Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: ffcgary1 on 18 March 2012, 14:14:50
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Hi all,
i have a question for all you people more knowledgable in Audio Hi Fi.
I own a pair of Vintage Scott floor standing loudspeakers circa 1966-69.
They are 3 way speakers comprising a 10'' sub woofer, 4'' mid range and a 1'' tweeter.
6-8 ohm impedance, 7 watts min input.
The Cabinets are sealed units and access gained by removing the speakers.
The sub woofers have started to rot away and need to be replaced.
I would like to replace the crossovers with more modern items at the same time, Can any body reccomend what subs to buy and which crossovers are best.
Please be warned i have no electronic knowhow at all when it comes to audio etc.
OVER TO YOU GUYS/GIRLS
Gary.
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Get rid of them and buy some modern speakers. Technology has come on so far, it ain't worth bothering IMHO
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I had thought about that route,
but these are so well built and the quality is so good that i would like to rebuild these.
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there are many bass speaker units with different specs :-\
but for crossovers they are not that deep info..needs some practice (trial and error) and a good ear..
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/xover/xover.html (http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/xover/xover.html)
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/ (http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/Crossover/)
http://www.parts-express.com/resources/crossover-component-selection-guide.cfm (http://www.parts-express.com/resources/crossover-component-selection-guide.cfm)
I must note, I learned crossover building from a British origin small handbook.. they have many examples with different combinations .. you can try yourself.. :y
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I have a very good re-cone guy in the midlands, makes his own cones for some stuff, may be worth a shout?
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I know a guy in Essex that rebuilds them too.
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
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Cem, thanks for thos links all very intresting but wayyyyyy over my head, would look to buy manufactured units.
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
You could get someone to rebuild them for you. But unless they have a sentimental/resale value, I would just get a new set. Speakers have come on a long way. And something very simple like a Rega floorstander will provide very good music at a very reasonable price.
Remember you will have to get the speakers to someone somewhere in the country to re-build and then collect. It wont be that cheap.
Now if they were vintage Tannoys, then ......
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
You could get someone to rebuild them for you. But unless they have a sentimental/resale value, I would just get a new set. Speakers have come on a long way. And something very simple like a Rega floorstander will provide very good music at a very reasonable price.
Remember you will have to get the speakers to someone somewhere in the country to re-build and then collect. It wont be that cheap.
Now if they were vintage Tannoys, then ......
Tbh, they'd not cost much to ship, as you'll only need to send the drivers, and you'll find that the amount of air in the box is very relevant to the drivers in it, hence the size of them, tuning ports etc. If they make a noise you like then they are the right box for you, so you can go hunting or price the repair, depends on budget & preference
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
new model subs are definitely better..and also mids and tweeters.. but capacitors and inductors are same .. however, active speakers have different electronic components as they also have built in amplifiers..
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
new model subs are definitely better..and also mids and tweeters.. but capacitors and inductors are same .. however, active speakers have different electronic components as they also have built in amplifiers..
Better is an opinion, the're are newer (better?) cars than a mig, but we all like them......that's why we're here!
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
new model subs are definitely better..and also mids and tweeters.. but capacitors and inductors are same .. however, active speakers have different electronic components as they also have built in amplifiers..
Better is an opinion, the're are newer (better?) cars than a mig, but we all like them......that's why we're here!
::) ;D
I cant see any relevance.. sorry :y
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
new model subs are definitely better..and also mids and tweeters.. but capacitors and inductors are same .. however, active speakers have different electronic components as they also have built in amplifiers..
Better is an opinion, the're are newer (better?) cars than a mig, but we all like them......that's why we're here!
::) ;D
I cant see any relevance.. sorry :y
You drive a renault.....of course you can't, and so you should be sorry!!
:P :D
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Mark, hi mate long time no speaky, hope your well, i take it you mean get new speakers compleat cabs and all, or if i buy new componants do i match as close as poss size and depth. speakers are 10'' dia so depth will be the issue.
I would hope that a cross over could be bought that matches mine but as as said i know nothing about this project.
(BUT WILLING TO BE ENLIGHTNED)
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Thats a route that i did not know existed, thanks guys.
Would more modern subs be an improvment or is it all in the electronics that the improvments are to be found, as this is one area that i would look to improve at the same time.
new model subs are definitely better..and also mids and tweeters.. but capacitors and inductors are same .. however, active speakers have different electronic components as they also have built in amplifiers..
Better is an opinion, the're are newer (better?) cars than a mig, but we all like them......that's why we're here!
::) ;D
I cant see any relevance.. sorry :y
You drive a renault.....of course you can't, and so you should be sorry!!
:P :D
just check my signature ;D
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
::)
I have seen and examined many expensive speakers.. most of them even didnt have 2nd order crosovers..
any new model same size and impedance woofer will do the job imo.. but better bring the speaker to the shop and test with various models for better performance.. :y
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Mark, hi mate long time no speaky, hope your well, i take it you mean get new speakers compleat cabs and all, or if i buy new componants do i match as close as poss size and depth. speakers are 10'' dia so depth will be the issue.
I would hope that a cross over could be bought that matches mine but as as said i know nothing about this project.
(BUT WILLING TO BE ENLIGHTNED)
Hi, good to see you here again! :y
Way more complex than that as there are a number of the key factors whih should be matched and sadly we dont know what they are....
Such things as the equivalent Volume (Vas), free air resonance (Fs), total Q (Qts), electrical Q (Qes) etc etc.....all very important to make them work well within the cabinet.
