we know and love with it, leaving us with .. socialism, or communism, I suppose.
So.. I'm just going to hope it holds out long enough that I'm dead & buried by the time it implodes. If anyone wants my, I'll be over here with my head in mmmrrrfffmrfff*muffled*
Aaronjb, you are a clever man, and if you look to the problem in a simpler fashion you will find the thief ;D
and as for doom, its simple mathematics.. if someone stoles all the food on the table , the people in house will start to eat each other like the situation in EU ;D
if someone stoles all the food on the table , the people in house will start to eat each other like the situation in EU
Sadly, the table is being prepared at the moment for that very banquet. :(
this is for some , not for masses.. :(
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I can assure you, nobody has eaten me in a .. wait, not what you meant.
;D
I know what you mean, though, and I tend to think the same way.. I think I'm still going to stick my head in the sand, though!
well, thats another kind of politics ;D
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Yea...once I've seen a short cartoon about how the bank system is working. Have you ever known that neither of our countries have the right of money printing? This right is owned by a closed financial group all around western world and they can do anything they want.
And a cartoon it was. M2 money supply is controlled by governments. Here in the UK, Quantitative Easing is a direct mechanism by which more cash is injected into the system and was authorised by the government. It is precisely what you talk of: printing money. Only central banks print money. :y
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Yea...once I've seen a short cartoon about how the bank system is working. Have you ever known that neither of our countries have the right of money printing? This right is owned by a closed financial group all around western world and they can do anything they want.
And a cartoon it was. M2 money supply is controlled by governments. Here in the UK, Quantitative Easing is a direct mechanism by which more cash is injected into the system and was authorised by the government. It is precisely what you talk of: printing money. Only central banks print money. :y
Couldn't have happened if we had the Gold Standard,mind you a little bit of fidusary issue kept the pound rolling along ;D
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That is my point. Politicians (in theory) answer to the people and are doing the right things for their country. Money markets have little interest in anything other making money. There is a lot more at stake here than making a bit of money!
Germany- a strong economy. Really? Only while there are people in other countries that can afford to buy their goods. The Italians, Greeks and so on won't be buying much from them pretty soon. Then the French.............
No. Most politicians these days do what is good for themselves and their coterie. The markets are not faceless monsters. They are the aggregate of manifold financial institutions, many of which are looking after your pensions and savings. There is no one person, or one company looking after them. They react according to where they think they should place your money and expect a return.
There are many faults within modern banking systems but, at the end of the day, they MUST make a profit. After all, who in their right minds would give you an interest-free loan to buy your house/car etc. and meanwhile pay for all their staff, branches and cash machines. We must have banks. We can't hide cash under the pillow. There is an argument for a firewall between retail and capital banking, but that's another story. ;)
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Yea...once I've seen a short cartoon about how the bank system is working. Have you ever known that neither of our countries have the right of money printing? This right is owned by a closed financial group all around western world and they can do anything they want.
And a cartoon it was. M2 money supply is controlled by governments. Here in the UK, Quantitative Easing is a direct mechanism by which more cash is injected into the system and was authorised by the government. It is precisely what you talk of: printing money. Only central banks print money. :y
Couldn't have happened if we had the Gold Standard,mind you a little bit of fidusary issue kept the pound rolling along ;D
Indeed, Cleggy. :y
But sadly we can't turn the clock back. ;)
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Ok but who rate these rating agencies? Their analysis and announcies are often full of nonsense!
No. In their ratings they merely factor in the likelihood of loans being repaid. There is no point in thinking that a bank, for example, is triple-A rated because someone with a vested interest tells you it is. You need a rating agency to let you know that it is holding junk debt and is a high-risk investment. :y
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http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/ (http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/)
::) ::)
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias (http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias)
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http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/ (http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/)
::) ::)
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias (http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias)
“Personally, I’m slightly uncomfortable receiving money in scholarships that come from a direct result of displacing people and depriving them of their lands and their livelihoods,” said Reed McConnell, a Harvard Freshman."
Huh? ??? ??? ???
Maybe when he is older he will understand the real world. ::) ::) ::) ::)
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http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/ (http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/)
::) ::)
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias (http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias)
“Personally, I’m slightly uncomfortable receiving money in scholarships that come from a direct result of displacing people and depriving them of their lands and their livelihoods,” said Reed McConnell, a Harvard Freshman."
Huh? ??? ??? ???
Maybe when he is older he will understand the real world. ::) ::) ::) ::)
come on Nickbat, even the children start to see the reality.. those old teachers telling all time porkies.. and the crysis (which belongs to capitalist system) is so real that no one want to hear stories fairy tales any more ;D
besides , those children from Harvard doesnt belong to the poor class ..
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That is my point. Politicians (in theory) answer to the people and are doing the right things for their country. Money markets have little interest in anything other making money. There is a lot more at stake here than making a bit of money!
Germany- a strong economy. Really? Only while there are people in other countries that can afford to buy their goods. The Italians, Greeks and so on won't be buying much from them pretty soon. Then the French.............
No. Most politicians these days do what is good for themselves and their coterie. The markets are not faceless monsters. They are the aggregate of manifold financial institutions, many of which are looking after your pensions and savings. There is no one person, or one company looking after them. They react according to where they think they should place your money and expect a return.
