Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: I_want_an_Omega on 15 April 2012, 17:33:31
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Ok, as per title. How do you stop the effect of water hammer, i.e. noise in water pipes when the washing machine etc suddenly closes a valve. The momentum of the flowing water then causes the pipes to rattle.
I've seen various preventers for about £30 or so - but are they any good at all and does anyone have any experience of them - or any other way of stopping the problem?
TIA
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I can't help you Rob but don't you mean WATER TORTURE from your daughter. ;D ;D ;D
By the way what did you do about her car seat?
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I dont suffer from that problem and i have quite high pressure.
Surely finding the pipe thats 'rattling' about and clamping it down so it carnt move must be a cheaper fix.
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Ok, as per title. How do you stop the effect of water hammer, i.e. noise in water pipes when the washing machine etc suddenly closes a valve. The momentum of the flowing water then causes the pipes to rattle.
I've seen various preventers for about £30 or so - but are they any good at all and does anyone have any experience of them - or any other way of stopping the problem?
TIA
In my experience, the pipe rattles against a wall or another pipe for example. This is often caused by the pipes not being fixed at frequent enough intervals to the wall. Need to use more of these http://allpipefittings.org/_cache/Browse/img/Screw_Pipe_Fittings_0.jpg
...maybe...
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its trapped air,try holding your hand over tap and turn on trying not to let the water out,also try closing the stop cock down about to slow pressure down.
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I can't help you Rob but don't you mean WATER TORTURE from your daughter. ;D ;D ;D
By the way what did you do about her car seat?
Still under discussion. New seat cover is still available via Andy C, but @ £118 + Vat it seems a lot to spend on a Corsa which is starting to fray around the edges. :'(
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its trapped air,try holding your hand over tap and turn on trying not to let the water out,also try closing the stop cock down about to slow pressure down.
No it isn't. My plumber mate has told me it's caused by the momentum of the flowing water which has to stop instantly.
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I dont suffer from that problem and i have quite high pressure.
Surely finding the pipe thats 'rattling' about and clamping it down so it carnt move must be a cheaper fix.
Thinking about it, the pipe that is doing the rattling is one of those 1/4 flexible ones which connects to the fridge to provide cooled drinking water & ice. I'll have to see if there is a way of securing it a bit - which may be a problem as the pipe has to be accessible to replace the in-line filter which needs replacing every year or so. Food for thought though - thanks :y.
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I dont suffer from that problem and i have quite high pressure.
Surely finding the pipe thats 'rattling' about and clamping it down so it carnt move must be a cheaper fix.
Thinking about it, the pipe that is doing the rattling is one of those 1/4 flexible ones which connects to the fridge to provide cooled drinking water & ice. I'll have to see if there is a way of securing it a bit - which may be a problem as the pipe has to be accessible to replace the in-line filter which needs replacing every year or so. Food for thought though - thanks :y.
Perhaps a cable tie or a wire tie to fix it to part of the back of the fridge would to the job......
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water hammer is usally caused by a ballvalve washer or a tap that has play in the spindle,if its the washing machine is it just cold mains feed or hot and cold,could be a faulty valve in washing machine ,but check pipe works is secured aswell...
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water hammer is usally caused by a ballvalve washer or a tap that has play in the spindle,if its the washing machine is it just cold mains feed or hot and cold,could be a faulty valve in washing machine ,but check pipe works is secured aswell...
Will do, but will secure the 1/4 inch pipes to/from the water filter first :y
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I dont suffer from that problem and i have quite high pressure.
Surely finding the pipe thats 'rattling' about and clamping it down so it carnt move must be a cheaper fix.
Thinking about it, the pipe that is doing the rattling is one of those 1/4 flexible ones which connects to the fridge to provide cooled drinking water & ice. I'll have to see if there is a way of securing it a bit - which may be a problem as the pipe has to be accessible to replace the in-line filter which needs replacing every year or so. Food for thought though - thanks :y.
Perhaps a cable tie or a wire tie to fix it to part of the back of the fridge would to the job......
God idea - thanks
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I can't help you Rob but don't you mean WATER TORTURE from your daughter. ;D ;D ;D
By the way what did you do about her car seat?
Still under discussion. New seat cover is still available via Andy C, but @ £118 + Vat it seems a lot to spend on a Corsa which is starting to fray around the edges. :'(
Blimey!! That seems a bit steep, is that for the complete set, back and seat? If it's the complete set then just get the seat base cover, I know it might look a bit odd to start with but it soon blends in mate.