Hence probably not possible unless somebody is making some retro drivers to fit.
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
::)
I have seen and examined many expensive speakers.. most of them even didnt have 2nd order crosovers..
any new model same size and impedance woofer will do the job imo.. but better bring the speaker to the shop and test with various models for better performance.. :y
Thats not a bad thing as every order added to the crossover brings in a distortion to the response........these days they often design the speakers to suit the cabinet (years ago it was a case of find some good drivers and design a cabinet to suit!) which means that have way more contol of speaker cut off.
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Here are some of the basics of speaker design....
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tutorial/SpeakerBox/
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
::)
I have seen and examined many expensive speakers.. most of them even didnt have 2nd order crosovers..
any new model same size and impedance woofer will do the job imo.. but better bring the speaker to the shop and test with various models for better performance.. :y
Thats not a bad thing as every order added to the crossover brings in a distortion to the response........these days they often design the speakers to suit the cabinet (years ago it was a case of find some good drivers and design a cabinet to suit!) which means that have way more contol of speaker cut off.
Mr DTM, 6 db crossovers are ok if and only if you have very rare , high quality , wide frequency speakers.. which is usually not the case.. most of those speakers start distortion long before their specified max output because of unfiltered sound signal.. :-\
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
Agree.
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Mr DTM, 6 db crossovers are ok if and only if you have very rare , high quality , wide frequency speakers.. which is usually not the case.. most of those speakers start distortion long before their specified max output because of unfiltered sound signal.. :-\
You can't really generalise that much. As Mark said, drive units, cabinet and crossover are part of a whole. It's a bit like pistons, rods and crank on an engine. Change one without considering how they fit into the whole design and it just won't work.
Some designs can work with a gentle crossover, some need more aggressive filtering.. If the end result works, then the job is done, and how it's achieved isn't really an issue, but choosing drivers that avoid too complex a crossover will increase your chances of success.
I'm not familiar with these speakers. Some older designs still sound great today, others really show their age. Where these lie will determine whether it's worth getting them re-coned or not, IMHO, but you'll be very lucky to find modern drivers that work in the cabinet without a complete redesign and a good bit of experimentation.
Also consider that the undamaged drive units might not be performing at their best after 50 years...
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Personally, I think its a lot of time and money to be throwing onto a pair of really old speakers unless they have a sentimental/personal value attached to it. If they were vintage Quads or Tannoy's then there would be a point as they would have a resale value, if you ever decide to change or get rid. I may be wrong but the OP's speakers are not a highly sought after pair. So go get a new set of speakers. You would be surprised at some of the bargains you can find on ebay, provided you use a good splattering of judgement and cynicism.
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
::)
I have seen and examined many expensive speakers.. most of them even didnt have 2nd order crosovers..
any new model same size and impedance woofer will do the job imo.. but better bring the speaker to the shop and test with various models for better performance.. :y
Thats not a bad thing as every order added to the crossover brings in a distortion to the response........these days they often design the speakers to suit the cabinet (years ago it was a case of find some good drivers and design a cabinet to suit!) which means that have way more contol of speaker cut off.
Mr DTM, 6 db crossovers are ok if and only if you have very rare , high quality , wide frequency speakers.. which is usually not the case.. most of those speakers start distortion long before their specified max output because of unfiltered sound signal.. :-\
Cem, as per above, thanks to the ability to specifiy and design the drivers on a per application basis, the crossover are often far more simple due to as Kevin states, the reality that there is so much more to the equation than the speaker response. :y
A classis example is a sub design I saw some years ago, the enclosure had been designed (mainly thanks to the port) to give a controled 6dB roll off down to around 10Hz. The setup then used an active amp and a basic pre amp filter to compensate for this.
The result was a design that could take any old speaker yet gave an excellent flat response....
SMoke and mirrors?.....well actualy its physics ! ;D :y
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
::)
I have seen and examined many expensive speakers.. most of them even didnt have 2nd order crosovers..
any new model same size and impedance woofer will do the job imo.. but better bring the speaker to the shop and test with various models for better performance.. :y
Thats not a bad thing as every order added to the crossover brings in a distortion to the response........these days they often design the speakers to suit the cabinet (years ago it was a case of find some good drivers and design a cabinet to suit!) which means that have way more contol of speaker cut off.
Mr DTM, 6 db crossovers are ok if and only if you have very rare , high quality , wide frequency speakers.. which is usually not the case.. most of those speakers start distortion long before their specified max output because of unfiltered sound signal.. :-\
Cem, as per above, thanks to the ability to specifiy and design the drivers on a per application basis, the crossover are often far more simple due to as Kevin states, the reality that there is so much more to the equation than the speaker response. :y
A classis example is a sub design I saw some years ago, the enclosure had been designed (mainly thanks to the port) to give a controled 6dB roll off down to around 10Hz. The setup then used an active amp and a basic pre amp filter to compensate for this.
The result was a design that could take any old speaker yet gave an excellent flat response....
SMoke and mirrors?.....well actualy its physics ! ;D :y
I tought we were talking about normal speakers not the active ones ::) you are cheating ;D
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yesterday, I searched for the speakers that I built in the past (too many and I sold them).. damn this analog photo machines .. none of the pictures are around :(
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You cant just chuck any old speaker and crossover in.
The speakers used will have been chosen to match the enclosure volume and characteristics, furthermore the crossover will have been designed to suit the speakers when mounted in the enclosure.
