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[crazyjoetavola]

It is simply the fact that mankind is born greedy and, given the opportunity, will always do everything they can to feather their own nests.  The great philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588 -1679) stated this, and the fact that man will always be at war with other men due to this greed, which requires good central control by a supreme 'Leviathan' power.

That is exactly what all MP's require; strict, powerful central control to stop this expenses madness which reflects pure greed    

I would also add to my above post that this "greed of mankind" is not all negative, although at times it seems to be totally the case!

Without this natural drive for something better, man, and it is primarily man not women, we would now still be living in mud huts living a hand to mouth existence.   The evolutionary momentum and drive by man has ensured human progress has traveled forever upwards, with the ability to "stock up" using modern technology in farming, industrial and domestic techniques, and to give us 'leisure' time away from the continual hunt for food, and to have families when we want them, rather than an absolute necessity for future survival, to till the land and gather the harvest. 8-) 8-) 8-)

The negative is when the natural drive goes too far and corrupts, as in the case of the MP's and their expenses!!  

I would submit that irrespective of whatever man (the sex) thought, women have always pulled the levers - and that's not necessarily a bad thing mind you

I wouldn't argue with that Zulu  However, it is the male who has the real testosterone fed sex drive that powers the notion "we can, we will, and no matter what, do better to achieve more"

Yep take the point Ms Zoom but it's that drive, fed by the primeval essense, which has led us into the keek on so many occasions I fear that balance, due concern for others and the new ideal of getting as much for one's self, over the backs of others, is the thought uppermost in many modern minds

This has always been so throughout time, and sometimes has risen to state level with political power and territorial greed leading to wars, such as the Boer War, especially the First World War, then the Second World War, and the Vietnam War. Modern affluence, and maybe secularism, has certainly led to us believing this is a rotten self centred age, but many in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries thought the same, with workers, agricultural and later industrial, being exploited, and not forgetting such evils as the slave trade.

Our society today is actually well regulated, and gives most of us in the western world a comfortable existence.  At the moment though we have a problem with our Government (not a new phenomenon by any means) and an over liberalised system which creates perceived or actual injustice.  The Queen or future King could be the true politically neutral power that 'audits' our politicians, and holds them accountable.  We obviously do not want to return to the evils of an absolute monarchy, but we, the citizens, should fully use the advantages of our constitutional royalty.  Nothing though will ever be perfect, as history has proved!!

True but at what potential price? I think many will fall at the first hurdle when things go tits up - (do forgive my freedom Ms Zoom) precisely because we have been over-regulated, many would say spoon-fed and softened up

I would love for that to be the case but it assumes that the controlling influence would be benign and have due consideration for it's charges and that said charges, would have the wit to tear their attention away from Eastenders, Davina McCall or whatever else is occupying their collective time

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It is simply the fact that mankind is born greedy and, given the opportunity, will always do everything they can to feather their own nests.  The great philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588 -1679) stated this, and the fact that man will always be at war with other men due to this greed, which requires good central control by a supreme 'Leviathan' power.

That is exactly what all MP's require; strict, powerful central control to stop this expenses madness which reflects pure greed    

I would also add to my above post that this "greed of mankind" is not all negative, although at times it seems to be totally the case!

Without this natural drive for something better, man, and it is primarily man not women, we would now still be living in mud huts living a hand to mouth existence.   The evolutionary momentum and drive by man has ensured human progress has traveled forever upwards, with the ability to "stock up" using modern technology in farming, industrial and domestic techniques, and to give us 'leisure' time away from the continual hunt for food, and to have families when we want them, rather than an absolute necessity for future survival, to till the land and gather the harvest. 8-) 8-) 8-)

The negative is when the natural drive goes too far and corrupts, as in the case of the MP's and their expenses!!  

I would submit that irrespective of whatever man (the sex) thought, women have always pulled the levers - and that's not necessarily a bad thing mind you

I wouldn't argue with that Zulu  However, it is the male who has the real testosterone fed sex drive that powers the notion "we can, we will, and no matter what, do better to achieve more"

Yep take the point Ms Zoom but it's that drive, fed by the primeval essense, which has led us into the keek on so many occasions I fear that balance, due concern for others and the new ideal of getting as much for one's self, over the backs of others, is the thought uppermost in many modern minds

This has always been so throughout time, and sometimes has risen to state level with political power and territorial greed leading to wars, such as the Boer War, especially the First World War, then the Second World War, and the Vietnam War. Modern affluence, and maybe secularism, has certainly led to us believing this is a rotten self centred age, but many in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries thought the same, with workers, agricultural and later industrial, being exploited, and not forgetting such evils as the slave trade.

