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[albitz]

Heres the reality check though, just because you have a contract dated x stating this is what you get, does not mean it cant be changed (been there, done that, bought the T-shirt)

And they will change them

We have a few options (plus others)

1) Change the pensions
2) Increase taxes for all
3) Reduce the spending on public sector to meet pension outputs.
4) Increase retirement age further

Either way, there WILL be a bitter pill to swallow (note, I am affected by this due to er-indoors)

I personally think that the lib dems will sh!t their pants long before such draconian measures are in place (they'd have to do something or they will be unelectable for the next 50 years).

Don't get me wrong.....I know we are in the doo-doo and that harsh measures are inevitable. It's the politics of envy I object to. Every security guard, shop assistant, taxi driver etc. thinks that public sector should be hammered, all because they haven't got a decent pension. Tough titty.

Nothing whatsoever to do with envy.I dont have an envious bone in my body.I do have a very well developed sense of fair play though, and the current arrangements on pay and pensions for many public sector employees is absolutely crazy when put into the bigger picture of all the circumstances in the country.They can to some degree blame their unions, because under Labour they were allowed to build a big powerful empire - 750,000 non jobs = 750,000 extra members. It has to bite them on the arse now.There is no way no how that the country can afford to employ them all, pay them the salaries which have risen dramatically in the last 15  years,allow them to retire earlier than everyone else, and pay them much bigger pensions than everyone else.The figures cannot be made to add up.
I keep asking the same old question - wheres the money going to come from to pay for all this ? :-/

[Marks DTM Calib]

Heres the reality check though, just because you have a contract dated x stating this is what you get, does not mean it cant be changed (been there, done that, bought the T-shirt)

And they will change them

We have a few options (plus others)

1) Change the pensions
2) Increase taxes for all
3) Reduce the spending on public sector to meet pension outputs.
4) Increase retirement age further

Either way, there WILL be a bitter pill to swallow (note, I am affected by this due to er-indoors)

I personally think that the lib dems will sh!t their pants long before such draconian measures are in place (they'd have to do something or they will be unelectable for the next 50 years).

Don't get me wrong.....I know we are in the doo-doo and that harsh measures are inevitable. It's the politics of envy I object to. Every security guard, shop assistant, taxi driver etc. thinks that public sector should be hammered, all because they haven't got a decent pension. Tough titty.

Quite the contary, WE are ALL living beyond our means with respect to OUR countries finances.

WE have a public sector we cant afford.

WE have a public sector which has some benefits which are very generous and outdated.

WE are all currently suffering due to the economic climate and hardship measures being handed out (with I suspect worse to come).

THE fundamental issue is that if you work out the percentage paid by both the authority and the employee and run it through a calculator based on a standard pension fund....you would get considerably less than is contractualy guaranteed.

I have no issue with the state contributing a theoretical decent percentage, I do have an issue with it being based on salaries rather than the countries economic state and financial contributions.  (If that make sense)

[albitz]

Makes perfect sense. In fact to argue any other point of view, can only be arguing from emotion or self interest - which is no basis for a point of view.

[STMO123]

Heres the reality check though, just because you have a contract dated x stating this is what you get, does not mean it cant be changed (been there, done that, bought the T-shirt)

And they will change them

We have a few options (plus others)

1) Change the pensions
2) Increase taxes for all
3) Reduce the spending on public sector to meet pension outputs.
4) Increase retirement age further

Either way, there WILL be a bitter pill to swallow (note, I am affected by this due to er-indoors)

I personally think that the lib dems will sh!t their pants long before such draconian measures are in place (they'd have to do something or they will be unelectable for the next 50 years).

Don't get me wrong.....I know we are in the doo-doo and that harsh measures are inevitable. It's the politics of envy I object to. Every security guard, shop assistant, taxi driver etc. thinks that public sector should be hammered, all because they haven't got a decent pension. Tough titty.

Quite the contary, WE are ALL living beyond our means with respect to OUR countries finances.

WE have a public sector we cant afford.

WE have a public sector which has some benefits which are very generous and outdated.

WE are all currently suffering due to the economic climate and hardship measures being handed out (with I suspect worse to come).

THE fundamental issue is that if you work out the percentage paid by both the authority and the employee and run it through a calculator based on a standard pension fund....you would get considerably less than is contractualy guaranteed.

I have no issue with the state contributing a theoretical decent percentage, I do have an issue with it being based on salaries rather than the countries economic state and financial contributions.  (If that make sense)

Your arguement makes perfect sense, Mark. But from the point of view of the people affected they are going to have to suffer the pain for something that the banking sector caused. They may feel a bit better about it if the people who caused the crisis payed their share.

You never know...a few of the banks are looking shaky.....

[2boxerdogs]

 >:(Why should i not be able to sleep ?I signed a contract & kept to it &  so have my employers, that is all i want from them, and they get my commitment back in return.

[albitz]

Because your happy about the fact that I may be paying more into your pension than I am into my own.To me, that is unvblievably selfish. Your employer shouldnt have made that contract with you.They had no moral right to do so, as they had no means of ensuring it could be fulfilled.In fact it was always bordering on the impossible that it could ever be fulfilled.
Your employer is employed by the country and its greater respnosibility is (or should be ) to the country.
The country cannot possibly afford to meet the terms of your contract, therefore the employer has a (greater ) duty to void it.
Its sad for the people involved, but it was always going to happen.The banking crisis has just meant that it has to happen sooner than it otherwise might have done.
Unfortunately, all other sectors of society, bankers included (in fact they had it first so weve all forgotten) have had to take the pain. Its inevitable that the same has to happen to the public sector. There is no realistic alternative.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Contracts get changed all the time in all walks, thats a fact of modern life......and one that will be seen by most people.

