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[crazyjoetavola]

Firstly it is an interesting news headline as it doesn't provide you with
the sample data
the sample period
total number of police vehicles sample taken from
doesn't consider forces have different policies as TB says

which are all necessary criteria when using statistics and interpreting them.

Consider this headline

100 % increase in burglaries in area, in the last year!!!

What this could mean - there has been 1 and it has increased to 2 or more worringly there was 20 and it has increased to 40. Both scenarios fit the headline though.

In relation to police driving,

Police officers are not exempt from road traffic legislation and this has to be adhered to unless specific exemptions are claimed under the road traffic act.
These broadly summarised are; speed exemptions, red traffic lights - to be treated as give ways, keep left and keep right sign - can be deviated from and the use of seat belts IF it were to hinder the vehicle for a policing purpose (and that doen't include getting lunch!).

Any use of the exemption has to be justifiable and the driver and possibly others are accountable for their use and application of it.

A court can also retrospectively remove the right for them to claim their exemptions under the road traffic act as previously described, if there is other evidence of driving which is either inconsiderate, careless or dangerous driving. Therefore, an officer in court for any of these offences and also claiming an exemption under legislation, can expect to also be prosecuted for the matter to which the exemption applied.

Like anyone, officers if caught, are dealt with, either informally or formally, no different to any other motorist. Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with. A person will only amend their behaviour if it is challenged or they receive a sanction.

If this debate/ discussion is to continue then applications to all 43 police services need to be made under the freedom of information act asking for

the number of police authority owned leased or hired vehicles in their fleet within the last tax year
the number of reported collisions that occured with breakdown of injury, non injury, fatal, vicinity (where a suspect is being pursued and crashes but the police vehicle does not collide)
the number of instances of complaints against officers contravening road traffic legislation
the number of those resolved informally
the number of those resolved through the judicial process


Only once we are in possession of the data are we in a position to comment, as to what the statistics mean and represent. No I am  not volunteering!!!!

Police officers like anybody else are human, they make mistakes or errors of judgement (too fast etc), and have to live with themselves and the consequences of them, very much like the latest road safety campaign suggests. Any accident occurring through work prosecution or pending prosecution must be declared to an individuals insurance company; as they ask the question 'have you been involved in any accidents in the last x years'; failure to declare is fraud. Mr Mondeo man has his insurance provided by his company, police officers have their own private policies to which they must declare any accidents either at work or in their own vehicle.

We all commit wrong doings every now and again, whether it be speeding, or dropping a piece of litter (throwing a fag end out of the car is littering) but it doesn't make the news unless it is very serious. There have been some interesting admissions and comments on here if you look back.

The police are in the public eye and have the support of them, this headline does nothing to help that support them.

How about publicising the heroic work of the police such as diving into raw sewage to recover a murder weapon, giving mouth to mouth to someone unknown to the officer, no of course not, these aren't news worthy headlines.

Notice you only get the good news stories when there is no bad news.

 :-?

Thank you 3.2

[crazyjoetavola]

OK BUT you have to consider ........

How many cars are there on the roads at one time?
How many miles do they cover in just one day?
How often are they having to drive at speed?

You also have to consider that everytime a police car (or any emergency services vehicle for that matter) is involved in an accident it is front page news if not nationally but locally.

Apart from the arsehole who acted like an idiot and knocked the girl down personally I think they do a tremendous job and having seen the training they have to go through be assured if they were not so well trained there would be one hell of a lot more!

Thank you Gareth

[HolyCount]

Statistics cannot be relied upon to paint an accurate picture. For example, a very high percentage of pedestrians are run down on pedestrian crossings --- does that make the crossings more dangerous than anywhere else on the road  No -- it's just that many more use the crossings in the first place!!!!!

I would also add that, yes the police drivers ( on the whole) are better trained and / or experienced .... but the highway is FULL of other idiots who are basically accidents waiting to happen .... emergency vehicles are often where they aren't expected to be and how other drivers react is instrumental in whether there is an accident or not.