Our society today is actually well regulated, and gives most of us in the western world a comfortable existence.  At the moment though we have a problem with our Government (not a new phenomenon by any means) and an over liberalised system which creates perceived or actual injustice.  The Queen or future King could be the true politically neutral power that 'audits' our politicians, and holds them accountable.  We obviously do not want to return to the evils of an absolute monarchy, but we, the citizens, should fully use the advantages of our constitutional royalty.  Nothing though will ever be perfect, as history has proved!!

True but at what potential price? I think many will fall at the first hurdle when things go tits up - (do forgive my freedom Ms Zoom) precisely because we have been over-regulated, many would say spoon-fed and softened up

I would love for that to be the case but it assumes that the controlling influence would be benign and have due consideration for it's charges and that said charges, would have the wit to tear their attention away from Eastenders, Davina McCall or whatever else is occupying their collective time

In many ways that is what I believe.........but then you find out about what has been happening behind the closed doors of the banks, then the MP's expenses!!

I am a disciple of the economist philosopher F.A. Hayek who warned of over regulation and control by any government, along socialist involvement in personal freedoms by Westminster.  But all policies have come unstuck in their own ways, so where do we go from here? :-? :-?  Scrap capitalism and adhere to Marxist policies for a change?   Would that stop the greed of mankind?  I doubt it!!

Give me Plato's Republic or Hobbes Leviathan  8-) 8-) 8-)

[crazyjoetavola]

It is simply the fact that mankind is born greedy and, given the opportunity, will always do everything they can to feather their own nests.  The great philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588 -1679) stated this, and the fact that man will always be at war with other men due to this greed, which requires good central control by a supreme 'Leviathan' power.

That is exactly what all MP's require; strict, powerful central control to stop this expenses madness which reflects pure greed    

I would also add to my above post that this "greed of mankind" is not all negative, although at times it seems to be totally the case!

Without this natural drive for something better, man, and it is primarily man not women, we would now still be living in mud huts living a hand to mouth existence.   The evolutionary momentum and drive by man has ensured human progress has traveled forever upwards, with the ability to "stock up" using modern technology in farming, industrial and domestic techniques, and to give us 'leisure' time away from the continual hunt for food, and to have families when we want them, rather than an absolute necessity for future survival, to till the land and gather the harvest. 8-) 8-) 8-)

The negative is when the natural drive goes too far and corrupts, as in the case of the MP's and their expenses!!  

I would submit that irrespective of whatever man (the sex) thought, women have always pulled the levers - and that's not necessarily a bad thing mind you

I wouldn't argue with that Zulu  However, it is the male who has the real testosterone fed sex drive that powers the notion "we can, we will, and no matter what, do better to achieve more"

Yep take the point Ms Zoom but it's that drive, fed by the primeval essense, which has led us into the keek on so many occasions I fear that balance, due concern for others and the new ideal of getting as much for one's self, over the backs of others, is the thought uppermost in many modern minds

This has always been so throughout time, and sometimes has risen to state level with political power and territorial greed leading to wars, such as the Boer War, especially the First World War, then the Second World War, and the Vietnam War. Modern affluence, and maybe secularism, has certainly led to us believing this is a rotten self centred age, but many in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries thought the same, with workers, agricultural and later industrial, being exploited, and not forgetting such evils as the slave trade.

Our society today is actually well regulated, and gives most of us in the western world a comfortable existence.  At the moment though we have a problem with our Government (not a new phenomenon by any means) and an over liberalised system which creates perceived or actual injustice.  The Queen or future King could be the true politically neutral power that 'audits' our politicians, and holds them accountable.  We obviously do not want to return to the evils of an absolute monarchy, but we, the citizens, should fully use the advantages of our constitutional royalty.  Nothing though will ever be perfect, as history has proved!!

