Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: ianu on 17 December 2011, 19:12:43
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Hi all,
Wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction here please. Long story short - car running fine, suddenly starts misfiring, Engine management light flashing for a short period then stayed on permanently. Managed to get car back home and read the codes as follows:
10 4 3 10 - which I believe is - P0430 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)
10 3 10 10 - which I believe is - P0300 Random/multiple cylinder misfire detected
10 3 10 4 - which I believe is - P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
Checked under the bonnet - everything looks connected where it should be. No obvious leaks ??
Is the Cat code likely to be an effect or a cause of the other 2 ?
Whare do I start ??
Cheers
IAn.
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0420 standard pre-cat issue, 0304, if V6 check n/s plugwells for oil and visually check coilpack, if 4-pot, again plugwells and #4 on coilpack
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What Rob said. Bonus will be if theres no oil or water in plug wells. Oil will be failed cam covers. Water will be leaking scuttle or windscreen to scuttle seal come adrift.
Hopefully just needs new plugs, or the old ones have come loose. Look for soot around the plug base.
If needed...
Plugs and seals from GM
Genuine bosch coil pacs can be had for £70 odd plus vat.
Scuttle seal will push back on with scuttle removed
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Its 2.6 iirc
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it would be 246 bank. Bugger.
if you are stuck with it, I'm in all day tomorrow
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it would be 246 bank. Bugger.
if you are stuck with it, I'm in all day tomorrow
:o What, no church? ::)
:P.....;).....;D
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Thanks Gents - so it's looking like possible cam cover seals / plug / oil issue ?? Where does the scuttle seal fit into the equation Chris.
Yes it's 2.6 - I take it the coil packs are a single component for each bank -yes ?
So do I need to check the n/s bank first.
TB - thanks I might just take you up on that - I'll have a go at it first thing and have a look through the guides on here tonight.
Cheers
Ian.
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0420 standard pre-cat issue,
:-[ oh dear - whats the prognosis/damage for this then ? :-X Is this likely to be affecting my fuel consumption ? It hasn't dropped a lot (1 or 2 mpg) - I'd put this down to the temperature drop in the last two weeks
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0420 standard pre-cat issue,
:-[ oh dear - whats the prognosis/damage for this then ? :-X Is this likely to be affecting my fuel consumption ? It hasn't dropped a lot (1 or 2 mpg) - I'd put this down to the temperature drop in the last two weeks
All revealed here, http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90613.0 common problem on 2.6/3.2.
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0420 standard pre-cat issue,
:-[ oh dear - whats the prognosis/damage for this then ? :-X Is this likely to be affecting my fuel consumption ? It hasn't dropped a lot (1 or 2 mpg) - I'd put this down to the temperature drop in the last two weeks
All revealed here, http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90613.0 common problem on 2.6/3.2.
Excellent.........
:y :y :y :y :y :y ;D ;D ;D ;D :) :) :) :) ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( . And the alternative is errr what ?
BTW - spot on - I love this Forum:
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90545.0 :-* Thanks Markjay
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0420 .... several options ranging from cheap and easy to expensive and hard .....
1. Buy a code reader/resetter (£60-£80 for a stand alone OBDII one .. £20 for a laptop based ELM327 one), when the code appears reset it until the next time.
2. Don't buy supermarket fuel. Use a proper decent quality fuel.. seems to solve the problem quickly... 2 - 3 tankfuls and the light goes out .
3. Move the O2 sensor from betwen the cats to behind the main cat .. involves drilling and welding bits in the exhaust system.
My preferred option is 1. I get the warning twice a year ... once just after filling up on arrival in France - supermarket fuel (LPG in my case) I reset it and it doesn't recur until ..... 2nd time just after refilling back in UK. IMHO it is the difference in LPG (French stuff has more butane than UK stuff) that the system "notices" and flags as a fault. Others who run on petrol have noticed similar when changing between supermarket and quality fuels ... again it would "appear" that the system spots a "difference" and calls it a fault ... :(
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0420 .... several options ranging from cheap and easy to expensive and hard .....
1. Buy a code reader/resetter (£60-£80 for a stand alone OBDII one .. £20 for a laptop based ELM327 one), when the code appears reset it until the next time.