There are many faults within modern banking systems but, at the end of the day, they MUST make a profit. After all, who in their right minds would give you an interest-free loan to buy your house/car etc. and meanwhile pay for all their staff, branches and cash machines. We must have banks. We can't hide cash under the pillow. There is an argument for a firewall between retail and capital banking, but that's another story. ;)
SCS, DFS and numerous other furniture retailers........ :) :) :)
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http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/ (http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/)
::) ::)
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias (http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias)
“Personally, I’m slightly uncomfortable receiving money in scholarships that come from a direct result of displacing people and depriving them of their lands and their livelihoods,” said Reed McConnell, a Harvard Freshman."
Huh? ??? ??? ???
Maybe when he is older he will understand the real world. ::) ::) ::) ::)
come on Nickbat, even the children start to see the reality.. those old teachers telling all time porkies.. and the crysis (which belongs to capitalist system) is so real that no one want to hear stories fairy tales any more ;D
besides , those children from Harvard doesnt belong to the poor class ..
A few kids walk out of a lecture...and probably wander off to McDonalds for a burger and fries.
Hardly a major event, Cem. ::) ::)
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http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/ (http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/)
::) ::)
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias (http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias)
“Personally, I’m slightly uncomfortable receiving money in scholarships that come from a direct result of displacing people and depriving them of their lands and their livelihoods,” said Reed McConnell, a Harvard Freshman."
Huh? ??? ??? ???
Maybe when he is older he will understand the real world. ::) ::) ::) ::)
come on Nickbat, even the children start to see the reality.. those old teachers telling all time porkies.. and the crysis (which belongs to capitalist system) is so real that no one want to hear stories fairy tales any more ;D
besides , those children from Harvard doesnt belong to the poor class ..
A few kids walk out of a lecture...and probably wander off to McDonalds for a burger and fries.
Hardly a major event, Cem. ::) ::)
;D ;D another head in the sand event ;D :y
-
http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/ (http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/)
::) ::)
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias (http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias)
“Personally, I’m slightly uncomfortable receiving money in scholarships that come from a direct result of displacing people and depriving them of their lands and their livelihoods,” said Reed McConnell, a Harvard Freshman."
Huh? ??? ??? ???
Maybe when he is older he will understand the real world. ::) ::) ::) ::)
come on Nickbat, even the children start to see the reality.. those old teachers telling all time porkies.. and the crysis (which belongs to capitalist system) is so real that no one want to hear stories fairy tales any more ;D
besides , those children from Harvard doesnt belong to the poor class ..
A few kids walk out of a lecture...and probably wander off to McDonalds for a burger and fries.
Hardly a major event, Cem. ::) ::)
;D ;D another head in the sand event ;D :y
If you really want to live in Marxist state, Cem, then that's fine by me. But not here, thanks. ;)
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No. Most politicians these days do what is good for themselves and their coterie. The markets are not faceless monsters. They are the aggregate of manifold financial institutions, many of which are looking after your pensions and savings. There is no one person, or one company looking after them. They react according to where they think they should place your money and expect a return.
There are many faults within modern banking systems but, at the end of the day, they MUST make a profit. After all, who in their right minds would give you an interest-free loan to buy your house/car etc. and meanwhile pay for all their staff, branches and cash machines. We must have banks. We can't hide cash under the pillow. There is an argument for a firewall between retail and capital banking, but that's another story. ;)
Yes, as a matter of fact I can agree with that analysis - however;
they MUST make a profit
this drive/lust for profit, at apparently any cost, has laid bare the basic failing in the human condition - the desire to have something that another has not and to exploit others/ a system to get it.
Irresponsible financial dealings have, amongst other things, been responsible for all but discrediting the banking industry; in addition, many aspects of market trading seem little more than naked gambling by wide boys divorced from the reality of ordinary day to day living.
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That is my point. Politicians (in theory) answer to the people and are doing the right things for their country. Money markets have little interest in anything other making money. There is a lot more at stake here than making a bit of money!
Germany- a strong economy. Really? Only while there are people in other countries that can afford to buy their goods. The Italians, Greeks and so on won't be buying much from them pretty soon. Then the French.............
No. Most politicians these days do what is good for themselves and their coterie. The markets are not faceless monsters. They are the aggregate of manifold financial institutions, many of which are looking after your pensions and savings. There is no one person, or one company looking after them. They react according to where they think they should place your money and expect a return.
There are many faults within modern banking systems but, at the end of the day, they MUST make a profit. After all, who in their right minds would give you an interest-free loan to buy your house/car etc. and meanwhile pay for all their staff, branches and cash machines. We must have banks. We can't hide cash under the pillow. There is an argument for a firewall between retail and capital banking, but that's another story. ;)
SCS, DFS and numerous other furniture retailers........ :) :) :)
I must go into my local DFS and order my chequebook, re-arrange my mortgage and pension, withdraw cash from their ATM and, while they're about it, ask how many branches will deal with my deposits and transfers.
Chalk and cheese, Varche. ;)
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No. Most politicians these days do what is good for themselves and their coterie. The markets are not faceless monsters. They are the aggregate of manifold financial institutions, many of which are looking after your pensions and savings. There is no one person, or one company looking after them. They react according to where they think they should place your money and expect a return.
