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[tunnie]

I think what ever garage your taking it too, you need to take a another facelift auto down there and get them to compare the 2, and then that proves there is something wrong with yours

[Idris]

As you well know, that is not normal!

Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.

I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....

As Tb says that isnt normal.....any chance of taking it to another dealer to show them  :-/

Before I took it back last time I took it to a MOT centre, chap said at first "Vauxhall brakes are always long travel and soggy" but when I got him to sit in it and press the brake pedal, after 5 seconds or so he looked up and said "I see what you mean - you've got brake creep". As I understand it, and as one might expect, any MOT test of brakes includes not just pressing the brake pedal briefly, but also keeping it pressed for 10 or 20 seconds to check that it does stop going down.

I told the dealers this, then they changed the rear disc pads (!!!) and gave it back to me saying there is nothing wrong! Next step will probably need to be an independant specialist report - or perhaps just a "Fail" note from a MOT garage

Idris

[Idris]

I think what ever garage your taking it too, you need to take a another facelift auto down there and get them to compare the 2, and then that proves there is something wrong with yours

As it happened, last time they had another Omega in for service - and that had the same fault symptoms - though rate at which pedal goes down is not as fast as mine!

Over 48 years of drving and 20+ cars, I have several total failures of brakes - never in dangerous circumstances, mostly getting in in the morning and finding pedal goes straight to floor after lfluid leaked out overnight (single circuit Ford Consuls and Zodiac Mk2 and have had similar symptons to present ones on other cars, always recognised as a fault and fixed.

No knowledge of brake fluid having been changed, but much of it presumably was when the master cylinder was changed.

Old contaminated fluid or with air in can of course make for long travel and soggy feel, or problems due to heat when braking from high speed, but not the current problem I would have thought.

Incidentally, after pressing pedal right down, releasing and applying again very quickly gives shorter travel and marginally better feel - ie pedal "pumps up" proving in my view that fluid is leaking out and then being replaced by next pedal stroke

Idris

[Idris]

has the brake fluid been properly changed at service?

I'd be more concerned with air in the system. When working one of my project cars i accidently un-did the wrong nut, which let air into the system. I had to move the car to fix it, it created massive travel in the pedal, almost reaching the floor.

Idris I would flush the brake fluid, there is a guide in the maintaince section. I created the guide its very easy to do, just one or 2 bubbles of air could create your problems.

Where are you located Idris, I would be happy to help over the xmas break  

Many thanks and to all who have responded.

For reasons given in previous postings and because pedal travel does seem to be worse than when I bought it, I would not be that surprised to find air in the system - even after new master cylinder must have necessitated bleeding.

Car is in Hanworth, near top end of M3, dealer is near Heathrow but I am home in Hampshire, in principle until early Jan. Most unusually for me, this fault is under warranty, so while in normal circumstances I can and do work on my cars myself, I am disinclined to work on this one myself, that partly because the moment anyone else works on it - without the dealer's acceptance - the dealer might then use that as an exuse to slip out from under.

Thanks anyway, but no, at least for the moment.

Incidentally, I always prefer a short travel, firm pedal as I find it gives me much more confidence - and do not agree at all with a comment elsewhere on this group that long travel and soggy feel is better, to allow more gradual braking! That seems to me to similar to the old American "Sneeze factor"  excuse for useless steering with excessive play - "necessary so that the car does not turn if the driver sneezes" and the old (and for all I know current) Institute of Advance Motorists condemnation of heel and toe braking - because, they said, this allows drivers to brake more effectively and therefore encourages them to drive faster!

Idris

[Idris]

Not sure what the problem is Idris, BUT.... Brakes on Omegas are very reliable and give very little grief, apart from the odd 'warped' disks etc. Leaks of all sorts, master cylinder problems, caliper problem etc are quite rare and when occur are usually down to neglect e.g. brake fluid not replaced every 2 years etc. The point I am trying to make is that whatever is wrong with your Omega - and something obviously is - it is NOT typical and NOT common to Omegas.

