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[Paul M]

.....
No, but to do it properly with full control you do! A big ass rubber band between the throttle and rear wheels is hardly going to be beneficial to controlling the amount of slip.

Torque converters == evil

Can we take a hint, (Any B's post) the auto over manual will never agree, mainly cos most manual drivers do not know how to use an auto box. No Daf's = no rubber bands.

Yes, first you curse and swear at it. Then drive it to your trustworthy garage, get it up on the ramp, remove the damn thing, throw it in the nearest skip, and fit a manual. Worked for my mate, and his Omega is 100x better for it

Most drivers have no desire to use an auto box. Those who are concerned with getting from A to B with as little effort and input as possible may be a different matter, but I wouldn't really call them "drivers".

[Vamps]

You have not driven my Galant Auto, 3rd gear there is no Omega Manual that will touch it.  Drifting is playing, I used to do that with early Fords, nothing new, it's A to B on country roads that counts. It's the driver not the gearbox.

[zippo]

horses for courses, when it comes down to it

[Paul M]

You have not driven my Galant Auto, 3rd gear there is no Omega Manual that will touch it.  Drifting is playing, I used to do that with early Fords, nothing new, it's A to B on country roads that counts. It's the driver not the gearbox.

Only because the Omega, even in 3.0 manual form, is underpowered -- something I've said many times on this forum.

The reality is, same car with a competent driver, the manual gearbox will allow you to be quicker on that country road simply because it gives more control so you can push harder. It's the car and the driver -- do you think Lewis Hamilton would win any grands prix if his car had a torque converter fitted while everyone else's was standard? The answer is no, because no matter how good the driver you can't change the slowing in reaction time between the throttle and rear wheels caused by torque converter slip, so you lose that fine adjustability that the best drivers are so good at doing within milliseconds.

I'm not saying you can't be fast in an auto -- put a big enough engine in with a decent driver and almost anything will be fast. But with a manual and all else equal it will be quicker round the twisties, and more importantly for road driving, a lot more fun

[Andy B]

You have not driven my Galant Auto, 3rd gear there is no Omega Manual that will touch it.  Drifting is playing, I used to do that with early Fords, nothing new, it's A to B on country roads that counts. It's the driver not the gearbox.

Only because the Omega, even in 3.0 manual form, is underpowered -- something I've said many times on this forum.

The reality is, same car with a competent driver, the manual gearbox will allow you to be quicker on that country road simply because it gives more control so you can push harder. It's the car and the driver -- do you think Lewis Hamilton would win any grands prix if his car had a torque converter fitted while everyone else's was standard? The answer is no, because no matter how good the driver you can't change the slowing in reaction time between the throttle and rear wheels caused by torque converter slip, so you lose that fine adjustability that the best drivers are so good at doing within milliseconds.

I'm not saying you can't be fast in an auto -- put a big enough engine in with a decent driver and almost anything will be fast. But with a manual and all else equal it will be quicker round the twisties, and more importantly for road driving, a lot more fun

You're beginning to get f***ing boring now Paul!    

[Paul M]

You have not driven my Galant Auto, 3rd gear there is no Omega Manual that will touch it.  Drifting is playing, I used to do that with early Fords, nothing new, it's A to B on country roads that counts. It's the driver not the gearbox.

Only because the Omega, even in 3.0 manual form, is underpowered -- something I've said many times on this forum.

The reality is, same car with a competent driver, the manual gearbox will allow you to be quicker on that country road simply because it gives more control so you can push harder. It's the car and the driver -- do you think Lewis Hamilton would win any grands prix if his car had a torque converter fitted while everyone else's was standard? The answer is no, because no matter how good the driver you can't change the slowing in reaction time between the throttle and rear wheels caused by torque converter slip, so you lose that fine adjustability that the best drivers are so good at doing within milliseconds.

I'm not saying you can't be fast in an auto -- put a big enough engine in with a decent driver and almost anything will be fast. But with a manual and all else equal it will be quicker round the twisties, and more importantly for road driving, a lot more fun

You're beginning to get f***ing boring now Paul!    