So in reality its a case of either get them re-coned (probably also wants the magnets re-magentising to) or get some modern ones. :y
::)
I have seen and examined many expensive speakers.. most of them even didnt have 2nd order crosovers..
any new model same size and impedance woofer will do the job imo.. but better bring the speaker to the shop and test with various models for better performance.. :y
Thats not a bad thing as every order added to the crossover brings in a distortion to the response........these days they often design the speakers to suit the cabinet (years ago it was a case of find some good drivers and design a cabinet to suit!) which means that have way more contol of speaker cut off.
Mr DTM, 6 db crossovers are ok if and only if you have very rare , high quality , wide frequency speakers.. which is usually not the case.. most of those speakers start distortion long before their specified max output because of unfiltered sound signal.. :-\
Cem, as per above, thanks to the ability to specifiy and design the drivers on a per application basis, the crossover are often far more simple due to as Kevin states, the reality that there is so much more to the equation than the speaker response. :y
A classis example is a sub design I saw some years ago, the enclosure had been designed (mainly thanks to the port) to give a controled 6dB roll off down to around 10Hz. The setup then used an active amp and a basic pre amp filter to compensate for this.
The result was a design that could take any old speaker yet gave an excellent flat response....
SMoke and mirrors?.....well actualy its physics ! ;D :y
I tought we were talking about normal speakers not the active ones ::) you are cheating ;D
Not at all.....just highlighting the fact that the enclosure can be the dominant factor in the response characteristics and not the driver.
Another classis example was a design which did a similar thing and used no LF filter at all for the bass unit, by utilisinga passive radiator and designing a multi port cabinet, the LF driver had a sharp cut off just belwo its own natural slope characteristics.
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Interesting thread, had never thought about having speakers rebuilt.
Modern speakers may well be good, but I personally would love to get my hands on a reasonable pair of wharfdale E50/70 or 90 speakers.
I like Mission speakers (the taller floor standing ones) from a few years ago but after hearing some Tannoy 603 speakers I went out and bought some Tannoy 609's.
But the one thing you have to remember is that everyones personal choice and home decor is so diiferent that the end result will be so different on one system to annother.
I used to have a pair of small wharfdale speakers, sounded ok in the house, but sounded a hell of a lot better in the car wired to the stereo and dumped on the floor behind the front seats facing the roof (and they could be placed outside the car at BBQ's and party's ::) ::) :y :y
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I have seen lots of models with various power output..
best sound was from bang & olafsen and bose series if my memory is not wrong..
they were really good even in open weather conditions.. :)
ps: but before the music system, you must have thick cement walls and I mean really thick..
or your neighbours will be listening the bass sound that you dont hear :-\
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If you're looking for something with a really low "wife appreciation factor":
(http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp138/Breckland_Audio/Scalford%202012/P1000069.jpg)
;D
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Oh, and that white pillar in the background isn't holding the ceiling up.. It's the bass driver. :y
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one of these would do enough for me
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/beolab5 (http://www.bang-olufsen.com/beolab5)
or
http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/speakers/stereo_speakers/901_speakers/index.jsp (http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/speakers/stereo_speakers/901_speakers/index.jsp) (cheaper of course)
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I personaly have never liked the Bose stuff, it always sounded 'coloured' to me and harsh.
One of the better budget floor standers in recent years that I ddi like were the M74's by Mission but sadly I have had to settle for some KEF's for the lounge to appease er-indoors.
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OK guys, order order, thanks for all the reply to this thread, i now see that there is more to this than i thought,
but to return to the original question, i need to replace the sub woofer, So if i replace the sub with another of the same size and spec it should not affect the sound with regards the enclosure size, yes?.
As to the crossover all i want to do is replace the existng with a more modern item, So which make should i go with?
What make of sub do you reccomend? Pioneer, Bose, Cambridge etc.
ta Gary.
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OK guys, order order, thanks for all the reply to this thread, i now see that there is more to this than i thought,
but to return to the original question, i need to replace the sub woofer, So if i replace the sub with another of the same size and spec it should not affect the sound with regards the enclosure size, yes?.
No. This is the point we have been making. Speakers drive units can be identical in size but have totally different electrical and mechanical characteristics, which determine what type of enclosure they will work in. Without knowing exactly how the old drive units behaved and finding an exact replacement you won't find something that sounds decent in that enclosure, hence the recommendation to have the existing units re-coned.
As to the crossover all i want to do is replace the existng with a more modern item, So which make should i go with?
What make of sub do you reccomend? Pioneer, Bose, Cambridge etc.
ta Gary.
Again, the crossover design will be dependant on the rest of the speaker design parameters so nothing "off the shelf" will work properly, as it won't be designed for the specific speaker. If you are concerned about the crossover, replace the capacitors with modern types of the same value, type and voltage rating as they are the only parts of the crossover which will have deteriorated in reality.
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OK guys, order order, thanks for all the reply to this thread, i now see that there is more to this than i thought,
but to return to the original question, i need to replace the sub woofer, So if i replace the sub with another of the same size and spec it should not affect the sound with regards the enclosure size, yes?.
1.No. This is the point we have been making. Speakers drive units can be identical in size but have totally different electrical and mechanical characteristics, which determine what type of enclosure they will work in. Without knowing exactly how the old drive units behaved and finding an exact replacement you won't find something that sounds decent in that enclosure, hence the recommendation to have the existing units re-coned.
As to the crossover all i want to do is replace the existng with a more modern item, So which make should i go with?
What make of sub do you reccomend? Pioneer, Bose, Cambridge etc.
ta Gary.