There are many faults within modern banking systems but, at the end of the day, they MUST make a profit. After all, who in their right minds would give you an interest-free loan to buy your house/car etc. and meanwhile pay for all their staff, branches and cash machines. We must have banks. We can't hide cash under the pillow. There is an argument for a firewall between retail and capital banking, but that's another story. ;)
Yes, as a matter of fact I can agree with that analysis - however;
they MUST make a profit
this drive/lust for profit, at apparently any cost, has laid bare the basic failing in the human condition - the desire to have something that another has not and to exploit others/ a system to get it.
Irresponsible financial dealings have, amongst other things, been responsible for all but discrediting the banking industry, in addition many aspects of market trading seem little more than naked gambling by wide boys divorced from the reality of ordinary day to day living.
The alternative to making a profit is making a loss. The chances of keeping total balance are negligible. I know which I prefer.
I am astounded these days by how many people deride the "speculators" yet are still gamblers themselves. A shopkeeper will go to the cash-and-carry to buy goods that he will (speculatively) put on his shelves and, he hopes, sell at a profit. We all pay into a pension and, hope, that it will still pay enough to keep us going in our dotage to pay for a decent life for (hopefully) quite a few years, even though we have ceased to be productive.
The alternative to this system is one by which the state will decide how much your efforts are worth and will pay you accordingly. The state will decide how much you charge for eggs and bread. The state will set the prices and the returns for everything. The state will decide what is produced. The lazy will be rewarded as much as the industrious, for there is no market measure of performance.
We would live in a grey world, devoid of independence, free thought and free activity. Yes, you would hopefully not starve, but life would be so interminably dull and devoid of drive and ambition, you may as well be dead... :(
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http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/ (http://www.legalforensicauditors.com/2011/11/10/harvard-economics-students-walk-out-of-class-in-protest-for-professor-teaching-economics-in-a-manner-favorable-to-elitism-and-corporate-control/)
::) ::)
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias (http://www.npr.org/2011/11/03/141969009/economics-class-protests-perceived-bias)
“Personally, I’m slightly uncomfortable receiving money in scholarships that come from a direct result of displacing people and depriving them of their lands and their livelihoods,” said Reed McConnell, a Harvard Freshman."
Huh? ??? ??? ???
Maybe when he is older he will understand the real world. ::) ::) ::) ::)
come on Nickbat, even the children start to see the reality.. those old teachers telling all time porkies.. and the crysis (which belongs to capitalist system) is so real that no one want to hear stories fairy tales any more ;D
besides , those children from Harvard doesnt belong to the poor class ..
A few kids walk out of a lecture...and probably wander off to McDonalds for a burger and fries.
Hardly a major event, Cem. ::) ::)
;D ;D another head in the sand event ;D :y
If you really want to live in Marxist state, Cem, then that's fine by me. But not here, thanks. ;)
Nick, actually its not a question of what system I prefer to live.. its the reality of this system what forces us to see which was pointed out long time ago by Marx.. many people lost their jobs, despite the countries/worlds population increase which means demands for many things increase.. but the industrial productions decrease .. and the money in the markets flew from one point to another faster than the speed of light and leaving masses /govts frustrared/helpless.. and then we try to pay back/solve/balance the problem with our taxes ..
its not a simple problem of countries spending more than their income.. because they were shown a film which they were led to believe its real and at one point the clock gongs 12 o clock in cinderella story and all horses become rats and the car turns to a pumpkin..
no one have the right to play with masses lifes in that way.. and please remember some people in middle east pay with their lifes not only with their jobs.. :(
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No. Most politicians these days do what is good for themselves and their coterie. The markets are not faceless monsters. They are the aggregate of manifold financial institutions, many of which are looking after your pensions and savings. There is no one person, or one company looking after them. They react according to where they think they should place your money and expect a return.
There are many faults within modern banking systems but, at the end of the day, they MUST make a profit. After all, who in their right minds would give you an interest-free loan to buy your house/car etc. and meanwhile pay for all their staff, branches and cash machines. We must have banks. We can't hide cash under the pillow. There is an argument for a firewall between retail and capital banking, but that's another story. ;)
Yes, as a matter of fact I can agree with that analysis - however;
they MUST make a profit
this drive/lust for profit, at apparently any cost, has laid bare the basic failing in the human condition - the desire to have something that another has not and to exploit others/ a system to get it.
Irresponsible financial dealings have, amongst other things, been responsible for all but discrediting the banking industry, in addition many aspects of market trading seem little more than naked gambling by wide boys divorced from the reality of ordinary day to day living.
The alternative to making a profit is making a loss. The chances of keeping total balance are negligible. I know which I prefer.
I am astounded these days by how many people deride the "speculators" yet are still gamblers themselves. A shopkeeper will go to the cash-and-carry to buy goods that he will (speculatively) put on his shelves and, he hopes, sell at a profit. We all pay into a pension and, hope, that it will still pay enough to keep us going in our dotage to pay for a decent life for (hopefully) quite a few years, even though we have ceased to be productive.
The alternative to this system is one by which the state will decide how much your efforts are worth and will pay you accordingly. The state will decide how much you charge for eggs and bread. The state will set the prices and the returns for everything. The state will decide what is produced. The lazy will be rewarded as much as the industrious, for there is no market measure of performance.