Is it equaly fair that teaching assistants have 7 weeks paid deducted from thier salary as they are no longer allowed the holidays teachers enjoy. This involves a change of contract and is happening.

As for the bankers arguement, reality is that its the governments that have been the route cause of the issues as they have over spent during good times running up stupid debts with the last lot reducing (which for some stupid reason I voted for once!) unemployment by creating public sector jobs.

[albitz]

Heres the reality check though, just because you have a contract dated x stating this is what you get, does not mean it cant be changed (been there, done that, bought the T-shirt)

And they will change them

We have a few options (plus others)

1) Change the pensions
2) Increase taxes for all
3) Reduce the spending on public sector to meet pension outputs.
4) Increase retirement age further

Either way, there WILL be a bitter pill to swallow (note, I am affected by this due to er-indoors)

I personally think that the lib dems will sh!t their pants long before such draconian measures are in place (they'd have to do something or they will be unelectable for the next 50 years).

Don't get me wrong.....I know we are in the doo-doo and that harsh measures are inevitable. It's the politics of envy I object to. Every security guard, shop assistant, taxi driver etc. thinks that public sector should be hammered, all because they haven't got a decent pension. Tough titty.

Quite the contary, WE are ALL living beyond our means with respect to OUR countries finances.

WE have a public sector we cant afford.

WE have a public sector which has some benefits which are very generous and outdated.

WE are all currently suffering due to the economic climate and hardship measures being handed out (with I suspect worse to come).

THE fundamental issue is that if you work out the percentage paid by both the authority and the employee and run it through a calculator based on a standard pension fund....you would get considerably less than is contractualy guaranteed.

I have no issue with the state contributing a theoretical decent percentage, I do have an issue with it being based on salaries rather than the countries economic state and financial contributions.  (If that make sense)

Your arguement makes perfect sense, Mark. But from the point of view of the people affected they are going to have to suffer the pain for something that the banking sector caused. They may feel a bit better about it if the people who caused the crisis payed their share.

You never know...a few of the banks are looking shaky.....

It would have happened anyway Steve. That just brought things forward. The banking sector has taken a huge amount of pain ( not the Fred the shreds of this worls obviously) in terms of  many thousands of lost jobs, greatly reduced profits, almost total collapse in share prices and very large tax rises for those still working there.They took the pain first (despite the headlines) then the rest of the private sector, now its going to have to be the public sector. No way round it Im afraid.

[2boxerdogs]

 ;DJust like i said SOUR GRAPES.

[albitz]

Not in the slightest. Just cold hard logic and reason.
Tell me please, where will the money come from for ever and a day to carry on employing the same number of public servants and paying them under the same terms and conditions they are cureently employed under ?

[Marks DTM Calib]

;DJust like i said SOUR GRAPES.

Lol, just wait, your contractual change will come....like it or not!

No sour grapes here, just a reality check for some

[TheBoy]

The public sector employees need to understand that the current system is unaffordable.

And even for the lowest jobs, represents a far better pension than is available elsewhere, by some considerable margin.

The country is in a double dip recession, its just that it takes 6 months for the official figures to catch up. Every CEO and MD in the land knows it.  If, as is looking likely, Greece defaults, we are probably looking at at least 5yrs of zero/negative growth.

With the public service's £150bn annual overspend, and a deficit of over £1tr, we will soon lose our top credit rating, struggle, like Greece, to service the loans, and then, believe me Mr Public Sector, you will truely understand whan pain is - the current cuts will be nothing in comparison.

The current situation is utterly, completely unsustainable.

Virtually every single private firm have closed any DB pensions, and only offer DC pensions. Those people that remain in DB pensions, due to being in the scheme before it closed, have found they are now putting considerably more in for the same benefit.


So, private sector employees have to think hard, and decide what they want to do - go DC, or pay enough into the scheme to make it work (think in the region of 15-20% additional contributions).


Additionally, remember, the public service is supposed to serve the tax paying public, not drain them dry.

[albitz]

The proposed strikes are political, hoping to damage the non labour govt. It would be nice if the union memebrs saw through it and realised that they are being used as pawns in a game and refused to co-operate .
Would also be nice to see the union bosses hauled to court and have their assets sequestrated.

Greece will default and the Euro will almost certainly implode in the near future. It will bring serious pain, even for the UK, for quite some time, although it will imo be of great benifit to the UK in the long term.

[TheBoy]

;DJust like i said SOUR GRAPES.

'fraid not, old fruit.

It WILL happen. There are NO options.  There are a million and one ways to kick you out of the current scheme. I have that T-Shirt myself

[2boxerdogs]

 :yLike i said earlier think ahead & plan your future , which  was instilled into me back in my youth, different back then  live within your means was another piece of advice i took to heart. Only now do i realise how important that was i could buy a brand new car tomorrow if i wanted but do i really need it ? A lot of people got themselves in to debt because it became too easy  me i look after what i have and do not envy anyone else because they have a newer car, bigger house or better pension scheme & no my lump sum(tax free!!) & pension is all guaranteed too.