Nobody's forcing you to read the threads.... can't have much exciting going on if you keep coming back for more boring installments

[Andy B]

......... can't have much exciting going on if you keep coming back for more boring installments

There's not.  I'm at work, but you're boring everyone now! A lot of us have had our licence as long if not longer than you've been around, and even though we choose an auto can actually drive a manual if we so choose to - I drive a manual heap everyday to work & at no time do I feel in  more control etc driver involvement etc seeing down the road to change down by itself terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired (what have I missed out?) terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired than I would when I'm driving my Omega complete with  its auto g'box. But then I'm only repeating what loads of us have said in the past.

[Jay w]

.....
No, but to do it properly with full control you do! A big ass rubber band between the throttle and rear wheels is hardly going to be beneficial to controlling the amount of slip.

Torque converters == evil

Can we take a hint, (Any B's post) the auto over manual will never agree, mainly cos most manual drivers do not know how to use an auto box. No Daf's = no rubber bands.

Yes, first you curse and swear at it. Then drive it to your trustworthy garage, get it up on the ramp, remove the damn thing, throw it in the nearest skip, and fit a manual. Worked for my mate, and his Omega is 100x better for it

Most drivers have no desire to use an auto box. Those who are concerned with getting from A to B with as little effort and input as possible may be a different matter, but I wouldn't really call them "drivers".

I disagree with on both parts here

I have a need and a desire for an Auto, i drive high mileage and quite frequently get caught in traffic jams, i find that constantly faffing around with the clutch is a PITA and i have also found that i get more stressed as a result of the contant clutch action.
Auto offers a level of convienence that a manual cant do within this situation, to say that auto drivers are not 'drivers' is wrong, i consider myself to be a driver, i drive within the limits of the car and adapt to them as well, my Omega gets driven as hard as my Alfa GTV which is a manual. I can have as much control of both of them as well (not at the same time).

Both transmissions have their pros and cons, and i don't believe that something like SMG, DSG, SSG, sequential boxes will be the ideal compromise.

Lets not let this get to the point where we are digging trenches and trading heated views, having a passionate view on something is great, listening to a different point of view and acknowledging it allows everyone to see things from a different prospective  

 

[HerefordElite]

The reality is, same car with a competent driver, the manual gearbox will allow you to be quicker on that country road simply because it gives more control so you can push harder. It's the car and the driver -- do you think Lewis Hamilton would win any grands prix if his car had a torque converter fitted while everyone else's was standard? The answer is no, because no matter how good the driver you can't change the slowing in reaction time between the throttle and rear wheels caused by torque converter slip, so you lose that fine adjustability that the best drivers are so good at doing within milliseconds.

 
totaly agree - and to be honest you don't even to be that good a driver, you'd be amazed at how fast a human reactions are in simple driving situations - what Paul is trying to point out is if you put an unknown (ie Torque converter) into the equation you cannot have the same level of control it's simple

[amigov6]

I've read all this, a little late but i've read it none the less. As most of you will know i'm no stranger to putting my foot in it, i don't sit on the fence but will hold my hands up if proved wrong. I think the manual/auto debate will rage forever & is 95% down to personal taste.
  Personally i prefer dancing on 3 pedals for spirited driving & the buzz that goes with it. For pure self indulgence i can rag mine from a standstill & enjoy the wheelspin/back end skipping a little when changing from first to second in a straight line on a dry road & it's only a 2.5, so the 3.0 must be a scream.  
     I have however owned & enjoyed the advantages of a few autos over the years & understand how to use the box "manually"over relying on drive, sports mode & kickdown.
    I'm 44 yrs. young, learned to drive in a Ford Thames van with a 3 speed colunm change @ 10 yrs old, operated all sorts of plant/forklift, ex banger racer/ non contact oval racer & now drive an artic so i can see all sides to this argument.
     I still believe if the STIG took a manual then an auto MV6 for a lap each the manual would have the edge.
    However sometimes at the end of a long day or embarking on a long journey i wish i was in an auto. I like the characteristics, the jump off the line, dropping it down one or two if you need more than kickdown will give & 10 times easier in traffic.
    To sum up, when i bought my Mig i only had a grand to spend (no more finance!) & would still have bought it if it was auto & would love it as much as i do. Sorry to ramble on (Led Zep) but at least i'm not ranting!!!!!