We would live in a grey world, devoid of independence, free thought and free activity. Yes, you would hopefully not starve, but life would be so interminably dull and devoid of drive and ambition, you may as well be dead... :(
Sums it up nicely. :y
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The alternative to making a profit is making a loss. The chances of keeping total balance are negligible. I know which I prefer.
I am astounded these days by how many people deride the "speculators" yet are still gamblers themselves. A shopkeeper will go to the cash-and-carry to buy goods that he will (speculatively) put on his shelves and, he hopes, sell at a profit. We all pay into a pension and, hope, that it will still pay enough to keep us going in our dotage to pay for a decent life for (hopefully) quite a few years, even though we have ceased to be productive.
The alternative to this system is one by which the state will decide how much your efforts are worth and will pay you accordingly. The state will decide how much you charge for eggs and bread. The state will set the prices and the returns for everything. The state will decide what is produced. The lazy will be rewarded as much as the industrious, for there is no market measure of performance.
We would live in a grey world, devoid of independence, free thought and free activity. Yes, you would hopefully not starve, but life would be so interminably dull and devoid of drive and ambition, you may as well be dead... :(
Why are we in this mess at the moment?
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Hi guys,
My opinion is this:
Everyone is guilty; the banks for lending to people who can't afford to pay loans back and also completely screwing up in commercial debt. and also people who take loans out. there nees to be some personal responsibility too. and finally labour's fault for not imputtin regulations prior to the collapse.
however i do also think that the ''crisis'' isnt that bad and that the newspapers have sensationalised something that of course has the potential to get out of hand but actually is nowhere near it.
jusrt my opinion ;)
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The alternative to making a profit is making a loss. The chances of keeping total balance are negligible. I know which I prefer.
I am astounded these days by how many people deride the "speculators" yet are still gamblers themselves. A shopkeeper will go to the cash-and-carry to buy goods that he will (speculatively) put on his shelves and, he hopes, sell at a profit. We all pay into a pension and, hope, that it will still pay enough to keep us going in our dotage to pay for a decent life for (hopefully) quite a few years, even though we have ceased to be productive.
The alternative to this system is one by which the state will decide how much your efforts are worth and will pay you accordingly. The state will decide how much you charge for eggs and bread. The state will set the prices and the returns for everything. The state will decide what is produced. The lazy will be rewarded as much as the industrious, for there is no market measure of performance.
We would live in a grey world, devoid of independence, free thought and free activity. Yes, you would hopefully not starve, but life would be so interminably dull and devoid of drive and ambition, you may as well be dead... :(
Why are we in this mess at the moment?
My own opinion?
Socialist EU, socialist POTUS :(
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Nick, actually its not a question of what system I prefer to live.. its the reality of this system what forces us to see which was pointed out long time ago by Marx..
Yep, we live much longer, have higher standards of living, are able to communicate instantly with anyone in the world, are able to travel to see others who live thousands of miles apart...etc.
All of which comes from capitalism.
Bit of a buggeration isn't it? ::) ::)
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The alternative to making a profit is making a loss. The chances of keeping total balance are negligible. I know which I prefer.
I am astounded these days by how many people deride the "speculators" yet are still gamblers themselves. A shopkeeper will go to the cash-and-carry to buy goods that he will (speculatively) put on his shelves and, he hopes, sell at a profit. We all pay into a pension and, hope, that it will still pay enough to keep us going in our dotage to pay for a decent life for (hopefully) quite a few years, even though we have ceased to be productive.
The alternative to this system is one by which the state will decide how much your efforts are worth and will pay you accordingly. The state will decide how much you charge for eggs and bread. The state will set the prices and the returns for everything. The state will decide what is produced. The lazy will be rewarded as much as the industrious, for there is no market measure of performance.
We would live in a grey world, devoid of independence, free thought and free activity. Yes, you would hopefully not starve, but life would be so interminably dull and devoid of drive and ambition, you may as well be dead... :(
Why are we in this mess at the moment?
My own opinion?
Socialist EU, socialist POTUS :(
I can certainly agree with that - but what about those in the banking/financial sector determined to maximise profit at all costs?
If the consequences of individuals having free thought, independence and the right to exploit their talents to get ahead have been responsible for creating a situation so serious that international conflict may ensue, then perhaps we should examine what can be done to have people act responsibly while maintaining that essential independence.
With freedom comes responsibility.
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The alternative to making a profit is making a loss. The chances of keeping total balance are negligible. I know which I prefer.
I am astounded these days by how many people deride the "speculators" yet are still gamblers themselves. A shopkeeper will go to the cash-and-carry to buy goods that he will (speculatively) put on his shelves and, he hopes, sell at a profit. We all pay into a pension and, hope, that it will still pay enough to keep us going in our dotage to pay for a decent life for (hopefully) quite a few years, even though we have ceased to be productive.
The alternative to this system is one by which the state will decide how much your efforts are worth and will pay you accordingly. The state will decide how much you charge for eggs and bread. The state will set the prices and the returns for everything. The state will decide what is produced. The lazy will be rewarded as much as the industrious, for there is no market measure of performance.
We would live in a grey world, devoid of independence, free thought and free activity. Yes, you would hopefully not starve, but life would be so interminably dull and devoid of drive and ambition, you may as well be dead... :(
Why are we in this mess at the moment?
My own opinion?
Socialist EU, socialist POTUS :(
I can certainly agree with that - but what about those in the banking/financial sector determined to maximise profit at all costs?