Thanks, it has been so obvious to me since the first time I realised that the pedal continues to move down - -and that it was getting worse - that I simply cannot understand how anyone who knows anything about brakes could believe that this is normal! Pleased to have it confirmed that I am not going mad, and that no one has been mad enough to design brakes that do work like this!

Idris

[Idris]

If you pump the brake pedal a few times does this still happen?

If no there is probably air in the system.

Yes, as very recent post, once pedal has gone down a long way, lifting off and reapplying promptly "pumps" the brakes and travel is reduced - until it sinks down aagin. A few months ago the same thing started to happen on my 1939 Lagonda, in West London and I had to pump the pedal to be able to drive - cautiously - the few miles to my aunt's house. That turned out to be leaking seals in the master cylinder

Idris

[Idris]

Good grief! I know braking systems are quite complicated these days, but this should be meat and drink to any competent mechanic.
As a last resort, you could threaten to take your car to a decent independant garage, and bill network Q for any necessary work. Might not work, but that particular problems needs sorting pronto.

Beyond belief, isn't it? Options seem to include getting a MOT failure certificate, taking it to another main dealer for confirmation of fault - and then giving my dealer an ultimatum - fix it or replace it, because it is too potentially dangerous (given rate of deterioration) to drive any distance.

Or Trading Standards, because after all they are handing back a car which IS dangerous, and could be a real problem if driven by someone who knows nothing about cars

Idris

[Idris]

A sinking brake pedal is usually caused by fluid leaking past the master cylinder seals, back into the reservoir.
Air in the system would give a soft pedal on first press which hardens up as the air dissolves into the fluid, only to reform into bubbles over time so soft pedal returns after a few mins of non-use.
Soft or ballooning hoses cause the pedal to feel springy and can lead to excess travel but the pedal will not sink under constant pressure. ( sticking pads or new pads which havnt bedded in can feel the same)

Your master cylinder has been changed so the seals should be OK, has any mention been made of the ABS unit? This could cause similar symptoms if one of its internal valves is not seating properly.

I think I would refer this to Vauxhall rather than the dealer, they may send a technician to look at it and if he agrees that there is something wrong then he should advise the dealer on what to do.

All agreed with my previous experience - the particulary helpful point you make is that it might be in the ABS system. Although I know the basics of what ABS does I do not know in detail how the system works Except, you have reminded me, that the ABS system does indeed have valves (where - in a single central unit or at each wheel?) whch release pressure when a wheel starts to lock up.

If a valve IS leaking, and each valve is at the wheel rather than at the central ABS unit, would clamping up in turn each flexible hose to each wheel confirm at which wheel the fault is?


Similarly, does the fluid actually go in to the brake servo and perhaps leak there, or (as on much older cars) does the servo merely apply extra force mechanical to the pedal linkage?

Idris

Idris

[Idris]

I had this on my Staples to Naples banger car.

I replaced everything, and I mean everything, (sometimes twice!!), and spent an absolute fortune on bleeding brake fluid. (pardon the pun!!)

It passed an MOT like that and it drove to Italy over the Alps and back via the Nurburgring and is still in daily service with monthly visits to Knockhill to be royally thrashed around it and the brakes still pull the thing up in a fine fashion.

The last time I drove it, the creep was still there. Whatsmore, my MV6 is the same.

Oh dear! Your reply and the surprise that another Omega in for service shows the same symptoms suggests that this may be a more general problem - and I have just remembered that a one man band classic specialist who bled the brakes on my Lagonda refuse point blank even to try out the Omega because he had tried and failed to fix another one - and ended up heavily out of pocket"

However, knowing how much mine has deteriorated - in terms of how hard I need to press and how fast the pedal goes down - in less than  50 miles I would not now drive it to Dover, let alone Naples. I could see it now.

Prosecution" "Did you write several times to the suppying dealer saying that there was a problem with the brakes?"

Me  "Yes, several times"

Prosecution. "Yet you continued to drive it, and when the brakes failed you could not stop and ran down an entire bus queue?"

Me "Yes, that it correct."

Prosecution - "I rest my case."