2. Don't buy supermarket fuel. Use a proper decent quality fuel.. seems to solve the problem quickly... 2 - 3 tankfuls and the light goes out .
3. Move the O2 sensor from betwen the cats to behind the main cat .. involves drilling and welding bits in the exhaust system.
My preferred option is 1. I get the warning twice a year ... once just after filling up on arrival in France - supermarket fuel (LPG in my case) I reset it and it doesn't recur until ..... 2nd time just after refilling back in UK. IMHO it is the difference in LPG (French stuff has more butane than UK stuff) that the system "notices" and flags as a fault. Others who run on petrol have noticed similar when changing between supermarket and quality fuels ... again it would "appear" that the system spots a "difference" and calls it a fault ... :(
Thanks Entwood - as per my last post - I love you guys... :-*
It might just be coincidental - but I normally fuel with BP Ultimate religously (it happens to be convenient on my daily commute & I get double Nectar points). This week a slight change in journeys and I stopped by and filled up with Tesco's a couple of times so I'll definitely keep a check on this over the next week when I revert back to the Ultimate and see if the code disappears too - terrific.
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as said above first check point ignition components.. (oil in plug well means the coil may also be damaged)
less probability faulty injectors (but you could hear engine knock)
assuming no cut or chasis (grounding) on injector/ingintion sockets/cables..
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Thanks Gents - so it's looking like possible cam cover seals / plug / oil issue ?? Where does the scuttle seal fit into the equation Chris.
Yes it's 2.6 - I take it the coil packs are a single component for each bank -yes ?
So do I need to check the n/s bank first.
TB - thanks I might just take you up on that - I'll have a go at it first thing and have a look through the guides on here tonight.
Cheers
Ian.
Yes, thing is it's a case of dismantling the passenger side 3gang coil PAC under the cable tray, examine coil PAC and wells to see what you find. If it's a loose plug re tighten and re fit everything. If it's oil or water damage, then you need go get whatever parts etc. Then re fit. So if you have a spare car...
What's the service history on the plugs? Are they due a change anyway?
How many miles on the car? Coil pac start to fail from 80k ish iirc, TB will advise on that.
Wind screen to scuttle seal has come away from the windscreen on the last 4 3.2's I have seen. This means any rain runs down the windscreen and straight into the engine bay. Plug end of Coil pacs are directly underneath the seal and was the cause of 246 cp failure on my current car. Wells full of rust residue, and the coil pac seal had been damaged by the previous gorilla that changed the plugs letting water in. Full vx service history.
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Also you'll need this to get the coil pac out. Also shows rust residue and gorilla damage. http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90670.0
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...and the pre cat codes can be ignored. No real issue bar the eml on. My old car was borderline,
thrash it and the light went out drive sedately and the light came on. ;D
Could easily be a fuel issue too. But under lying cause is tired worn out pre cats. They have a hard life. But the main cats are still doing trier job so emissions no worries.
But knowing you, that orange light will be very irritating. ;)
Dont let TB scratch those beautifully polished wings btw. ;)
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Thanks Chris - yes I'd already had a look at this guide - very helpfull too.
TB - if needed would you happen to have a spare coil pack to get me going if it goes that route ?.
Windscreen seal hmmm hada bit of a rigorous jet wash yesterday afternoon ....hmmm
Cheers
Ian,
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I have my old one I think. Its failing, but not failed (or at least wasn't). Funniliy enough, cyl 4 like yours. If yours (or mine) is really toast, you can borrow the one out of TBE over Xmas to keep you going (assuming you don't have cam cover gasket leak or water leak - dont want to ruin it ;D) until you can get one.
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Thanks Gents - so it's looking like possible cam cover seals / plug / oil issue ?? Where does the scuttle seal fit into the equation Chris.
Yes it's 2.6 - I take it the coil packs are a single component for each bank -yes ?
So do I need to check the n/s bank first.
TB - thanks I might just take you up on that - I'll have a go at it first thing and have a look through the guides on here tonight.
Cheers
Ian.