True but at what potential price? I think many will fall at the first hurdle when things go tits up - (do forgive my freedom Ms Zoom) precisely because we have been over-regulated, many would say spoon-fed and softened up

I would love for that to be the case but it assumes that the controlling influence would be benign and have due consideration for it's charges and that said charges, would have the wit to tear their attention away from Eastenders, Davina McCall or whatever else is occupying their collective time

In many ways that is what I believe.........but then you find out about what has been happening behind the closed doors of the banks, then the MP's expenses!!

I am a disciple of the economist philosopher F.A. Hayek who warned of over regulation and control by any government, along socialist involvement in personal freedoms by Westminster.  But all policies have come unstuck in their own ways, so where do we go from here? :-? :-?  Scrap capitalism and adhere to Marxist policies for a change?   Would that stop the greed of mankind?  I doubt it!!

Give me Plato's Republic or Hobbes Leviathan  8-) 8-) 8-)

Goddamnit Ms Zoom I'm going to have to dig the books out again   I do take your point however. That's why I think there is a day of reckoning in the not too distant future.  I hope that many of us will be up to the task of picking up the pieces

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It is simply the fact that mankind is born greedy and, given the opportunity, will always do everything they can to feather their own nests.  The great philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588 -1679) stated this, and the fact that man will always be at war with other men due to this greed, which requires good central control by a supreme 'Leviathan' power.

That is exactly what all MP's require; strict, powerful central control to stop this expenses madness which reflects pure greed    

I would also add to my above post that this "greed of mankind" is not all negative, although at times it seems to be totally the case!

Without this natural drive for something better, man, and it is primarily man not women, we would now still be living in mud huts living a hand to mouth existence.   The evolutionary momentum and drive by man has ensured human progress has traveled forever upwards, with the ability to "stock up" using modern technology in farming, industrial and domestic techniques, and to give us 'leisure' time away from the continual hunt for food, and to have families when we want them, rather than an absolute necessity for future survival, to till the land and gather the harvest. 8-) 8-) 8-)

The negative is when the natural drive goes too far and corrupts, as in the case of the MP's and their expenses!!  

I would submit that irrespective of whatever man (the sex) thought, women have always pulled the levers - and that's not necessarily a bad thing mind you

I wouldn't argue with that Zulu  However, it is the male who has the real testosterone fed sex drive that powers the notion "we can, we will, and no matter what, do better to achieve more"

Yep take the point Ms Zoom but it's that drive, fed by the primeval essense, which has led us into the keek on so many occasions I fear that balance, due concern for others and the new ideal of getting as much for one's self, over the backs of others, is the thought uppermost in many modern minds

This has always been so throughout time, and sometimes has risen to state level with political power and territorial greed leading to wars, such as the Boer War, especially the First World War, then the Second World War, and the Vietnam War. Modern affluence, and maybe secularism, has certainly led to us believing this is a rotten self centred age, but many in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries thought the same, with workers, agricultural and later industrial, being exploited, and not forgetting such evils as the slave trade.

Our society today is actually well regulated, and gives most of us in the western world a comfortable existence.  At the moment though we have a problem with our Government (not a new phenomenon by any means) and an over liberalised system which creates perceived or actual injustice.  The Queen or future King could be the true politically neutral power that 'audits' our politicians, and holds them accountable.  We obviously do not want to return to the evils of an absolute monarchy, but we, the citizens, should fully use the advantages of our constitutional royalty.  Nothing though will ever be perfect, as history has proved!!

True but at what potential price? I think many will fall at the first hurdle when things go tits up - (do forgive my freedom Ms Zoom) precisely because we have been over-regulated, many would say spoon-fed and softened up

I would love for that to be the case but it assumes that the controlling influence would be benign and have due consideration for it's charges and that said charges, would have the wit to tear their attention away from Eastenders, Davina McCall or whatever else is occupying their collective time

In many ways that is what I believe.........but then you find out about what has been happening behind the closed doors of the banks, then the MP's expenses!!

I am a disciple of the economist philosopher F.A. Hayek who warned of over regulation and control by any government, along socialist involvement in personal freedoms by Westminster.  But all policies have come unstuck in their own ways, so where do we go from here? :-? :-?  Scrap capitalism and adhere to Marxist policies for a change?   Would that stop the greed of mankind?  I doubt it!!