Idris

[Idris]

Information just received from one of my email contacts -

Idris, sounds as though this may be an ABS pump, controller and modulator failure. The unit is all-in-on and was a common fault on Vectras. Go he fomore information.

http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?content=vauxhall_vectra_abs_pump_controller_modulator


There I read that this is a common fault on Vectras, and the symptoms listed include pedal going right to the floor (not literally I assume, but just to the end of the available master cylinder travel

Idris

[Big Rod]

I had this on my Staples to Naples banger car.

I replaced everything, and I mean everything, (sometimes twice!!), and spent an absolute fortune on bleeding brake fluid. (pardon the pun!!)

It passed an MOT like that and it drove to Italy over the Alps and back via the Nurburgring and is still in daily service with monthly visits to Knockhill to be royally thrashed around it and the brakes still pull the thing up in a fine fashion.

The last time I drove it, the creep was still there. Whatsmore, my MV6 is the same.

Oh dear! Your reply and the surprise that another Omega in for service shows the same symptoms suggests that this may be a more general problem - and I have just remembered that a one man band classic specialist who bled the brakes on my Lagonda refuse point blank even to try out the Omega because he had tried and failed to fix another one - and ended up heavily out of pocket"

However, knowing how much mine has deteriorated - in terms of how hard I need to press and how fast the pedal goes down - in less than  50 miles I would not now drive it to Dover, let alone Naples. I could see it now.

Prosecution" "Did you write several times to the suppying dealer saying that there was a problem with the brakes?"

Me  "Yes, several times"

Prosecution. "Yet you continued to drive it, and when the brakes failed you could not stop and ran down an entire bus queue?"

Me "Yes, that it correct."

Prosecution - "I rest my case."

Idris

The thing was, even though the 'creep' was evident, the brakes worked a treat and always pulled the car up admirably n a perfectly straight line, (even driving up and particularly down the Alps!!). I'd replaced all the major components of the system and so was satisfied that there were no leaks and that the majority of the components were working A1. As I say it's done probably about 5 or 6 thousand miles without a hitch since then!!

I did call a Vauxhall service department a couple of times, the first time they said it'd be a new ABS modulator, £1500 thanks!! (Chyeah right!!). The next time another bloke said that it's expected on Omegas!! (The MOT station concurred with him, 'cos I'd mentioned it to him when I took the car and he said it wasn't the first time he'd come across it. Like I say, my '02 plate MV6 does it too and that stops on it's nose when I need it to.

[sounds2k]

well, this may or may not be the problem ... but there IS a Vx TIS bulletin (E0000880) which says:

complaint:
"poor performance"
"brake pedal goes to the floor"

- this affects many cars, not just the omega ...

cause:
"air bubbles trapped within the ABS unit"

remedy:
"use TECH1 to operate the ABS unit pump whilst simultaneously bleeding the system with a pressure bleeder"

... has this been done already?

[STMO123]

This is turning into a very enlightening thread.

Its a pity there are no Vx technicians reading

[CaptainZok]

This is turning into a very enlightening thread.

Its a pity there are no Vx technicians reading

Do you know any who CAN read?  

[Idris]

The thing was, even though the 'creep' was evident, the brakes worked a treat and always pulled the car up admirably n a perfectly straight line, (even driving up and particularly down the Alps!!). I'd replaced all the major components of the system and so was satisfied that there were no leaks and that the majority of the components were working A1. As I say it's done probably about 5 or 6 thousand miles without a hitch since then!!

I did call a Vauxhall service department a couple of times, the first time they said it'd be a new ABS modulator, £1500 thanks!! (Chyeah right!!). The next time another bloke said that it's expected on Omegas!! (The MOT station concurred with him, 'cos I'd mentioned it to him when I took the car and he said it wasn't the first time he'd come across it. Like I say, my '02 plate MV6 does it too and that stops on it's nose when I need it to.
[/quote]

Thanks, understood, up to a point. In my case however the symptoms are getting rapidly worse. In less than 50 miles between visits, creep has gone from barely noticeable under high pressure to down to the floor while waiting for a red light to turn green! I will not continue to drive it a few more miles until I crash for lack of brakes.

In any case, no way on earth should anyone who knows anything about brakes say "its normal with XYZ" - its not normal, its a fault.

Idris