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I can't help you Rob but don't you mean WATER TORTURE from your daughter. ;D ;D ;D
By the way what did you do about her car seat?
Still under discussion. New seat cover is still available via Andy C, but @ £118 + Vat it seems a lot to spend on a Corsa which is starting to fray around the edges. :'(
Blimey!! That seems a bit steep, is that for the complete set, back and seat? If it's the complete set then just get the seat base cover, I know it might look a bit odd to start with but it soon blends in mate.
A mate recently checked the price of a full set of covers for his NSX which was starting to look a little shabby. At almost £6K, it would have been cheaper to pay someone to retrim the entire car! The leather would have been better quality too.
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its trapped air,try holding your hand over tap and turn on trying not to let the water out,also try closing the stop cock down about to slow pressure down.
No it isn't. My plumber mate has told me it's caused by the momentum of the flowing water which has to stop instantly.
That may be so, but if the pipes are held securely it would not do it ... otherwise ALL the pipes in the house would do it, as they are under the same stop / start pressure. So you need to get them held in place IMO
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Ive been to a lot off call outs,due to water hammer,its not trapped air,allways the ballvalve on the storeage tank or cisterns,also can happen when turning a tap off which is due to wear in the tap insert,
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Its a pressure wave set up in the water once the flow is interrupted quickly .
Although securing pipes will help, it does nothing to address the problem, the only way to do is that something which can absorb the energy e.g. a small pressure vessel (which is what your 30 quid will be buying you).
If there was air in the system it would not bang as that would effectively abosrb the energy
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Ive been to a lot off call outs,due to water hammer,its not trapped air,allways the ballvalve on the storeage tank or cisterns,also can happen when turning a tap off which is due to wear in the tap insert,
Its a pressure wave set up in the water once the flow is interrupted quickly .
Although securing pipes will help, it does nothing to address the problem, the only way to do is that something which can absorb the energy e.g. a small pressure vessel (which is what your 30 quid will be buying you).
If there was air in the system it would not bang as that would effectively abosrb the energy
Interesting. Of course, I am only noting my own experiences - and those don't include water storage tanks, as we don't tend to have them here.
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Ive been to a lot off call outs,due to water hammer,its not trapped air,allways the ballvalve on the storeage tank or cisterns,also can happen when turning a tap off which is due to wear in the tap insert,
I would second this opinion. :y Strangely it sometimes only happens on one outlet / tap in the house & not the others. Just done one on Friday - was only noisy when using the hot bath tap . Noise was located to the cold loft tank ball valve . Changed that (10 minute job) & happy days all quiet now. :y :y :y
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
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Basic physics people.....water flows with inertia, sudden closure of a valve and the energy has to go somewhere and in this case its a bang as the pipes are vibrated. This will probably occur towards the end of a pipe run or a certain stub
The only real solution is to fit something that can absorb the energy and given that a liquid can not be compressed, you need a gas...hence the shock arrestors (pressure vessel basicly) :y
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
All you have done is fit a valve which closes slower......all will be well until you get some new taps, a different washing machine/dishwasher....and then it could well all come back. :y
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Not sure on the exact term of water hammer, but we have a problem in our house with banging pipes when the dishwasher or washing machine cut the flow suddenly.
While fitting a new bathroom we had to rip put the boxing around a section of pipe work that travels vertically down to ground level. Non of the pipes in there where secured, and can be seen to shudder when turning the tap off suddenly, or as the dish washer ran they would bang the wall as flow was cut more abruptly.
IMO secure the pipes as a priority, although its not possible to reach ours without pulling the kitchen apart as well. In order to bang they must be able to move. Or turn the water pressure down at the stop cock, think firemans hose and two or three fireman to hold it due to pressure.
IME anyway, presume we're talking about the same thing..?
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Not sure on the exact term of water hammer, but we have a problem in our house with banging pipes when the dishwasher or washing machine cut the flow suddenly.
While fitting a new bathroom we had to rip put the boxing around a section of pipe work that travels vertically down to ground level. Non of the pipes in there where secured, and can be seen to shudder when turning the tap off suddenly, or as the dish washer ran they would bang the wall as flow was cut more abruptly.
IMO secure the pipes as a priority, although its not possible to reach ours without pulling the kitchen apart as well. In order to bang they must be able to move. Or turn the water pressure down at the stop cock, think firemans hose and two or three fireman to hold it due to pressure.
IME anyway, presume we're talking about the same thing..?
Yep
But all your doing is treating the symptom and not the cause. :y
Pressure waves in your pipe work are not good as they will find the next weakest link :y
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We get it as well, need to pinpoint if its the dishwasher or washing machine - only ever hear it in the early hours, even when those appliances are on during the day. Not sure why.