If the consequences of individuals having free thought, independence and the right to exploit their talents to get ahead have been responsible for creating a situation so serious that international conflict may ensue, then perhaps we should examine what can be done to have people act responsibly while maintaining that essential independence.
With freedom comes responsibility.
Unless I am mistaken, international conflicts were relatively common long before the establishment of banking and financial sectors. ;) ;D
The problem, IMHO, lies with governments and the political classes which they comprise. Too ready to seek influence and too ready to seek patronage from large corporates (witness how many ex-ministers are now directors!). The markets should be left to get on with it and governments should only intervene when there is a genuine grievance/cultural issue with the system which needs addressing.
Besides which, I see no evidence of international tension. Civil disorder, though, is highly likely. :(
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Unless I am mistaken, international conflicts were relatively common long before the establishment of banking and financial sectors. ;) ;D
The problem, IMHO, lies with governments and the political classes which they comprise. Too ready to seek influence and too ready to seek patronage from large corporates (witness how many ex-ministers are now directors!). The markets should be left to get on with it and governments should only intervene when there is a genuine grievance/cultural issue with the system which needs addressing.
Besides which, I see no evidence of international tension. Civil disorder, though, is highly likely. :(
Unless I am mistaken, international conflicts were relatively common long before the establishment of banking and financial sectors.
And the desire to acquire money, power, influence and the ability to shape events to the choosing of those engaged in hostilities played little part in many of those conflicts?
In my view we, as a race, are in a much more precarious state in terms of security than we have ever been, yes there will be civil disorder without doubt - but on that back of a general decline in order conflict will spread beyond national borders.
The markets should be left to get on with it
That is precisely what has happened Nick and that is partly why we are in the present mess. Give people the ability to acquire wealth by manipulating events and they will do so irrespective of the consequences - its part of the human failing.
Like communism, naked capitalism will always show the less savoury aspects of the human condition - the desire to put one's self before anybody else and to try to survive and prosper at all costs.
I also see the irony of my comments in light of our system allowing me to retire 5 years ahead of the present norm on a final salary scheme and I’m thankful for it, however I can see also its failings - and many of those stem from the irresponsible behaviour we have seen in the banking and financial sectors, big business and corporatism where the bottom line is the word of God and the prime reason for being.
Greed and avarice will fuel the fires of conflict.
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Nick, actually its not a question of what system I prefer to live.. its the reality of this system what forces us to see which was pointed out long time ago by Marx..
Yep, we live much longer, have higher standards of living, are able to communicate instantly with anyone in the world, are able to travel to see others who live thousands of miles apart...etc.
All of which comes from capitalism.
Bit of a buggeration isn't it? ::) ::)
technological developments will happen regardless of the economic system applied.. and please do not ignore most of the scientific inventions/principles were done/written long time before modern capitalism.. and most of those scientists/inventors died under very poor conditions :-\
aside from all these factors , none of the economic systems ignore banking and acumulation of money/labour but we must point out that modern capitalism is the most dangerous one for human future as the uncontrollable greeds of powerful elite costs so much to human kind and to nature which the only thing we can give to our children ..
honestly speaking, a system which prefers chaos,disorder and wars even can not be called as a system..
a simple question : why do you think the powerful elite dont enforce birth control ?
because they need cheap working slaves for their big profits.. do you think, they dont see this population increase is damaging the earth and all its resources ? yes they do.. >:(
but for them solutions are simple, start a war , use mass destruction weapons and solve the problem.. and another question : what system build the first atomic bomb and use science against human kind ? (dont tell me it was necessary to finish the war, Japan was already on its knees)
ok.. I'll cut the story here.. capitalism is a point on human kind develeopment line, and when the day comes, it will eventually be thrown aside.. :)
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The alternative to making a profit is making a loss. The chances of keeping total balance are negligible. I know which I prefer.
I am astounded these days by how many people deride the "speculators" yet are still gamblers themselves. A shopkeeper will go to the cash-and-carry to buy goods that he will (speculatively) put on his shelves and, he hopes, sell at a profit. We all pay into a pension and, hope, that it will still pay enough to keep us going in our dotage to pay for a decent life for (hopefully) quite a few years, even though we have ceased to be productive.
The alternative to this system is one by which the state will decide how much your efforts are worth and will pay you accordingly. The state will decide how much you charge for eggs and bread. The state will set the prices and the returns for everything. The state will decide what is produced. The lazy will be rewarded as much as the industrious, for there is no market measure of performance.
We would live in a grey world, devoid of independence, free thought and free activity. Yes, you would hopefully not starve, but life would be so interminably dull and devoid of drive and ambition, you may as well be dead... :(
Why are we in this mess at the moment?
My own opinion?
Socialist EU, socialist POTUS :(
I can certainly agree with that - but what about those in the banking/financial sector determined to maximise profit at all costs?
If the consequences of individuals having free thought, independence and the right to exploit their talents to get ahead have been responsible for creating a situation so serious that international conflict may ensue, then perhaps we should examine what can be done to have people act responsibly while maintaining that essential independence.
With freedom comes responsibility.
Unless I am mistaken, international conflicts were relatively common long before the establishment of banking and financial sectors. ;) ;D
The problem, IMHO, lies with governments and the political classes which they comprise. Too ready to seek influence and too ready to seek patronage from large corporates (witness how many ex-ministers are now directors!). ** The markets should be left to get on with it and governments should only intervene when there is a genuine grievance/cultural issue with the system which needs addressing.