Yes, thing is it's a case of dismantling the passenger side 3gang coil PAC under the cable tray, examine coil PAC and wells to see what you find. If it's a loose plug re tighten and re fit everything. If it's oil or water damage, then you need go get whatever parts etc. Then re fit. So if you have a spare car...
What's the service history on the plugs? Are they due a change anyway?
How many miles on the car? Coil pac start to fail from 80k ish iirc, TB will advise on that.
Wind screen to scuttle seal has come away from the windscreen on the last 4 3.2's I have seen. This means any rain runs down the windscreen and straight into the engine bay. Plug end of Coil pacs are directly underneath the seal and was the cause of 246 cp failure on my current car. Wells full of rust residue, and the coil pac seal had been damaged by the previous gorilla that changed the plugs letting water in. Full vx service history.
Thanks Chris,
Plugs have done 50k since last change. As far as I can tell (and no reason to doubt all the service history I have) - the Coil pacs are original at 140k.
Tks TB - just about to have a look at it now - you're welcome to watch :P ..think it's roast for tea ;D
Cheers
Ian.
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LOL, thats the 2nd roast dinner I've been invited to by OOFers today ;D ;D ;D
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Ok. Given the mileage. I would be fitting new plugs and coil pacs anyway. Have those ready when investigating if pos.
Cam cover seals will be rock hard by now, so may as well do them too before fitting new coil pacs. Check the scuttle with a hose first, see if it leaks water onto the engine. Grab hold of scuttle and see if it pulls away from the screen.
Good for another 140k then. :y
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Ok. Given the mileage. I would be fitting new plugs and coil pacs anyway. Have those ready when investigating if pos.
Cam cover seals will be rock hard by now, so may as well do them too before fitting new coil pacs. Check the scuttle with a hose first, see if it leaks water onto the engine. Grab hold of scuttle and see if it pulls away from the screen.
Good for another 140k then. :y
Part way through - the scuttle panel was a bit loose - a couple of the clips missing under the rubber trim that covers them up :(.
Cam cover gaskets were done about 50k ago from looking back at the mountain of receipts I have.
Whats the fix for the scuttle if it's leaking - silicone ?
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I'd be changing the plugs as a matter of course as well. Though at 50k, its likely they may have come loose.
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Ok. Given the mileage. I would be fitting new plugs and coil pacs anyway. Have those ready when investigating if pos.
Cam cover seals will be rock hard by now, so may as well do them too before fitting new coil pacs. Check the scuttle with a hose first, see if it leaks water onto the engine. Grab hold of scuttle and see if it pulls away from the screen.
Good for another 140k then. :y
Part way through - the scuttle panel was a bit loose - a couple of the clips missing under the rubber trim that covers them up :(.
Cam cover gaskets were done about 50k ago from looking back at the mountain of receipts I have.
Whats the fix for the scuttle if it's leaking - silicone ?
I thought the leak was the windscreen rubber to windscreen :-\
Remove scuttle, then see if rubber is loose. If so, push it back on to glass (it grips quite hard)
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Oh ok. See what's in the plug wells then.
Couple of clips missing won't matter too much. Main thing is the seal is still firmly clipped to the bottom edge of windscreen. Although water can also get in via the join in the two scuttle halfs.
See what's in the wells next I guess. :)
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Ok.
front plug well (nearest radiator) - lot of white/brown dust, middle - bit of oil (not swimming though) and damp. rear - damp and signs of rust around base of coil pack.
Will get a photo up asap.
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P0304 is middle one - cyl 4
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If there's oil anywhere in there, you have failed cam cover gaskets. Which will only get worse. So could well ruin and new coil PAC or plugs about to be fitted.
*might* be worth torquing down the cam cover bolts to 8nm to see if any are loose, but overwhelming odds are the gaskets are likely to leak further ruining any new parts. Really needs new gaskets IMO.
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Understood Chris - just a question of juggling logistics now to make that happen and be able to get it to the garage that can do it for me.
I suppose I can get it back together and coax it to the local garage - probabaly not a lot of point replacing with a temp spare good one either then ?
Photos' below.
The pack:
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9222.jpg)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9214.jpg)
This is a bit odd ?
