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Author Topic: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!  (Read 13160 times)

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Nick W

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #75 on: 18 February 2017, 21:19:59 »

Can anyone think of a purposely designed FWD competion car ? No, nor can I. There's a reason for that.  :)


You've not seen touring cars then? Or the various rally classes? Rallycross? Just like a '70s group4 Escort, there's little to no production parts in them.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #76 on: 18 February 2017, 23:38:09 »

Yep, the lmp regs allow them to generate much more aerodynamic downforce over the front axle so that's the one they drive. And it's mid engined iirc. I think the kers drives the front wheels too.

Then again, tractors win le mans...
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #77 on: 18 February 2017, 23:54:04 »

Can anyone think of a purposely designed FWD competion car ? No, nor can I. There's a reason for that.  :)


You've not seen touring cars then? Or the various rally classes? Rallycross? Just like a '70s group4 Escort, there's little to no production parts in them.

But they aren't purpose designed and built cars, they are highly modified production cars, or built to resemble a production model for marketing purposes.  Most touring cars are fwd, because the production cars they are loosely based on are too.The manufacturers spend money on them because they are mobile advertisements for what comes out of the factories. If it was purely about winning purely for its own sake, non of them would be fwd.
Most rally cars are 4wd afaik, although I haven't taken much notice of rallying for quite a while.
Similar with rallycross. When I did recovery at the big rallycross meets at Lydenn & Brands, in the early 90,s the cars were 4wd, ex group B rally cars - 6r4, RS200, 205 T16 etc.
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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #78 on: 19 February 2017, 00:18:08 »

Never seen a wwd Nascar racer... And when Ford stopped using a V8 down under, the world very nearly stopped with it :D
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anV6

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #79 on: 19 February 2017, 10:36:10 »

The accusation, "useless thread" or "useless discussion" gets tossed around a lot in these forums when a topic is not something the majority is interested in. But then the discussion of FWD vs RWD rages on.  ::)

There is no discussion really. FWD is inferior. This is not one of those things which is a matter of opinion. It's hard science.

People who normally defend FWD are basically divided in 3 categories. People who know nothing about cars and can't even tell if the car is being pulled or pushed. Or don't even know there is actually a difference. Then we have the people who are fans of car brands which make no RWD cars or at least none they can afford, so they have to wave the FWD flag, or feel like they do. What else could they do? And lastly, we have people who wrongly think RWD is less safe or dislikes that normally RWD cars are more expensive or some reason like that which leads them to buy a FWD. Then they feel the need to justify FWD but can't get to say the right thing or the truth which is something like "even though I know RWD is better, I bought a FWD, but for a personal reason". Because if they don't know they would fall under the first category.

But there is no debate really. If FWD would be better F1 would drive backwards! FWD is not better for speed or handling. Touring cars don't count as the point is to drive "stock" cars. Neither do "experiments". F1 is the top of motor racing. If they ever move away from RWD it will be to AWD and they have been experimenting with it. And before anybody says F1 is RWD because they are rear mid-engined, If FWD was any good they would pursue that instead of bothering with AWD. And if you really want to hang on the rear mid-engine excuse, look at Nascar and the several other FR set ups in racing.

If FWD would be any real advantage for traction as well, rally cars wouldn't have massively switched to AWD and Range Rovers would be FWD.

FWD is a compromise. There is no other way to look at it. This is what it always was. FWD is basically the loser of the car world. It's not as good for traction as AWD and not as good for handling as RWD. It does nothing great! This is what a compromise is.

As for not being able to tell the difference in the day to day, I can't understand how that can be. Not from anybody who likes and understands about cars anyway. I currently drive a FWD as a daily and I'm constantly reminded of it. Any time I come out of a roundabout or bend, get into a bend, basically all the time. Unless you are driving 15mph on a dry straight line, how can somebody not notice the difference?

As for safety, I still maintain RWD is safer, specially if you can actually drive. But as they say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I got on youtube to look for tests and I knew I would find something. I wanted to find something that wasn't track related. There are several tests showing such behaviors. But for those who never got to see any, or who never had the opportunity to track a FWD, RWD and AWD to see the difference or even drive them close to the limit, I will leave this here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYUWIcw8_xg

What I like about this test is that it is not even driving fast. It's something that can happen every day. The FWD defense front likes to use the argument that under normal conditions FWD is not inferior. It doesn't get less normal than this test. It can happen anytime. And I know Vicki said it's hard to tell the difference between FWD, RWD and AWD before you start reaching the car's limit. But I'm sure she is trying to see it from the perspective of most of her viewers as I doubt very much she can't easily tell. Sure if you don't know about cars it can be puzzling. But the thing is when it comes to safety, it normally means you HAVE reached the car's limits. And that happens in a split second.

The FWD vs RWD debate is not a Ford vs Chevy or Mac vs PC debate. The argument FWD is not inferior is like a "smoke is not bad for you" argument.
« Last Edit: 19 February 2017, 10:50:52 by anV6 »
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citroenguy

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #80 on: 19 February 2017, 11:04:43 »

I disagree. I think FWD and RWD are both good, and have their respective advantages and compromises. AWD is pretty much best of both worlds, if a little unnecessary for normal sensible driving.
I think all solutions are great, and they have their place in the automotive world.
« Last Edit: 19 February 2017, 11:06:16 by citroenguy »
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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #81 on: 19 February 2017, 11:15:08 »

A four wheel drive version of a rear wheel drive car becomes more limited in damp/wet conditions, especially on the twisties.

A four wheel drive version of a front wheel drive car become a much more formidable B Road car.

