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[CaptainZok]

If they do go maybe it will be the kick up the arse the country needs to go back to generating wealth from manufacturing rather than shuffling figures on a spreadsheet.

[albitz]

you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.

[CaptainZok]

you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.

Even the longest journey starts with one step.

[albitz]

Absolutely, although we dont want the treasury losing about 20% of its revenue in the meantime.

[Banjax]

i'm not passing judgement on the whole drugs/hookers use - fairplay to them, but its part of the whole high flying/high pressure/massive bonus/masters of the universe schtick - they're the ones more likely to break off at the drop of a hat, the more sober, settled, family types are more likely to stay - so obviously not all HSBC employees indulge, but the culture is palpably there 

please dont make me quote the Daily Mail 

[Plomien]

i'm not passing judgement on the whole drugs/hookers use - fairplay to them, but its part of the whole high flying/high pressure/massive bonus/masters of the universe schtick - they're the ones more likely to break off at the drop of a hat, the more sober, settled, family types are more likely to stay - so obviously not all HSBC employees indulge, but the culture is palpably there 

please dont make me quote the Daily Mail 

Same as in almost any other job

[Varche]

Maybe we could replace their loss with a home spun version of Mondragon. The chief execs can't earn more than approx six times the wage of the lowliest paid worker. They wouldn't have spare cash for drugs etc! Successful business and it includes banking. Doubt the model would work in Britain somehow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

[markfree]

Call them what you want, but if you dont recognise the fact that the countries economy is extrememly dependant on the revenue they generate, then you have your head immersed in a very large bucket of sand.
It shouldnt be that way, but it is and it will take a long time to change it.
Be careful what you wish for.

So why did we as tax payers have to bail them out  :question

[aaronjb]

you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.

I don't think you can do it for tens if not hundreds of years - until all the other manufacturing countries become as wealthy and expensive as ours is.

Because, really, who here wants to go and weld steel together for £3.50 a day? Because that's what they'll pay (probably more than!) someone in India or China. Can you compete? Do you want to? Wouldn't you rather retrain for a job that is required and needed in this country to support it's current economy?

[aaronjb]

Call them what you want, but if you dont recognise the fact that the countries economy is extrememly dependant on the revenue they generate, then you have your head immersed in a very large bucket of sand.
It shouldnt be that way, but it is and it will take a long time to change it.
Be careful what you wish for.

So why did we as tax payers have to bail them out  :question

Because some stuff happened (in a very short space of time) that meant they were all on the verge of bankruptcy.

Now, if we'd led them all go bust (which, incidentally, means the gov't would be bailing everyone out anyway to the tune of £50k a piece or less) the country would have followed swiftly after.

Do you want the whole country to be bankrupt (like Iceland)? We'd probably suddenly find that we can't import food, fuel, electricity..

Welcome to the stone age, everyone!

[Nickbat]

you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.

I don't think you can do it for tens if not hundreds of years - until all the other manufacturing countries become as wealthy and expensive as ours is.

Because, really, who here wants to go and weld steel together for £3.50 a day? Because that's what they'll pay (probably more than!) someone in India or China. Can you compete? Do you want to? Wouldn't you rather retrain for a job that is required and needed in this country to support it's current economy?

You make some very vaild points, Aaron. Of course, we'd all like to see a revival in manufacturing but, as you point out, we simply can't compete with overseas suppliers. Indeed, those who bring up the miners strike seem to forget that much coal was starting to be imported from Poland at much cheaper prices...the writing was on the wall, IMHO.

It seems to me that the future for manufacturing lies in niche markets. For example, we have a thriving motor sports industry, with many F1 and indy cars being made here in the UK. For niche manufaturing we need to provide quality, quality and more quality. We cannot compete on price.

Interstingly, the Germans have managed to keep quite a good deal of their manufacturing base because they produce quality goods (or, at least, they are perceived to produce quality goods before we start an argument!). Think Audi, BMW, Kärcher, and many kitchen unit manufacturers such as Poggenpohl. If we can produce very high quality and innovative goods without concentrating too much on price, we could see a moderate revival. We can't look back and expect to see a new British Leyland rising from the ashes. It was rubbish then and it would be rubbish now. 