2.Again, the crossover design will be dependant on the rest of the speaker design parameters so nothing "off the shelf" will work properly, as it won't be designed for the specific speaker. If you are concerned about the crossover, replace the capacitors with modern types of the same value, type and voltage rating as they are the only parts of the crossover which will have deteriorated in reality.
2. Agreed..
1. agreed to disagree ;D :y
100% match may not be achieved, but trying with some suitable /same impedance and size bass unit may even be better..
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I personaly have never liked the Bose stuff, it always sounded 'coloured' to me and harsh.
One of the better budget floor standers in recent years that I ddi like were the M74's by Mission but sadly I have had to settle for some KEF's for the lounge to appease er-indoors.
in my experience , some speakers which are good in pop may not sound good in classics.. its a design fact.. and its really hard to say this the best one.. it primarily depends on personal choices, living area , decoration etc etc.. :-\
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2. Agreed..
1. agreed to disagree ;D :y
100% match may not be achieved, but trying with some suitable /same impedance and size bass unit may even be better..
Here's a quick test/example.
Lest take two 200mm woofers at 8 ohms
So, the first one:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/goldwood-gw-8028-8-woofer-8-ohm/
and the second:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/eminence-alpha-8a-8-woofer/
Huge difference between them and both would give very different enclosure designs.....
yet the impedance and size are the same............
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2. Agreed..
1. agreed to disagree ;D :y
100% match may not be achieved, but trying with some suitable /same impedance and size bass unit may even be better..
Here's a quick test/example.
Lest take two 200mm woofers at 8 ohms
So, the first one:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/goldwood-gw-8028-8-woofer-8-ohm/ (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/goldwood-gw-8028-8-woofer-8-ohm/)
and the second:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/eminence-alpha-8a-8-woofer/ (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/eminence-alpha-8a-8-woofer/)
Huge difference between them and both would give very different enclosure designs.....
yet the impedance and size are the same............
both will give sound :) less or more , bad or good..flat one is more suitable for classic music where the other is for pop..
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2. Agreed..
1. agreed to disagree ;D :y
100% match may not be achieved, but trying with some suitable /same impedance and size bass unit may even be better..
Here's a quick test/example.
Lest take two 200mm woofers at 8 ohms
So, the first one:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/goldwood-gw-8028-8-woofer-8-ohm/ (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/goldwood-gw-8028-8-woofer-8-ohm/)
and the second:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/eminence-alpha-8a-8-woofer/ (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/eminence-alpha-8a-8-woofer/)
Huge difference between them and both would give very different enclosure designs.....
yet the impedance and size are the same............
both will give sound :) less or more , bad or good..flat one is more suitable for classic music where the other is for pop..
Lol, well actualy both can be made to give a flatish response by designing the cabinet a certain way.....
Key thing is though that they both need very different size cabinets, put the 'better' one in the worng size box and the response curve you see will be NOTHING like quoted. :y :y
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Maybe i shouldnt ask about these speakers that ive been looking at replacing a couple of cheap 'tinny' sony speakers...
http://www.richersounds.com/product/bookshelf-speakers/wharfedale/diamond-9.0/whar-9.0-blk
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OK guys, order order, thanks for all the reply to this thread, i now see that there is more to this than i thought,
but to return to the original question, i need to replace the sub woofer, So if i replace the sub with another of the same size and spec it should not affect the sound with regards the enclosure size, yes?.
No. This is the point we have been making. Speakers drive units can be identical in size but have totally different electrical and mechanical characteristics, which determine what type of enclosure they will work in. Without knowing exactly how the old drive units behaved and finding an exact replacement you won't find something that sounds decent in that enclosure, hence the recommendation to have the existing units re-coned.
As to the crossover all i want to do is replace the existng with a more modern item, So which make should i go with?
What make of sub do you reccomend? Pioneer, Bose, Cambridge etc.
ta Gary.
Again, the crossover design will be dependant on the rest of the speaker design parameters so nothing "off the shelf" will work properly, as it won't be designed for the specific speaker. If you are concerned about the crossover, replace the capacitors with modern types of the same value, type and voltage rating as they are the only parts of the crossover which will have deteriorated in reality.
Absolutely, couldn't agree more Kevin.
It is very rare to find a better driver than the one that the cabinet was designed for, if the box is too big or small, you also lose the correct amount of air to support the driver in it's movement, leading to damage as well as poorer sound.
And if you change the crossover to one to fit your new drivers, chances are you'll kill the other devices.
I would suggest pricing the re-cone, then going to your local hi-fi shop, (proper hi-fi, not currys ;)), and seeing if you can find replacement cabinets that you like for the same sort of money.
If you can, all well & good as (as someone pointed out) the rest of the componants in your speakers may well be getting close to dying too.
If not, you either need to have the re-cone and chance the other bits are ok, or spend a little more on a pair of boxes you do like.
Oh, and for the record, I would avoid B&O.....vastly over-priced Phillips guts, in boxes made by someone that should design sofas for Ikea, that flatly refuse to work properly with ANY other makes of anything, thus forcing you to spend thousands to achieve what you already have for a tenth of the price!!
