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Author Topic: Cats on the way out?  (Read 3784 times)

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TheBoy

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #15 on: 15 February 2008, 14:18:13 »

Have any 3.2 owners suffering this changed the pre cat (or post cat for that matter) lamdas?
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VXL V6

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #16 on: 15 February 2008, 14:51:13 »

The theory is that it's not the lambdas (these are the ones after the precat but before the main cat).

I think SP3.2 has replaced at least one of these before now but he definitely had codes for both banks at Donnington the other week.

The precat is only the size of a cricket ball so how GM ever thought it would work efficently with such a small surface area of material internally is beyond my limited intelligence..  ::)
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JiMbOb789

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #17 on: 15 February 2008, 14:55:30 »

May sound stupid but what are 'Cats.'
(I'm not the best at Mechanics) :-[
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #18 on: 15 February 2008, 14:56:13 »

Quote
Have any 3.2 owners suffering this changed the pre cat (or post cat for that matter) lamdas?

I'm sure someone did a while back.

However, Marks_DTM did some digging and reckoned it's a known problem that the pre-cat can't cope well with the exhaust flow rate of the 3.2 engine, so changing Lambda sensors is unlikely to cure it. :-/

Now I've got an ELM cable I want to find / write an application that will log live data so I can get a baseline for what these sensors should be doing, and see if anything changes when the problem occurs.

Do you know if there are any updates available for the engine ECU for the 3.2? Just wondering if they've issued a firmware update with wider limits on cat efficiency?

Then again, VX are probably making a fortune on all the cats and Tech 2 sessions. ::)

Kevin
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #19 on: 15 February 2008, 14:58:47 »

Other thing I forgot to mention.

In my experience these codes have always appeared in pairs, suggesting it's not the cat or lambda sensor condition (unless both equally fubar by chance) but perhaps the case that the cats are just inadequate.

Kevin
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TheBoy

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #20 on: 15 February 2008, 15:02:31 »

I have seen the codes individually, though possible different sequence of events.


The implecation of the code is that the pre (main) cats lamdas are getting a signal, but the post cat ones are getting a signal that is not plausible?  So if it was pre cats, should that effect pre (main) cat sensors, main cat, and post cat sensors?
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TheBoy

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #21 on: 15 February 2008, 15:03:06 »

Not disagreeing with the theories, I'm simply tryin gto understand :y
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VXL V6

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #22 on: 15 February 2008, 15:05:32 »

Quote
Quote
Have any 3.2 owners suffering this changed the pre cat (or post cat for that matter) lamdas?

I'm sure someone did a while back.

Yep SP3.2

Quote
However, Marks_DTM did some digging and reckoned it's a known problem that the pre-cat can't cope well with the exhaust flow rate of the 3.2 engine, so changing Lambda sensors is unlikely to cure it. :-/

Yep, believe that was the diagnosis, can't find the thread though.

Quote
Now I've got an ELM cable I want to find / write an application that will log live data so I can get a baseline for what these sensors should be doing, and see if anything changes when the problem occurs.

Yes planning to do the same with my scanner, perhaps we should do some comparisons Kevin?
 
Quote
Do you know if there are any updates available for the engine ECU for the 3.2? Just wondering if they've issued a firmware update with wider limits on cat efficiency?

Then again, VX are probably making a fortune on all the cats and Tech 2 sessions. ::)

Kevin

Well mine has the latest software level according to MDTM but this makes no difference.  :(

Believe the ECU in 3.2's is flashable if anyone fancies dabbling!!!  ::) ;D
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TheBoy

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #23 on: 15 February 2008, 15:08:19 »

Quote
Now I've got an ELM cable I want to find / write an application that will log live data so I can get a baseline for what these sensors should be doing, and see if anything changes when the problem occurs.

Yes planning to do the same with my scanner, perhaps we should do some comparisons Kevin?
[/quote]
Doesn't scantool.net do live data?
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VXL V6

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #24 on: 15 February 2008, 15:09:34 »

Quote
I have seen the codes individually, though possible different sequence of events.