Besides which, I see no evidence of international tension. Civil disorder, though, is highly likely. :(
do you really think the ruling elite which rules even govts will permit that.. they shift the markets and even plan many steps ahead on the chess game!!
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Yea...once I've seen a short cartoon about how the bank system is working. Have you ever known that neither of our countries have the right of money printing? This right is owned by a closed financial group all around western world and they can do anything they want.
And a cartoon it was. M2 money supply is controlled by governments. Here in the UK, Quantitative Easing is a direct mechanism by which more cash is injected into the system and was authorised by the government. It is precisely what you talk of: printing money. Only central banks print money. :y
not in America..FED is not a central bank..its private ;)
and also may I remind Bank of England was nationalised in 1946. ;) and there are more interesting details ???
http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2010/02/who-owns-bank-of-england.html (http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2010/02/who-owns-bank-of-england.html)
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The main problem, IMHO, is that the banks have grown so large that it matters to us how they operate their business.
Taking nickbat's shopkeeper analogy, if a shopkeeper decides to operate his business in a risky manner, he'll either get rich or go out of business. We wouldn't care either way because there are plenty of other shops. Some might see the Bentley parked outside and shop elsewhere. Another shopkeeper will be more prudent and make a modest living, but survive in business through thick and thin. Either way, diversity means there'll probably be a shop when I need one.
We all (personally, and as a state) have so much at stake with huge banks that they can't be allowed to suffer the consequences of their actions - so, you can't be allowed to go out of business. What do you go for? modest or rich?
There is, of course, another issue that we have surrounded ourselves with politicians who are only interested in lining their own pockets. We can only hope that they haven't got such a foothold yet that they can be removed by non-violent means. Doing so would require the general populus to wake up and smell the coffee, though. ::)
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I take this passage from my link above as its really important..
"the powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole"
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Fair point about the problem of "too big to fail " banks Kevin. Problem is though, they are global organistaions,so its hard to see how that problem can be addressed.We have morons like Cable saying he will break them up etc. and solve the problem but he is just grandstanding,playing to the gallery etc. I assume he isnt stupid enough to believe his own words,although you never know..... ::)
Globalisation is probably the biggest problem in the practical sense,as banks in any given country are leveraged to banks in most other countries.One country sneezes,alll the others catch a cold.
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Interesting thread. Broadly speaking, I agree with Cem........and disagree (as usual ;)) with Albs and Nickbat. :)
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So the answer is ?.................... ::)
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So the answer is ?.................... ::)
That's the disturbing thing son - I don't think there's a ready answer, sadly.
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Thats the thing Den.Capitalism is far from perfect.Its been very imperfect recently,but if the alternative is socialism - its a no brainer imo. ;)
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Thats the thing Den.Capitalism is far from perfect.Its been very imperfect recently,but if the alternative is socialism - its a no brainer imo. ;)
Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you son, it's very easy to bitch about the present arrangements and where we presently sit but in reality, there's little to adopt as an alternative at the moment.
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::) ::) ;D ;D
socialism depends on who applies it.. if its bend, its not socialism.. that said, it depends highly on the community applied and
its culture, past history, industry , economic conditions etc etc.. for example you cant apply socialism easily on a half feodal , non industrialized, religious state (many 3rd world countries) ..and you cant apply this also on a old imperial state which have strong historical capitalist ties and relations with whole out the world..if someone or some party claims that its applicable, I just smile.. ::)
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It defies human nature Cem - the desire to improve your personal circumstances by working harder than the next man and making best use of your individual talents,it requires everyone to live at the same average level, it negates the basic human need to progress,in short it removes individuality,and thats why it has never worked and never will. ;)
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It defies human nature Cem - the desire to improve your personal circumstances by working harder than the next man and making best use of your individual talents,it requires everyone to live at the same average level, it negates the basic human need to progress,in short it removes individuality,and thats why it has never worked and never will. ;)
it worked and still working.. ;D :y
I must add though , its also applicable to capitalist states but problem is leading elites will never permit that without big fights/wars.. :(
remember , when the crisis start to show its head they immediately shift to socialist state precautions ;D but these are whole measures , must be applied completely.. :-\
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It defies human nature Cem - the desire to improve your personal circumstances by working harder than the next man and making best use of your individual talents,it requires everyone to live at the same average level, it negates the basic human need to progress,in short it removes individuality,and thats why it has never worked and never will. ;)
it worked and still working.. ;D :y
I must add though , its also applicable to capitalist states but problem is leading elites will never permit that without big fights/wars.. :(
remember , when the crisis start to show its head they immediately shift to socialist state precautions ;D but these are whole measures , must be applied completely.. :-\
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Its still a matter of debate among capitalists whether or not the govts. should have got involved in bailouts etc.Cem. Its done now,so no point wondering what might have happened if they had taken the other route.