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9221.jpg)
The famous #4
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9220.jpg)
The one at the back (best I could get)
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9219.jpg)
All in a row:
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9215.jpg)
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Yep, oil and water residue. cp's fubar, plus somebody has been in there before and fitted a dodgy boot by the looks.
New seels and o rings.
Now cp's
New plugs
Then make sure that scuttle doesn't leak...
If you get a chance have a look at the cp plug and wiring, see if anything a miss, just to be safe.
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Try and get as much crap and oil out as possible before removing plugs or it will fall into the bore.
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Do the cp's come with new boots Chris ?
Any idea why the front plug well is full of powdery brown dust ?
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Do the cp's come with new boots Chris ?
Any idea why the front plug well is full of powdery brown dust ?
Wondering if that plug may be a bit loose
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Do the cp's come with new boots Chris ?
Any idea why the front plug well is full of powdery brown dust ?
Wondering if that plug may be a bit loose
Sods law TB - no one said they were small diameter long reach thingummies :-X I don't have a plug spanner that'll fit these :-X :-X. Oh dear - looks like a trip to the tool shop :y :y
If it is loose - I can't tell by touch alone but the well was full of dust and took some hoovering and blowing to get it all out.
As advised TB, took the other side off and the story continues..... just uploading photos now. Stay tuned.
Chris - where did you get the Bosh replacement cp's I think I'll be needing 2...
Cheers
Ian.
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Hafruds are open 'til 4. Probably got some sale things going on :y
p.s. You should be able to tell if the plugs are loose as they'll rock slightly if you try and wiggle them with the end of a finger. They are either done up or not :'(
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Plug certainly didn't feel loose trying to rock it.... hey ho.
Ok to the Drivers side.
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9235.jpg)
Definitely water in the plug well - above the plug 'nut' shape bit that the spanner I don't have would fit onto. Water droplets around the cp for this plug too.
tricky to see here - but other plugs: Middle pretty dry to be honest nothing really to report. Front plug well - the timiest bit of oil round the base of the plug.
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9234.jpg)
Either way looks like this pack is toast too although maybe just hanging in there.
Windscreen scuttle leak:
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9226.jpg)
This was loose all the way along the bottom of the screen. I've cleaned and re-seated it so that it's pretty tight now.
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9227.jpg)
Slightly worried that the drivers side by the wiper spindle is slightly split and won't fit as tight as the rest of it - you can see where the water has run through onto the pipes in this picture
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9234.jpg)
By the way Chris - thanks for the excellent tip for lifting the cp's out using another bolt. It just so happens that these Saab 900 Exhaust manifold bolts happen to be an exact thread match too - what a breeze that was :y
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa344/ianu2/Omega/IMG_9229.jpg)
Finally - all cleaned up and back together while I work out the repair logistics. Started it up. no misfire :-X
Codes are now reading same as before except the misfire reported has moved from #4 to #5 - even though it's not misfiring. I'll assume that it's not happy with the general condition of the cp's and can't now make it's mind up.
Every day a school day - thanks everyone for their help - at least I know exactly what I'm up against.
Cheers
Ian.
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Yes cp's come with new boots complete.
Had similar powder in mine. Put it down to evaporated water residue.
If plugs loose you'll feel it when undoing them. There will also be black soot around the plug base.
Got mine from all parts in slough. Genuine bosch. 71 plus vat iirc. Tb may remember price.
01753 215080
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Yes cp's come with new boots complete.
Had similar powder in mine. Put it down to evaporated water residue.
If plugs loose you'll feel it when undoing them. There will also be black soot around the plug base.
Got mine from all parts in slough. Genuine bosch. 71 plus vat iirc. Tb may remember price.
01753 215080
Thanks Chris,
I notice there's one in Oxford and High Wycombe too so I've got a few choose from. I'll give them a call tomorrow.
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You'll need to ask for that price Btw. It was given to better an on line quote.
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You'll need to ask for that price Btw. It was given to better an on line quote.
Cheers Chris - I've just found an on line price of £75 so I've got something to barter with. Thanks for the tip though.
And every cloud - I see I've been promoted to an Intermediate member now - excellent :y :y