Apart from the banana phone.......average performance, but really cool looks ;D ;D
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Oh, and Bose x-overs are always different by miles to everyone elses..........see Bose section on here!! :y
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::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
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::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
So did Lucas.... ;D ;D ;D :y
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::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
So did Lucas.... ;D ;D ;D :y
"A 2005 market study published by Forrester Research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrester_Research) reported that Bose's brand name was among several computer and consumer electronics brands most trusted by US consumers including Dell and Hewlett-Packard.[57]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose_Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose_Corporation)
some may not agree, but even their worst speakers are far superior than many speakers I have listened..
seems like I'm not alone in my idea :)
http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article/Bose-Speakers-For-Beginners--Whet-You-Need-To-Know/332104
http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Installation/CEDIA_Members/V7K9F9H9 (http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Installation/CEDIA_Members/V7K9F9H9)
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The trouble is Cem, we have quite a few excellent british speaker manufacturers in the UK who produce some fantastic products many of which are not exported......and for me, thier sound is way better than the design compromised Bose units.
Bose are good for the stage and venue stuff, but the home stuff is a 'middle of the road'
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The trouble is Cem, we have quite a few excellent british speaker manufacturers in the UK who produce some fantastic products many of which are not exported......and for me, thier sound is way better than the design compromised Bose units.
Bose are good for the stage and venue stuff, but the home stuff is a 'middle of the road'
ok.. hats off to national feelings.. :y there is no replacement for it..
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My Kef 104ab Speakers, maybe old but I loved the sound listening to heavy rock with them, but my wife didn't like the size, so they are currently in the attic. ::) ::)
Lounge currently has a more atheistic cheap crap Sony system. ::) ::)
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Cem, I have to strongly disgaree with you. There is a difference between reading about a manufacturer or speaker or reviews vs listening to it yourself.
Bose for me is quite coloured, and not in a nice way. The top end is brighter than it should be and there is usually an excess of the lower registers. My feeling is this is perhaps done intentionally to get that wow factor when you have a quick listen in a showroom. A technique employed by a few other manufacturers, for eg. Naim.
B&O on the other hand do often sound good, but are vastly overpriced for what they do. For eg the ice power modules that they use for amplification certainly doesnt cost anywhere near what they charge.
There are various hifi manufacturers who produce kit that would shame B&O at a much lower price point. Yes they dont have the brand popularity that Bose have, but that does not mean that they are inferior to Bose, B&O etc.
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There are many brands on the market that cater for the 'boom tish' genre, the better speaker will add no colouration to the sound. Ultimately, you can go as far as criticise the music producers cut of the piece, if it doesn't suit your taste!
I still rate my monitor audio MA4's higher than most, although I wish I had bought a pair of quad esl's.
I worked in a hifi shop for a while and the best advice I could give was 'if they sound great to you with your eyes closed, and you can afford them - buy 'em'! It is such a subjective topic...! I really liked my PA speaker system though, with folded horn bins loaded with 18" fane drivers, woah, music you only felt!
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Bose for me is quite coloured, and not in a nice way. The top end is brighter than it should be and there is usually an excess of the lower registers. My feeling is this is perhaps done intentionally to get that wow factor when you have a quick listen in a showroom. A technique employed by a few other manufacturers, for eg. Naim.
Sadly this appears to be a growing trend these days, probably to pander to the majority who think that "Hi-Fi" begins with a dull, compressed download from gayTunes. ::)
I think these are the best all round speakers I've heard in a very long time. http://www.loudspeaker-art.com/emotion.html (http://www.loudspeaker-art.com/emotion.html) I can confidently say that neither Bose nor B&O make anything that comes close. It's unfortunate that they are a "bit" expensive. ;D My mate got lucky on Ebay. :o
So, it's home brewed speakers for me until another bargain comes up. ;)
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Cem, I have to strongly disgaree with you. There is a difference between reading about a manufacturer or speaker or reviews vs listening to it yourself.
No probs..Everyone can have different opinions.. and if the subject is music speakers , it may vary widely.. :y
Bose for me is quite coloured, and not in a nice way. The top end is brighter than it should be and there is usually an excess of the lower registers. My feeling is this is perhaps done intentionally to get that wow factor when you have a quick listen in a showroom. A technique employed by a few other manufacturers, for eg. Naim.
honestly, even if I dont listen bose, my equalizer settings are always V shaped unless I want to listen some specific voice..
so imo they did a favour to people who dont own equalizers.. ;D
B&O on the other hand do often sound good, but are vastly overpriced for what they do. For eg the ice power modules that they use for amplification certainly doesnt cost anywhere near what they charge.
I never had B & O.. the shops/places I worked in student years had them.. and they are targeted for a specific rich class..
remember those electronic components are 3-4 times expensive here then europe prices.. :(
There are various hifi manufacturers who produce kit that would shame B&O at a much lower price point. Yes they dont have the brand popularity that Bose have, but that does not mean that they are inferior to Bose, B&O etc.
not necessarily of course.. for example I prefer to build my speakers instead of paying them a fortune..but if I had the money I wouldnt think twice before buying them.. :) Unfortunately the home I have now cant handle strong speakers as some neighbours work nights and sleep daytime.. :(
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::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
B&O doesn't work easily with anything else, that is a fact.
The sound quality vs. price was the criticism- how long they've been doing it is irrelevant
I do like some Bose stuff, my point was that they also have a different way of doing things, which again makes it incompatible with other stuff- there are a lot of exploded amps on here to prove that!
I would at this point like to point out that for 4 years i worked for Rega Research, and as such have a comparisom room full of everything from b&0 to linn, think that qualifies as "knowing something about it"
And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
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And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
Agreed. I don't even have any form of tone control and never miss it.... Although I have been thinking about trying some software-based room correction, but that's a different matter.