I dont know where this place is where socialism is currently working ? It failed in USSR,China,Cuba - where else is left ? :-\
If you worked in a bodyshop as a highly skilled paint sprayer earning,say £500 per week and there was a guy who sweeps the floor and makes the coffee who earns £150 per week,would you be happy for the govt. to decide that you both earn £325 per week ? ;)
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It defies human nature Cem - the desire to improve your personal circumstances by working harder than the next man and making best use of your individual talents,it requires everyone to live at the same average level, it negates the basic human need to progress,in short it removes individuality,and thats why it has never worked and never will. ;)
Some of what you say here, I actually agree with, Albs. But who bailed out the capitalist banking system when things went tits up?...Ah yes, it was good old "Nanny Socialist" who came to the rescue. Exactly what sort of capitalism is that?
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Read my post above. ;).............Im not convinced they should have done it tbh.We were told that the alternative was armageddon.
It may yet turn out that armageddon was just delayed by a few years.The mess we are in now doesnt exactly bode well for state interference in the markets or economic matters in general.
And lets not forget that politicians ,here and in the U.S played no small part in steering the banks in the direction which put them in the situation of "going tits up". ;)
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Its still a matter of debate among capitalists whether or not the govts. should have got involved in bailouts etc.Cem. Its done now,so no point wondering what might have happened if they had taken the other route.
I dont know where this place is where socialism is currently working ? It failed in USSR,China,Cuba - where else is left ? :-\
If you worked in a bodyshop as a highly skilled paint sprayer earning,say £500 per week and there was a guy who sweeps the floor and makes the coffee who earns £150 per week,would you be happy for the govt. to decide that you both earn £325 per week ? ;)
socialism doesnt say everyone must got the same salary.. this is also not true for those socialist countries..
its an old horror story and I hope you also dont believe it.. ;D
another factor is that these 3 countries still on feet without any external credit or other help.. but from these it may be interesting to know USA is in credit to China 1.2 trillion US$ ;D
ps: I called them as socialist countries but the level of them varies and I can say they are still far from perfect..
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Well we haven't learnt much new.
A bit of drift onto socialism, capitalism.
I was really just highlighting the fact that a few hyperactive spotty oiks with six or more computer screens each to look at are making judgements which have far reaching and profound effects on us ordinary people in the country that they have targeted for the day/week/year . Sure they will make money for their company and thus bonuses. BUT no one is actually regulating the rates of interest that they decided to charge. How does charging 7% interest today(15th Nov) help the people of Spain get back onto their feet? It doesn't. If they charge 8% on new loans to Spain tomorrow will that help? I don't think so for a minute.
For a highly regulated world that we live in in the West (can't smoke while driving, can't this that and the other) it seems bizarre that even the politicians have no control over these so called money markets. Maybe the loans to countries should be capped at RPI minus 3% like they did to companies like BT a few years back!!! ;D ;D ;D After all some return on investment is better than the haircut milarky i.e. writing off the loan.
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Well we haven't learnt much new.
A bit of drift onto socialism, capitalism.
I was really just highlighting the fact that a few hyperactive spotty oiks with six or more computer screens each to look at are making judgements which have far reaching and profound effects on us ordinary people in the country that they have targeted for the day/week/year . Sure they will make money for their company and thus bonuses. BUT no one is actually regulating the rates of interest that they decided to charge. How does charging 7% interest today(15th Nov) help the people of Spain get back onto their feet? It doesn't. If they charge 8% on new loans to Spain tomorrow will that help? I don't think so for a minute.
For a highly regulated world that we live in in the West (can't smoke while driving, can't this that and the other) ** it seems bizarre that even the politicians have no control over these so called money markets. Maybe the loans to countries should be capped at RPI minus 3% like they did to companies like BT a few years back!!! ;D ;D ;D After all some return on investment is better than the haircut milarky i.e. writing off the loan.
definitely politicians have no role on markets .. they are nothing more than an actor on a game written by olympos..
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Thats the thing Den.Capitalism is far from perfect.Its been very imperfect recently,but if the alternative is socialism - its a no brainer imo. ;)
Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you son, it's very easy to bitch about the present arrangements and where we presently sit but in reality, there's little to adopt as an alternative at the moment.
I'm living in a post-socialst country, remember well to the time of socialism when I got my profession. Everybody had a job but nobody did anything, everybody complained despite of their acceptable salary, we had some banana from Cuba but that's quantity was strictly limited...There was a lot of millionars although talking about them could be just whisperly.(Party funktioners/officers) Socialism - marxism maybe good ideology but only in case of professional leadership, the collapse of kommunism/socialism was expectable so it was led by selfish idiots. And back to now, who lead the banks and rating agencies? Selfish idiots as well, crisis made by banks and wasn't precognised by rating agencies. The circle is closed.
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http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm (http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm)
please look in the picture and tell me there is democracy ;D :D
ps: I forgot to say this is USA.. :D
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http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm (http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm)
please look in the picture and tell me there is democracy ;D :D
ps: I forgot to say this is USA.. :D
yup .. Democracy in action .... the MAJORITY (thats what democracy is about) want nothing to do with the MINORITY of rabble rousers.
If more attention was paid to the majority opinion instead of the "vocal minorities" then half the political stupidity would vanish. One of the main problems with modern politics is that a very few "vocal minorities" are given far to much power in order that another party can keep power.
Politicians then listen to these idiotic minorities and give them even more power
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http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm (http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm)
please look in the picture and tell me there is democracy ;D :D
ps: I forgot to say this is USA.. :D
yup .. Democracy in action .... the MAJORITY (thats what democracy is about) want nothing to do with the MINORITY of rabble rousers.