[Jay w]

The reality is, same car with a competent driver, the manual gearbox will allow you to be quicker on that country road simply because it gives more control so you can push harder. It's the car and the driver -- do you think Lewis Hamilton would win any grands prix if his car had a torque converter fitted while everyone else's was standard? The answer is no, because no matter how good the driver you can't change the slowing in reaction time between the throttle and rear wheels caused by torque converter slip, so you lose that fine adjustability that the best drivers are so good at doing within milliseconds.

 
totaly agree - and to be honest you don't even to be that good a driver, you'd be amazed at how fast a human reactions are in simple driving situations - what Paul is trying to point out is if you put an unknown (ie Torque converter) into the equation you cannot have the same level of control it's simple

sorry i disagree........


A torque convertor is a known quantity, if you drive a car long enough you will get a feel for the way it acts/reacts to your input.
if i want to blat it through he lanes i will then start selecting gears rather than letting the car do it for me, if i want engine braking i can do the same or simpler still use the sport button.

Paul feel passionately about manuals i sit on the fence having owned enough of each to understand the benefits of both.

There isn't much that you can do with an manual that cant be done with an Auto, as Amigov6 has said a lot of this is personal taste, and Paul feels passionately for manuals.

  

[HerefordElite]

     I have however owned & enjoyed the advantages of a few autos over the years & understand how to use the box "manually"over relying on drive, sports mode & kickdown.
    

How do you use an AR35 "manually"? i know what you mean as i used to have a Mk2 Golf driver with an auto a few years ago and you really could drive it like a clutchless manual, but our gearbox when placed in 1,2 or 3 will only not change above that gear ie can still change down???

Ps i spend most of my driving day sat in traffic and i love my auto but every now and again i wish i'd hung on to find a manual MV6 :-/

[hotel21]

     I have however owned & enjoyed the advantages of a few autos over the years & understand how to use the box "manually"over relying on drive, sports mode & kickdown.
    

How do you use an AR35 "manually"? i know what you mean as i used to have a Mk2 Golf driver with an auto a few years ago and you really could drive it like a clutchless manual, but our gearbox when placed in 1,2 or 3 will only not change above that gear ie can still change down???

Ps i spend most of my driving day sat in traffic and i love my auto but every now and again i wish i'd hung on to find a manual MV6 :-/

The 1,2,3 D can be used like a gear lever as in a manual.  First gear hold, second gear hold, etc.....  It manually limits the mox to that gear, hence preventing change up mid bend and unsettling the car...

[HerefordElite]

     I have however owned & enjoyed the advantages of a few autos over the years & understand how to use the box "manually"over relying on drive, sports mode & kickdown.
    

How do you use an AR35 "manually"? i know what you mean as i used to have a Mk2 Golf driver with an auto a few years ago and you really could drive it like a clutchless manual, but our gearbox when placed in 1,2 or 3 will only not change above that gear ie can still change down???

Ps i spend most of my driving day sat in traffic and i love my auto but every now and again i wish i'd hung on to find a manual MV6 :-/

The 1,2,3 D can be used like a gear lever as in a manual.  First gear hold, second gear hold, etc.....  It manually limits the mox to that gear, hence preventing change up mid bend and unsettling the car...

must have been what i did on the 'dub, been a few years! - i think the mega has quite a large 'back throw' if you know what i mean it seems a bit cack handed or it could be me

cheers

[Vamps]

My daily car is a Citroen, I drive b roads to work and spend the day running round the town. Not sure what it is called but basically it is an Auto, but has no ‘park’ position. It has a ‘M’ position, put the 4 inch gear leaver into ‘M’ and use the paddle gears as a clutch less manual. I have tried this for some spirited driving but as my car, Citroen C4 Grande Picasso 7 str does not really do ‘spirited’ I just use Auto.
I first got into Auto’s doing part time Mini cab driving in Hertfordshire, a clutch is a pain when living in heavy traffic.