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And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
Agreed. I don't even have any form of tone control and never miss it.... Although I have been thinking about trying some software-based room correction, but that's a different matter.
I've used some on a particularly nasty room, and tbh I ended up suggesting to the customer that they break-up the large amount of hard flat surfaces with either feature or drape.......kinda knew that before I switched the computer on- depends very much on if you actually have a problem or if you are just looking to make a good room sound better
Although, unless you already have or can borrow a decent reference mic, that plus s/w can be very costly to tell you what you already knew :-\
-
::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
B&O doesn't work easily with anything else, that is a fact.
I havent seen any probs with their speakers compatibility. (as we are talking about speakers now)
The sound quality vs. price was the criticism- how long they've been doing it is irrelevant
a company surviving for 90 years cant produce wrong products.. so its directly relevant..
and for price, they target a specific class and its their marketing policy..
I do like some Bose stuff, my point was that they also have a different way of doing things, which again makes it incompatible with other stuff- there are a lot of exploded amps on here to prove that!
modern amplifiers mostly have protection fuses.. rarely they get cooked , let alone exploding .. ???
I would at this point like to point out that for 4 years i worked for Rega Research, and as such have a comparisom room full of everything from b&0 to linn, think that qualifies as "knowing something about it"
And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
;D a v shaped equalizer shows my preference.. lets say I like lows and highs a bit exaggerated.. and I use that most of the time on any system.. so nothing to do with speakers..
-
::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
B&O doesn't work easily with anything else, that is a fact.
I havent seen any probs with their speakers compatibility. (as we are talking about speakers now)
The sound quality vs. price was the criticism- how long they've been doing it is irrelevant
a company surviving for 90 years cant produce wrong products.. so its directly relevant..
and for price, they target a specific class and its their marketing policy..
I do like some Bose stuff, my point was that they also have a different way of doing things, which again makes it incompatible with other stuff- there are a lot of exploded amps on here to prove that!
modern amplifiers mostly have protection fuses.. rarely they get cooked , let alone exploding .. ???
I would at this point like to point out that for 4 years i worked for Rega Research, and as such have a comparisom room full of everything from b&0 to linn, think that qualifies as "knowing something about it"
And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
;D a v shaped equalizer shows my preference.. lets say I like lows and highs a bit exaggerated.. and I use that most of the time on any system.. so nothing to do with speakers..
B&O are lucky in that most of there customers suffer from "it's expensive so it must be good" which is great for them, not so good for people like me trying to explain that they've bought something vastly over-priced. The speakers sound average, cost too much, and the rest of their equipment is just too much hard work to intergrate- no one manufacturer makes the best of everything, hence why people buy seperates
No matter how well protected an amp is, it is possible to kill it. Read some of the Bose threads on here, or talk to daveDND!!
As for your EQ settings being nothing to do with the speakers, that's absolute rubbish. You say you like hi's & lo's, so buy speakers that do it already, think D has a suggestion above!!
If you need to add stuff to make something work, it's the wrong product for the application, unless you can't afford the right product, in which case that's your problem- not the speakers!
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I've used some on a particularly nasty room, and tbh I ended up suggesting to the customer that they break-up the large amount of hard flat surfaces with either feature or drape.......kinda knew that before I switched the computer on- depends very much on if you actually have a problem or if you are just looking to make a good room sound better
Finally we're at the crux of the matter. ;)
The room is the bit you're generally stuck with, small modifications aside, and that's what should determine your choice of speaker. No point in getting those Carlos Fandango 18" bass drivers in huge cabinets if your listening room is small. That will have you reaching for the EQ (or the Aspirin). ;D
Although, unless you already have or can borrow a decent reference mic, that plus s/w can be very costly to tell you what you already knew :-\
Yes.. Thinking about investigating a few open source software projects that claim to do it. I do know where there might be a 2nd hand Behringer DEQ going, though.
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I've used some on a particularly nasty room, and tbh I ended up suggesting to the customer that they break-up the large amount of hard flat surfaces with either feature or drape.......kinda knew that before I switched the computer on- depends very much on if you actually have a problem or if you are just looking to make a good room sound better
Finally we're at the crux of the matter. ;)
The room is the bit you're generally stuck with, small modifications aside, and that's what should determine your choice of speaker. No point in getting those Carlos Fandango 18" bass drivers in huge cabinets if your listening room is small. That will have you reaching for the EQ (or the Aspirin). ;D
Although, unless you already have or can borrow a decent reference mic, that plus s/w can be very costly to tell you what you already knew :-\
Yes.. Thinking about investigating a few open source software projects that claim to do it. I do know where there might be a 2nd hand Behringer DEQ going, though.
I'm not stuck, that was years ago......think your confusing me with the OP!
And before everyone else has a go, the behringer DEQ is ok, and their £70 reference mic is amazingly flat for the money!
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I'm not stuck, that was years ago......think your confusing me with the OP!
Nope. Just making a general point that what works in Cem's living room might not work in mine and vice versa, so an argument about speakers is a bit pointless without room dimensions. ;)
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I'm not stuck, that was years ago......think your confusing me with the OP!
Nope. Just making a general point that what works in Cem's living room might not work in mine and vice versa, so an argument about speakers is a bit pointless without room dimensions. ;)
True, but it sounds like he'd put a "disco smile" on the eq wherever he put the boxes!!
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True, but it sounds like he'd put a "disco smile" on the eq wherever he put the boxes!!
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/bangshead.gif)
;)
-
::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
B&O doesn't work easily with anything else, that is a fact.