If more attention was paid to the majority opinion instead of the "vocal minorities" then half the political stupidity would vanish. One of the main problems with modern politics is that a very few "vocal minorities" are given far to much power in order that another party can keep power.
Politicians then listen to these idiotic minorities and give them even more power
if you have checked the other pictures , the police force (govt force) dont seem to know what is democracy ;D :D
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/Dunya/SonDakika.aspx?aType=SonDakikaGaleri&ArticleID=1464421&PAGE=4 (http://www.milliyet.com.tr/Dunya/SonDakika.aspx?aType=SonDakikaGaleri&ArticleID=1464421&PAGE=4)
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http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm (http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm)
please look in the picture and tell me there is democracy ;D :D
ps: I forgot to say this is USA.. :D
"There have been multiple incidents of assault, drug dealing and drug use, rape and attempted rape, according to conversations with numerous protesters. And the problem, they say, is getting worse.
In the past several weeks, the cluster of tents at the west end of the park -- the farthest section from the bustle of working groups and activity near Broadway -- has grown increasingly dangerous, many say. The sanitation team has reported finding needles in tents, and reports of crack and crystal meth use have surfaced. But the most serious concern most protesters say, is the risk of assault, especially for women and at night."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/01/occupy-wall-street-security_n_1069597.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/01/occupy-wall-street-security_n_1069597.html)
(The Huffington Post is a left-leaning newspaper)
This has nothing to with democracy/lack of democracy. The vast majority of people wish to go about their business without hindrance, as is their democratic right. Same situation outside St Paul's. These people have had their say..now it's time to [them] move on. ;)
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http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm (http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm)
please look in the picture and tell me there is democracy ;D :D
ps: I forgot to say this is USA.. :D
yup .. Democracy in action .... the MAJORITY (thats what democracy is about) want nothing to do with the MINORITY of rabble rousers.
If more attention was paid to the majority opinion instead of the "vocal minorities" then half the political stupidity would vanish. One of the main problems with modern politics is that a very few "vocal minorities" are given far to much power in order that another party can keep power.
Politicians then listen to these idiotic minorities and give them even more power
Agreed to a point but successful protests have to start somewhere as a minority. Womens rights, Greenham Common (for those too young to know - against Britain becoming a nuclear missile launching site for the USA and thus a prime target). Better that people can protest than to be beaten to death for daring to go out in the street (Yemen).
As I have said before, I think the Times Square and St Pauls protests against bankers having too much power to ruin whole countries have merit. Sadly the execution of the protests leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe people (drones) don't care anymore and are happy to go back to their creature comforts and 100 channels of pap each night. Maybe they are right and that is the new order..............
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http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm (http://dunya.milliyet.com.tr/abd-de-protestocular-ulke-genelinde-yuruyuste/dunya/dunyadetay/18.11.2011/1464421/default.htm)
please look in the picture and tell me there is democracy ;D :D
ps: I forgot to say this is USA.. :D
"There have been multiple incidents of assault, drug dealing and drug use, rape and attempted rape, according to conversations with numerous protesters. And the problem, they say, is getting worse.
In the past several weeks, the cluster of tents at the west end of the park -- the farthest section from the bustle of working groups and activity near Broadway -- has grown increasingly dangerous, many say. The sanitation team has reported finding needles in tents, and reports of crack and crystal meth use have surfaced. But the most serious concern most protesters say, is the risk of assault, especially for women and at night."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/01/occupy-wall-street-security_n_1069597.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/01/occupy-wall-street-security_n_1069597.html)
(The Huffington Post is a left-leaning newspaper)
This has nothing to with democracy/lack of democracy. The vast majority of people wish to go about their business without hindrance, as is their democratic right. Same situation outside St Paul's. These people have had their say..now it's time to [them] move on. ;)
Nick , seems like you are missing the main subject , why those poeple are there.. because they are jobless..and protesting the govt..
and if someone finds drugs, meths or injectors in those tents , blame the capitalism, not them..
as I told in another thread, if you ban cigarette smoking in public and you know its dangerous why you dont stop producing it in the first place...
apart from that, the media news about those people reminded me that the news about Gaddafi after his death.. nearly every day one woman come into media and says "I was innocent he raped me.. "
;D ;D >:( rather idiots , think 7 billion on earth is stupid and they are the only clever people..
then why the hell , all those west presidents, ministers was posing to tvs with him , kissing him in front of everyone.. the intelligencies didnt tell them ? ::)
sorry but I'm enough full with biased media lies and cant eat more >:(
plus
can you tell me the reason why there are (in US) only 2 rightwing parties which are nearly a mirror copy of each other ? is this democracy ;D
besides can you tell me why a big powerful nation that is said to have freedom even cant print its own money ?
and why on earth the presidents**************** censored as it will create trouble for forum!
ps: and do you know how many Americans go to bed with an empty stomach every night ?
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This has nothing to with democracy/lack of democracy.
and why on earth the presidents**************** censored as it will create trouble for forum!
Democracy like this above. We are just talking about that but don't understand it's real meaning...I'm sure nobody want to hurt here neither anybody nor the OOF! Cem, what have you written...??? Think again and rewrite in an other form. Very interesting what you say! :y I would wonder whether if rating agencies why weren't able to forecast the crisis. Maybe there is no really diference among banks and agencies? Right and left hand of the same group?