[Cybertrucker]

10-15 years ago I would have said that the traffic police were the best trained drivers in the world.  As a former Special Constable I have had the privilege of spending time on attachment to the Traffic Division and being the observer in traffic cars (Senators) on the way to shouts, and I'm sure those guys (and the ladies) can see round corners and can see into the future, because their driving was absolutely fantastic. (At the time I was heavily involved in advanced driver training as an IAM observer, so I had some idea what I was looking at.)  I also have to say that I spent considerable time with ordinary coppers as well, mostly in Escorts and Maestros, and I certainly wouldn't have lent my car to some of them, because they were dreadful.  Unfortunately as well as being awful drivers they thought they were in an episode of Starsky and Hutch, so I've had some terrifying experiences in police cars.

Since then I understand that things have changed.  The Traffic Divisions have gone, for a start (replaced by those nasty little yellow boxes, but don't get me started on them!).  The five-week basic course, to qualify as a panda driver, has I gather been replaced by a series of one-hour sessions carried out over a few weeks at your local police station, so the standard there is going to be even lower than before, and the training for the high-speed pursuit drivers has also been severely diluted.  Couple this with what appears, now I'm back in Civvy Street, to be a much more aggressive attitude on the part of at least some police drivers, and it's easy to see how that could lead to more accidents.

Yes they have a difficult job to do - I've been with them and seen them doing it - but some of them seem to regard themselves as above the law.  Unfortunately some of them seem to think they're above the laws of physics as well, but whether you're a copper or a civilian your tyres have only got so much grip on the road...

[crazyjoetavola]

Statistics cannot be relied upon to paint an accurate picture. For example, a very high percentage of pedestrians are run down on pedestrian crossings --- does that make the crossings more dangerous than anywhere else on the road  No -- it's just that many more use the crossings in the first place!!!!!

I would also add that, yes the police drivers ( on the whole) are better trained and / or experienced .... but the highway is FULL of other idiots who are basically accidents waiting to happen .... emergency vehicles are often where they aren't expected to be and how other drivers react is instrumental in whether there is an accident or not.

The voice of great wisdom and balance for which, on bended knee, I thank you HC

[largecol]

To be fair guys, all excellent points, and all are valid. As i said previously, i`m fully behind ALL emergency services, in respects to the hard - sometimes dirty, stressful work they do to keep us safe. I suppose its the same as any profession, the minority get the majority a bad name through their actions.
Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with.
Indeed i did report an unmarked Skoda RS racing a full-liveried Volvo (twice between 2 roundabouts on a dual carriageway - i gave full details of time, location and (since they came past twice i had time) both registrations, that incident occurred over 6 months ago. Never had any feedback since . . . . .  

[Chris_H]

To be fair guys, all excellent points, and all are valid. As i said previously, i`m fully behind ALL emergency services, in respects to the hard - sometimes dirty, stressful work they do to keep us safe. I suppose its the same as any profession, the minority get the majority a bad name through their actions.
Largecol, you obviously saw a police officer carrying out an illegal manoeuvre - did you take the trouble to report them? If not, then you only have yourself to take issue with.
Indeed i did report an unmarked Skoda RS racing a full-liveried Volvo (twice between 2 roundabouts on a dual carriageway - i gave full details of time, location and (since they came past twice i had time) both registrations, that incident occurred over 6 months ago. Never had any feedback since . . . . .  

They used to do some pursuit training on the public roads.  Is that still the case does anyone know?

[3.2omegaestate]

10-15 years ago I would have said that the traffic police were the best trained drivers in the world.  As a former Special Constable I have had the privilege of spending time on attachment to the Traffic Division and being the observer in traffic cars (Senators) on the way to shouts, and I'm sure those guys (and the ladies) can see round corners and can see into the future, because their driving was absolutely fantastic. (At the time I was heavily involved in advanced driver training as an IAM observer, so I had some idea what I was looking at.)  I also have to say that I spent considerable time with ordinary coppers as well, mostly in Escorts and Maestros, and I certainly wouldn't have lent my car to some of them, because they were dreadful.  Unfortunately as well as being awful drivers they thought they were in an episode of Starsky and Hutch, so I've had some terrifying experiences in police cars.

Since then I understand that things have changed.  The Traffic Divisions have gone, for a start (replaced by those nasty little yellow boxes, but don't get me started on them!).  The five-week basic course, to qualify as a panda driver, has I gather been replaced by a series of one-hour sessions carried out over a few weeks at your local police station, so the standard there is going to be even lower than before, and the training for the high-speed pursuit drivers has also been severely diluted.  Couple this with what appears, now I'm back in Civvy Street, to be a much more aggressive attitude on the part of at least some police drivers, and it's easy to see how that could lead to more accidents.