I havent seen any probs with their speakers compatibility. (as we are talking about speakers now)
The sound quality vs. price was the criticism- how long they've been doing it is irrelevant
a company surviving for 90 years cant produce wrong products.. so its directly relevant..
and for price, they target a specific class and its their marketing policy..
I do like some Bose stuff, my point was that they also have a different way of doing things, which again makes it incompatible with other stuff- there are a lot of exploded amps on here to prove that!
modern amplifiers mostly have protection fuses.. rarely they get cooked , let alone exploding .. ???
I would at this point like to point out that for 4 years i worked for Rega Research, and as such have a comparisom room full of everything from b&0 to linn, think that qualifies as "knowing something about it"
And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
;D a v shaped equalizer shows my preference.. lets say I like lows and highs a bit exaggerated.. and I use that most of the time on any system.. so nothing to do with speakers..
B&O are lucky in that most of there customers suffer from "it's expensive so it must be good" which is great for them, not so good for people like me trying to explain that they've bought something vastly over-priced. The speakers sound average, cost too much, and the rest of their equipment is just too much hard work to intergrate- no one manufacturer makes the best of everything, hence why people buy seperates
No matter how well protected an amp is, it is possible to kill it. Read some of the Bose threads on here, or talk to daveDND!!
As for your EQ settings being nothing to do with the speakers, that's absolute rubbish. You say you like hi's & lo's, so buy speakers that do it already, think D has a suggestion above!!
If you need to add stuff to make something work, it's the wrong product for the application, unless you can't afford the right product, in which case that's your problem- not the speakers!
never seen a B&O customer taking the system back the next day.. and definitely they dont have average sound.. there are not lots of tannoys, kefs,jbls around and in every home..even sony,pioneer are well above average.. pricewise even the last 2 brands are not cheapo here..
and for car systems.. their working conditions are obviously different.. and if you compare omega bose system, do it with another factory fit car system.. there is no meaning to compare different things..
for your information: not all but most speakers are designed for flat response .. there is a reason why equalizers are built for ;)
-
If your speakers are designed to give a flat response and are appropriate for the room, you'll get a flat response without an equaliser, no? ;)
-
::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
B&O doesn't work easily with anything else, that is a fact.
I havent seen any probs with their speakers compatibility. (as we are talking about speakers now)
The sound quality vs. price was the criticism- how long they've been doing it is irrelevant
a company surviving for 90 years cant produce wrong products.. so its directly relevant..
and for price, they target a specific class and its their marketing policy..
I do like some Bose stuff, my point was that they also have a different way of doing things, which again makes it incompatible with other stuff- there are a lot of exploded amps on here to prove that!
modern amplifiers mostly have protection fuses.. rarely they get cooked , let alone exploding .. ???
I would at this point like to point out that for 4 years i worked for Rega Research, and as such have a comparisom room full of everything from b&0 to linn, think that qualifies as "knowing something about it"
And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
;D a v shaped equalizer shows my preference.. lets say I like lows and highs a bit exaggerated.. and I use that most of the time on any system.. so nothing to do with speakers..
B&O are lucky in that most of there customers suffer from "it's expensive so it must be good" which is great for them, not so good for people like me trying to explain that they've bought something vastly over-priced. The speakers sound average, cost too much, and the rest of their equipment is just too much hard work to intergrate- no one manufacturer makes the best of everything, hence why people buy seperates
No matter how well protected an amp is, it is possible to kill it. Read some of the Bose threads on here, or talk to daveDND!!
As for your EQ settings being nothing to do with the speakers, that's absolute rubbish. You say you like hi's & lo's, so buy speakers that do it already, think D has a suggestion above!!
If you need to add stuff to make something work, it's the wrong product for the application, unless you can't afford the right product, in which case that's your problem- not the speakers!
never seen a B&O customer taking the system back the next day.. and definitely they dont have average sound.. there are not lots of tannoys, kefs,jbls around and in every home..even sony,pioneer are well above average.. pricewise even the last 2 brands are not cheapo here..
and for car systems.. their working conditions are obviously different.. and if you compare omega bose system, do it with another factory fit car system.. there is no meaning to compare different things..
for your information: not all but most speakers are designed for flat response .. there is a reason why equalizers are built for ;)
Unfortunatly most of them get it wrong, they wouldn't know a flat response if slapped with a pancake.
And now your singing sony's praises?
*runs for cover*
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If your speakers are designed to give a flat response and are appropriate for the room, you'll get a flat response without an equaliser, no? ;)
Kevin, you may already know that in every song, frequency gains are dfifferently arranged by the stuido/firm whatever..
and I will use flat response if only I will listen classics.. but not for disco or metal..
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If your speakers are designed to give a flat response and are appropriate for the room, you'll get a flat response without an equaliser, no?
;D ;D
But he doesn't want flat, would suggest jbl hf with 24" turbo subs.......no mid required :y
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If your speakers are designed to give a flat response and are appropriate for the room, you'll get a flat response without an equaliser, no? ;)
Kevin, you may already know that in every song, frequency gains are dfifferently arranged by the stuido/firm whatever..
and I will use flat response if only I will listen classics.. but not for disco or metal..
But "disco" has extended lo + hi anyway, how much do you need???
-
::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
B&O doesn't work easily with anything else, that is a fact.
I havent seen any probs with their speakers compatibility. (as we are talking about speakers now)
The sound quality vs. price was the criticism- how long they've been doing it is irrelevant
a company surviving for 90 years cant produce wrong products.. so its directly relevant..
and for price, they target a specific class and its their marketing policy..