Give me Plato's Republic or Hobbes Leviathan  8-) 8-) 8-)

Goddamnit Ms Zoom I'm going to have to dig the books out again   I do take your point however. That's why I think there is a day of reckoning in the not too distant future.  I hope that many of us will be up to the task of picking up the pieces

   The one book I didn't quote was Hayek's (1944) The Road to Serfdom


Yes, you are right!  A reckoning is acoming!!

[crazyjoetavola]

It is simply the fact that mankind is born greedy and, given the opportunity, will always do everything they can to feather their own nests.  The great philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588 -1679) stated this, and the fact that man will always be at war with other men due to this greed, which requires good central control by a supreme 'Leviathan' power.

That is exactly what all MP's require; strict, powerful central control to stop this expenses madness which reflects pure greed    

I would also add to my above post that this "greed of mankind" is not all negative, although at times it seems to be totally the case!

Without this natural drive for something better, man, and it is primarily man not women, we would now still be living in mud huts living a hand to mouth existence.   The evolutionary momentum and drive by man has ensured human progress has traveled forever upwards, with the ability to "stock up" using modern technology in farming, industrial and domestic techniques, and to give us 'leisure' time away from the continual hunt for food, and to have families when we want them, rather than an absolute necessity for future survival, to till the land and gather the harvest. 8-) 8-) 8-)

The negative is when the natural drive goes too far and corrupts, as in the case of the MP's and their expenses!!  

I would submit that irrespective of whatever man (the sex) thought, women have always pulled the levers - and that's not necessarily a bad thing mind you

I wouldn't argue with that Zulu  However, it is the male who has the real testosterone fed sex drive that powers the notion "we can, we will, and no matter what, do better to achieve more"

Yep take the point Ms Zoom but it's that drive, fed by the primeval essense, which has led us into the keek on so many occasions I fear that balance, due concern for others and the new ideal of getting as much for one's self, over the backs of others, is the thought uppermost in many modern minds

This has always been so throughout time, and sometimes has risen to state level with political power and territorial greed leading to wars, such as the Boer War, especially the First World War, then the Second World War, and the Vietnam War. Modern affluence, and maybe secularism, has certainly led to us believing this is a rotten self centred age, but many in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries thought the same, with workers, agricultural and later industrial, being exploited, and not forgetting such evils as the slave trade.

Our society today is actually well regulated, and gives most of us in the western world a comfortable existence.  At the moment though we have a problem with our Government (not a new phenomenon by any means) and an over liberalised system which creates perceived or actual injustice.  The Queen or future King could be the true politically neutral power that 'audits' our politicians, and holds them accountable.  We obviously do not want to return to the evils of an absolute monarchy, but we, the citizens, should fully use the advantages of our constitutional royalty.  Nothing though will ever be perfect, as history has proved!!

True but at what potential price? I think many will fall at the first hurdle when things go tits up - (do forgive my freedom Ms Zoom) precisely because we have been over-regulated, many would say spoon-fed and softened up

I would love for that to be the case but it assumes that the controlling influence would be benign and have due consideration for it's charges and that said charges, would have the wit to tear their attention away from Eastenders, Davina McCall or whatever else is occupying their collective time

In many ways that is what I believe.........but then you find out about what has been happening behind the closed doors of the banks, then the MP's expenses!!

I am a disciple of the economist philosopher F.A. Hayek who warned of over regulation and control by any government, along socialist involvement in personal freedoms by Westminster.  But all policies have come unstuck in their own ways, so where do we go from here? :-? :-?  Scrap capitalism and adhere to Marxist policies for a change?   Would that stop the greed of mankind?  I doubt it!!

Give me Plato's Republic or Hobbes Leviathan  8-) 8-) 8-)

Goddamnit Ms Zoom I'm going to have to dig the books out again   I do take your point however. That's why I think there is a day of reckoning in the not too distant future.  I hope that many of us will be up to the task of picking up the pieces

   The one book I didn't quote was Hayek's (1944) The Road to Serfdom [/i]

Yes, you are right!  A reckoning is acoming!!

Thank you kindly maam