The implecation of the code is that the pre (main) cats lamdas are getting a signal, but the post cat ones are getting a signal that is not plausible?  So if it was pre cats, should that effect pre (main) cat sensors, main cat, and post cat sensors?

As I understand it (and it's a rather limited knowledge), the ineffecient Pre Cat is not doing it's supposed job, so the first sensor will read higher readings than the 2nd sensor. presumably this is going to be worst at cold start times when the enrichment programme is running... ie. pre closed loop operation.


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VXL V6

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #25 on: 15 February 2008, 15:10:43 »

Quote
Quote
Now I've got an ELM cable I want to find / write an application that will log live data so I can get a baseline for what these sensors should be doing, and see if anything changes when the problem occurs.

Yes planning to do the same with my scanner, perhaps we should do some comparisons Kevin?
Doesn't scantool.net do live data?[/quote]

OpelScanner does, is Kevin's device scantool?
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TheBoy

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #26 on: 15 February 2008, 15:10:53 »

Quote
Quote
I have seen the codes individually, though possible different sequence of events.


The implecation of the code is that the pre (main) cats lamdas are getting a signal, but the post cat ones are getting a signal that is not plausible?  So if it was pre cats, should that effect pre (main) cat sensors, main cat, and post cat sensors?

As I understand it (and it's a rather limited knowledge), the ineffecient Pre Cat is not doing it's supposed job, so the first sensor will read higher readings than the 2nd sensor. presumably this is going to be worst at cold start times when the enrichment programme is running... ie. pre closed loop operation.


Ahhhh!  Me understandy now :y
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #27 on: 15 February 2008, 15:14:36 »

Quote
May sound stupid but what are 'Cats.'
(I'm not the best at Mechanics) :-[

Catalytic Converter..
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #28 on: 15 February 2008, 15:15:23 »

The way I understand it is that the pre-cat sensors control the mixture. If the mixture went out of the closed loop range or anything was suspicious about their operation they should raise a different code.

The post cat sensors are behind the 1st catalytic convertor (of 2) in the system (in the exhaust elbow just under the manifold)but before the main cats. These sensors will behave the same way as the pre-cat sensors until the 1st stage cat starts cleaning the exhaust gases, when they will just read rich (since the sensors work by measuring excess oxygen in the exhaust and the cat uses up the oxygen breaking down nasties).

I suspect the ECU is looking for the 1st stage cats to start working after a warmup period (maybe using a richer mixture, retarding ignition, delaying gear changes, etc. until they have woken up).

When mine has lit the emissions light it has been shortly after the engine has warmed up, although once that coincided with filling from empty from a petrol station I don't usually use.

I wonder if the 1st stage cats fail to work after the specified time sometimes, or allow some dirty gases through during high load, and such events are counted up and cause the light to come on if it happens too frequently?

I have seen the two codes in my ECU without the light having come on too, so it could be that the problem gets logged at one level and lights the light if it persists.

In any case, once the main second stage cats start working the exhaust emissions are fine but there is no monitoring of the second stage cat efficiency.

Kevin
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VXL V6

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Re: Cats on the way out?
« Reply #29 on: 15 February 2008, 15:21:24 »

Quote
When mine has lit the emissions light it has been shortly after the engine has warmed up, although once that coincided with filling from empty from a petrol station I don't usually use.

I wonder if the 1st stage cats fail to work after the specified time sometimes, or allow some dirty gases through during high load, and such events are counted up and cause the light to come on if it happens too frequently?

If it's shortly after the engine has warmed up then I guess we can assume that the Cat heaters have either gone off or are intermittent at this point.... So logging doesn't start until operating temp is achieved at a guess?

The code logging is definitley a 'count up' as it has a threshold set, until it hits this the lamp is not illuminated. so this is why I believe it's usually both banks registered.... simply because of the time frame before threshold is reached.

Simplest solution would be to raise the threshold to infinity  ::) But you'd still be logging the codes just never lighting the lamp!

« Last Edit: 15 February 2008, 15:22:26 by VXL_V6 »
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