Just my thoughts.

[aaronjb]

Yes.. god no, please no more Austin Allegros and Montegos! 

[miked]

I earn a 'performance' related bonus.  I expect to receive a reasonable bonus if I perform well but in proportion.

Experienced engineering resource is now becoming hard to find (everyone is heading for the banking industry  )

If I make seriously flawed engineering judgements, that cost my company large sums of money, I would expect to receive no bonus.  If I made real howlers, I might expect to loose my job.

The banking industry have made some real howlers.

If we don't pay their 'performance' related bonus packages, the 'talent' will go elsewhere :-?.

Our European friends are all making things.  Manufacturing washing machines, cookers, televisions, boilers, furniture, cars, industrial transformers (there is a five year waiting list!), steam turbines, nuclear power stations.....

We used to be world leaders in all of these categories..

We then moved to the finance industry.........

[Nickbat]

I earn a 'performance' related bonus.  I expect to receive a reasonable bonus if I perform well but in proportion.

Experienced engineering resource is now becoming hard to find (everyone is heading for the banking industry  )

If I make seriously flawed engineering judgements, that cost my company large sums of money, I would expect to receive no bonus.  If I made real howlers, I might expect to loose my job.

The banking industry have made some real howlers.

If we don't pay their 'performance' related bonus packages, the 'talent' will go elsewhere :-?.

Our European friends are all making things.  Manufacturing washing machines, cookers, televisions, boilers, furniture, cars, industrial transformers (there is a five year waiting list!), steam turbines, nuclear power stations.....

We used to be world leaders in all of these categories..

We then moved to the finance industry.........

Fair comment, Mike, though I would add that the work ethic in the UK was seriously undermined by the unions in the 1970s with people like Red Robbo who constantly wanted more money without productivity increases. I think that countries like Germany were not held back by the industrial relations problems we had then and forged ahead. The trend towards the financial industry(which has served the UK well financially) was not a conscious decision, but rather driven by a collapsing manufacturing base. It was made worse, in my opinion, by a snobbery within the educational system at the time which deemed that anyone wanting to use their hands and actually build something was mentally retarded.  Hence the rush for degrees in Politics, Philosophy & Economics et al, which were so fashionable at the time. Some may say that snobbery continues to this day. 

[sotmh]

Many valid points have been raised relating to this issue.  Being a free market society, all businesses big or small  make whatever decision which they believe would be in the best interest of their owners, which is the share holders in this case. 

The issue is because it is a "foreign institution" and  therefore possibly relocating causes constination.  Don't forget every major company which sets up in a foreign country does so if there are financial incentives, and this is considered over what value you would bring to the local economy in the way of employment and other benefits.

Quite rightly it's been said that England were world leaders in various categories for manufacturing .  I also agree with miked response.

But there were additional factors I believe, where choices were made by the next generation not wanting to work in industries where their parents work for little and nothing with possibly just ill health in repayment .  Parents also agreed in this as they also did not want their little johnny/mary to follow them.  London has always been  seen as the place for someone to make their fortune (enter stage right Dick Whittington).

With the other countries providing cheaper labour obviously business would take advantage of this and therefore decided to locate there ,although in recent years this as been offset, only by a small degree, with some manufacturing companies setting up business here as they still saw there is a ready workforforce with a set of ready engineering skills.

UK decided to focus on the financial sector as they saw more money could be made in this, even to the point of wanting to be the centre for the Eurobean banks location. This is where specialism comes into it's own.  I would say whatever government it was at the time,  decided that was what the uk was good at as the Ciy of London had a long history of finance and trade and did so throughout the world and so therefore it was that other countries were left to manufacturing.   England still do have some manufacturing companies, mainly small family run concerns, but it is no way a manufacturing powerhouse.

I do not mean to digress so back to the HSBC having its roots in Asia. As the asiatic region, which is quite geographically substantial, I believe its decison to relocate, whenever that is, is more strategic than just the corparation tax issue and red tape.  They would find it far more easier to take advantage of the economic growth of those various economies as Hong Kong is idealy strategically placed.