I do like some Bose stuff, my point was that they also have a different way of doing things, which again makes it incompatible with other stuff- there are a lot of exploded amps on here to prove that!
modern amplifiers mostly have protection fuses.. rarely they get cooked , let alone exploding .. ???
I would at this point like to point out that for 4 years i worked for Rega Research, and as such have a comparisom room full of everything from b&0 to linn, think that qualifies as "knowing something about it"
And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
;D a v shaped equalizer shows my preference.. lets say I like lows and highs a bit exaggerated.. and I use that most of the time on any system.. so nothing to do with speakers..
B&O are lucky in that most of there customers suffer from "it's expensive so it must be good" which is great for them, not so good for people like me trying to explain that they've bought something vastly over-priced. The speakers sound average, cost too much, and the rest of their equipment is just too much hard work to intergrate- no one manufacturer makes the best of everything, hence why people buy seperates
No matter how well protected an amp is, it is possible to kill it. Read some of the Bose threads on here, or talk to daveDND!!
As for your EQ settings being nothing to do with the speakers, that's absolute rubbish. You say you like hi's & lo's, so buy speakers that do it already, think D has a suggestion above!!
If you need to add stuff to make something work, it's the wrong product for the application, unless you can't afford the right product, in which case that's your problem- not the speakers!
never seen a B&O customer taking the system back the next day.. and definitely they dont have average sound.. there are not lots of tannoys, kefs,jbls around and in every home..even sony,pioneer are well above average.. pricewise even the last 2 brands are not cheapo here..
and for car systems.. their working conditions are obviously different.. and if you compare omega bose system, do it with another factory fit car system.. there is no meaning to compare different things..
for your information: not all but most speakers are designed for flat response .. there is a reason why equalizers are built for ;)
Unfortunatly most of them get it wrong, they wouldn't know a flat response if slapped with a pancake.
And now your singing sony's praises?
*runs for cover*
you have mentioned that B&O have avg sound.. and I said that they are high up in the list by telling even sony or pioneer are above avg..
-
If your speakers are designed to give a flat response and are appropriate for the room, you'll get a flat response without an equaliser, no? ;)
Kevin, you may already know that in every song, frequency gains are dfifferently arranged by the stuido/firm whatever..
and I will use flat response if only I will listen classics.. but not for disco or metal..
But "disco" has extended lo + hi anyway, how much do you need???
;D my mood will decide that ..
-
::) ::)
Bang and Olafsen have been producing speakers from the time your grandfathers young.. if you criticise something
be sure you know something about it.. ;)
and for Bose, its a well accepted famous brand.. spending large sums for research and selling their products in all continents..
B&O doesn't work easily with anything else, that is a fact.
I havent seen any probs with their speakers compatibility. (as we are talking about speakers now)
The sound quality vs. price was the criticism- how long they've been doing it is irrelevant
a company surviving for 90 years cant produce wrong products.. so its directly relevant..
and for price, they target a specific class and its their marketing policy..
I do like some Bose stuff, my point was that they also have a different way of doing things, which again makes it incompatible with other stuff- there are a lot of exploded amps on here to prove that!
modern amplifiers mostly have protection fuses.. rarely they get cooked , let alone exploding .. ???
I would at this point like to point out that for 4 years i worked for Rega Research, and as such have a comparisom room full of everything from b&0 to linn, think that qualifies as "knowing something about it"
And always a v shaped equaliser??? You bought the wrong speakers. Equalisers should be flat unless you are correcting poor/very old recordings or for rooms with poor acoustics, if you have to use it all the time, then they are either poor quality or not suitable for your needs
;D a v shaped equalizer shows my preference.. lets say I like lows and highs a bit exaggerated.. and I use that most of the time on any system.. so nothing to do with speakers..
B&O are lucky in that most of there customers suffer from "it's expensive so it must be good" which is great for them, not so good for people like me trying to explain that they've bought something vastly over-priced. The speakers sound average, cost too much, and the rest of their equipment is just too much hard work to intergrate- no one manufacturer makes the best of everything, hence why people buy seperates
No matter how well protected an amp is, it is possible to kill it. Read some of the Bose threads on here, or talk to daveDND!!
As for your EQ settings being nothing to do with the speakers, that's absolute rubbish. You say you like hi's & lo's, so buy speakers that do it already, think D has a suggestion above!!
If you need to add stuff to make something work, it's the wrong product for the application, unless you can't afford the right product, in which case that's your problem- not the speakers!
never seen a B&O customer taking the system back the next day.. and definitely they dont have average sound.. there are not lots of tannoys, kefs,jbls around and in every home..even sony,pioneer are well above average.. pricewise even the last 2 brands are not cheapo here..
and for car systems.. their working conditions are obviously different.. and if you compare omega bose system, do it with another factory fit car system.. there is no meaning to compare different things..
for your information: not all but most speakers are designed for flat response .. there is a reason why equalizers are built for ;)
Unfortunatly most of them get it wrong, they wouldn't know a flat response if slapped with a pancake.
And now your singing sony's praises?
*runs for cover*
you have mentioned that B&O have avg sound.. and I said that they are high up in the list by telling even sony or pioneer are above avg..
Sony & pioneer above average???????
You must stop buying speakers from Lidl. ;-)
-
::) ;D
the market is full of chineese speakers boxed here.. and its the most selling item.. so they define the avg.. ;D