So in summary and referring to regular cars rather than SUVs

FWD is ideal for getting from A to B.
AWD/4x4 is better for dry B Road blasts, especially with a bit of power. Also useful in wintry condition with appropriate tyres.
RWD is clearly the preferred choice with no compromises.

For the record, I have owned both rear and four-wheel drive Sierras, both V6, various other rear wheel drive cars, predominantly Granadas and Omegas; Various front wheel drive cars from a Mk2 Polo and 106 through to a 405, Vectra Cs and randomly a Renault 25. Also a pair of Insignias, one Fwd, and one Awd.

The awd Insignia with the 160bhp Cdti lump gives the Sierra XR4x4 a good run for it's money, but the Sierra pips it because it's considerably lighter. But the same V6 with a manual box in a Mk2 Granada was a much better car to drive hard even if it wasn't quite as fast.
« Last Edit: 19 February 2017, 11:25:18 by Doctor Gollum »
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anV6

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #82 on: 19 February 2017, 11:28:04 »

I disagree. I think FWD and RWD are both good, and have their respective advantages and compromises. AWD is pretty much best of both worlds, if a little unnecessary for normal sensible driving.
I think all solutions are great, and they have their place in the automotive world.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion and to disagree. But you can't argue with facts. :y

FWD is only good to save money. It beats neither of the other systems in performance. That is a fact, regardless of your or my personal preferences. Disagreeing does not change facts.
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Migv6 le Frog Fan

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #83 on: 19 February 2017, 15:23:55 »

I doubt F1 are experimenting with AWD. It was tried and then banned many years ago. As were 6 wheeled cars.  ;)
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TheBoy

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #84 on: 19 February 2017, 16:03:49 »

Can anyone think of a purposely designed FWD car ? No, nor can I. Theres a reason for that.  :)

The Mini, BMC 1100, Citroën Traction Avant, Citroën DS,SAAB 92 and so on.....

There is one of these in the classic car sales near the office, keep meaning to have proper look at it. (When they are not looking)

It's a stunning looking car, would turn heads if released today.
Dad had the Safari (Estate) version of that for the first 10 years of my life. In vile green.

Good ideas on paper, but in usual French style, absolutely crap in reality. Such as a starting handle for when the French electrics inevitably stopped working - great idea in theory, but utterly shite when combined with Citroen's stupid suspension system, making it too low to turn said handle when the engine isn't running.


That said, as a family of 11, we toured Europe in that and a Fiat 850 Coupe Sport for several weeks.


He replaced it with another Citroen, a GSA Pallas, with the air cooled boxer engine. You had to remember to put in a grill cover when the weather got cold, else it'd never warm up.  Was always having new pistons fitted, kept blowing holes in them :o.  Also after about 2 years, kept dumping its suspension fluid from every orifice at regular intervals, which was inconvenient, as it shared the same fluid for the brakes.

He never had another Citroen, he said he learnt his lesson.  His remaining 2 cars were and Escort and a 318, much more sensible.
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TheBoy

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #85 on: 19 February 2017, 16:07:29 »

AWD and 4x4 designations are not the same thing...
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #86 on: 19 February 2017, 17:07:12 »

AWD and 4x4 designations are not the same thing...
Hence trying to differentiate them earlier ;)
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citroenguy

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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #87 on: 19 February 2017, 17:15:11 »


[/quote]
Dad had the Safari (Estate) version of that for the first 10 years of my life. In vile green.

Good ideas on paper, but in usual French style, absolutely crap in reality. Such as a starting handle for when the French electrics inevitably stopped working - great idea in theory, but utterly shite when combined with Citroen's stupid brilliant suspension system, making it too low to turn said handle when the engine isn't running.


That said, as a family of 11, we toured Europe in that and a Fiat 850 Coupe Sport for several weeks.


He replaced it with another Citroen, a GSA Pallas, with the air cooled boxer engine. You had to remember to put in a grill cover when the weather got cold, else it'd never warm up.  Was always having new pistons fitted, kept blowing holes in them :o.  Also after about 2 years, kept dumping its suspension fluid from every orifice at regular intervals, which was inconvenient, as it shared the same fluid for the brakes.

He never had another Citroen, he said he learnt his lesson.  His remaining 2 cars were and Escort and a 318, much more sensible.
[/quote]

I love the Citroën suspension, super comfy and no need to worry about broken springs and sagging shocks.. As for the reliability it got better with the years. My dad´s 07 C5 Break went 150k miles/240 kkm (until he stuffed it  :'() without ANY service/repairs to the suspension, none, zero... And it still rode better than many a new car  :)

British electrics weren't much better at the time.. British cars are still associated with "that guy Lucas who invented darkness" over here   :D 
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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #88 on: 19 February 2017, 18:10:10 »

I love the Citroën suspension, super comfy and no need to worry about broken springs and sagging shocks.. As for the reliability it got better with the years. My dad´s 07 C5 Break went 150k miles/240 kkm (until he stuffed it  :'() without ANY service/repairs to the suspension, none, zero... And it still rode better than many a new car  :)
In my (dad's) experience, it got worse with newer cars.

Its downsides were it was way, way, way to soft, making it handle poorly, and the "floating" experience induced travel sickness for rear seat passengers.

It upside was the ability to adjust ride height (but sadly not stiffness), and it made jacking easy, as the jack on the DS was effectively a big block of wood
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Re: Peugeot looking to buy Vauxhall and Opel!
« Reply #89 on: 19 February 2017, 22:47:14 »

I had a ride in a C6 as a taxi run into London, very, very smooth. I liked it  :y

I did look a bit at C6 V6 diesels, but sadly 2006+ era they had stupid £500 tax bands.  :(
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