Yes they have a difficult job to do - I've been with them and seen them doing it - but some of them seem to regard themselves as above the law.  Unfortunately some of them seem to think they're above the laws of physics as well, but whether you're a copper or a civilian your tyres have only got so much grip on the road...

I dont think that is the case for all forces, some I believe had have their standard traning increased but with greater restrictions imposed on drivers as well. Certainly our local force still has a traffic "rebranded to roads policing dept", the driver policy is also available publicy - see here

http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/pub-policiesandprocedures-driver.pdf

I can't get the pursuits policy since I would imagine it talks about police tactics and therefore exemptions are available under the freedom of information act. They don't want the 'baddies' knowing all their tactics I suppose.

 

[Andy B]

.....
 but some of them seem to regard themselves as above the law.   ........

          

[tmx]

you can see all of thames valleys antics on Sky 1 most evenings programs called Road Wars

[3.2omegaestate]

you can see all of thames valleys antics on Sky 1 most evenings programs called Road Wars

Such a sweeping generalisation!!!!!!!!

  

[SJKOO01]

Only my view.

This kind of news gets your attention, and we all think what the hell is going on.

Yes the policeman that killed the girl really deserves to lose his license for life. But that is just a very small minority of the whole picture.
Statistics are a very dangerous thing to quote in my view, as they can be manipulated to fit what you want.

How many Newspapers are actually 'Newspapers' these days, with all the supplements in them, there more like magazines.

I feel its all about selling newspapers these days, not the actual fact of the 'news' par say. And there are a few out there that will knock something one day, yet praise them the next.

What about mobile phones ?.
Moms and dads will complain about drivers racing down their roads, and their worried for their kids safety, yet their also the same people using their mobile phones when their driving their kids to school, beggars belief, not only they risking their own kids lives, but risking others lives to - Where's the newspapers for that ?.

We have to put this into perspective with regards to the police.
If they don't pursue someone, they're in the wrong, if they do, they're in the wrong. It's a topic that will always cause passions to run high.

If it's a matter of life and death, reason to use higher than normal speeds, if there's a valid reason then maybe YES.
If someone's been burgled half an hour ago, the criminals vanished, and they can't get there for the next 20mins, then NO !.

The driving attitude of 'all' on the roads today needs changing, maybe then the roads would be safer.

Nuff said by me anyhow.

M

[maria]

OK BUT you have to consider ........

How many cars are there on the roads at one time?
How many miles do they cover in just one day?
How often are they having to drive at speed?

You also have to consider that everytime a police car (or any emergency services vehicle for that matter) is involved in an accident it is front page news if not nationally but locally.

Apart from the arsehole who acted like an idiot and knocked the girl down personally I think they do a tremendous job and having seen the training they have to go through be assured if they were not so well trained there would be one hell of a lot more!

Well said Gareth and I fully agree with you, The police do a fantastic Job  

[crazyjoetavola]

OK BUT you have to consider ........

How many cars are there on the roads at one time?
How many miles do they cover in just one day?
How often are they having to drive at speed?

You also have to consider that everytime a police car (or any emergency services vehicle for that matter) is involved in an accident it is front page news if not nationally but locally.

Apart from the arsehole who acted like an idiot and knocked the girl down personally I think they do a tremendous job and having seen the training they have to go through be assured if they were not so well trained there would be one hell of a lot more!

Well said Gareth and I fully agree with you, The police do a fantastic Job  

Well said yourself Maria, thank you

[theowletman]

It seems that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The officer on the street can't seem to win. The amount of vehicles, miles covered and time spent on the road means that some shunts will occur. It is the same for every large fleet. I totally agree that the non traffic officers are not as well trained, they don't need to be. Unfortunately plod is trying to do the job with one hand tied behind their back, I won't mention Health & Safety etc. The sentences imposed are a joke and are more to do with cost and prison space than justice. Traffic car numbers are being reduced, cameras are used to replace traffic cars, cameras can't spot drunk drivers, and have you ever heard of a case of tailgating ( my pet hate ) being brought using fixed camera evidence ?
Having said all that, there is no excuse for poor driving by people who should know better, up here a " Panda " driver has just been done, and rightly so, for parking on zig - zags whilst going to Greggs for a sandwich. Expensive sandwich.