I think both cold feeds to these are mains feed, hot feed for washing machine is obviously from our tank.
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We get it as well, need to pinpoint if its the dishwasher or washing machine - only ever hear it in the early hours, even when those appliances are on during the day. Not sure why.
I think both cold feeds to these are mains feed, hot feed for washing machine is obviously from our tank.
I would imagine that your water pressure drops during the day, when everyone is awake and builds back up during the night...
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We get it as well, need to pinpoint if its the dishwasher or washing machine - only ever hear it in the early hours, even when those appliances are on during the day. Not sure why.
I think both cold feeds to these are mains feed, hot feed for washing machine is obviously from our tank.
I would imagine that your water pressure drops during the day, when everyone is awake and builds back up during the night...
Possibly, and, of course, if someone nearby is drawing water, they may dissipate some of the surge.
Look on the bright side, TheBoy. It may eventually take out that water meter, and perhaps the dishwasher, too. You'll have to find something else to moan about then. :-X
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We get it as well, need to pinpoint if its the dishwasher or washing machine - only ever hear it in the early hours, even when those appliances are on during the day. Not sure why.
I think both cold feeds to these are mains feed, hot feed for washing machine is obviously from our tank.
I would imagine that your water pressure drops during the day, when everyone is awake and builds back up during the night...
Possibly, and, of course, if someone nearby is drawing water, they may dissipate some of the surge.
Look on the bright side, TheBoy. It may eventually take out that water meter, and perhaps the dishwasher, too. You'll have to find something else to moan about then. :-X
I was thinking, during the day, when most peeps are awake, using water, the pressure would drop....and then rise again as peeps goto bed.....
However the cynical me, wouldnt be surprised in the least, if the water boards reduced the pressure when it is least used...ie at night....and then increase it again at say 5am onwards to cope with demand of showers/etc.
This tact would, of course, reduce the amount of water they loose to leaks......and fines? :-\
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We get it as well, need to pinpoint if its the dishwasher or washing machine - only ever hear it in the early hours, even when those appliances are on during the day. Not sure why.
I think both cold feeds to these are mains feed, hot feed for washing machine is obviously from our tank.
I would imagine that your water pressure drops during the day, when everyone is awake and builds back up during the night...
Possibly, and, of course, if someone nearby is drawing water, they may dissipate some of the surge.
Look on the bright side, TheBoy. It may eventually take out that water meter, and perhaps the dishwasher, too. You'll have to find something else to moan about then. :-X
Never moaned about the meter being broken. Moaned about the competence of Anglian's contractors, esp when I had to show the retard how to fit it
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
All you have done is fit a valve which closes slower......all will be well until you get some new taps, a different washing machine/dishwasher....and then it could well all come back. :y
No, ours was only linked to the flush...... :y :y
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
All you have done is fit a valve which closes slower......all will be well until you get some new taps, a different washing machine/dishwasher....and then it could well all come back. :y
No, ours was only linked to the flush...... :y :y
Exactly, you fitted a valve which just happens to close slower......its not fixed the route cause. :y
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
All you have done is fit a valve which closes slower......all will be well until you get some new taps, a different washing machine/dishwasher....and then it could well all come back. :y
No, ours was only linked to the flush...... :y :y
Exactly, you fitted a valve which just happens to close slower......its not fixed the route cause. :y
Ah ha, not surprised that we may have a loose pipe the way the plumbing is in this house, before my time I must add..... :D :D
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its trapped air,try holding your hand over tap and turn on trying not to let the water out,also try closing the stop cock down about to slow pressure down.
No it isn't. My plumber mate has told me it's caused by the momentum of the flowing water which has to stop instantly.
Your plumber tells the truth. The water hammer is caused by water that was traveling too fast suddenly hitting the brakes.
The design of the solenoid valve in the washing machine is one issue. It is designed to switch between on/off rather than gradually shutting off. The surge arrestors are intended to provide an air cushion and give the high pressure water somewhere to go. I don't think they are that effective TBH.
Insufficient pipe supports are always bad news. Improving the bracketing where you can hear the pipes rattling will help.
Excessive water pressure will cause high water velocities. I fitted a water pressure reducing valve in my house because the pressure was stupidly high. If you fitted one to only serve the washing machine you could adjust it so that the water hammer stopped but the machine still filled quickly enough. I don't like trying to use isolating valves to control flow rate because they are not designed to do so. If you do manage to restrict the flow without stopping it completely they tend to scream in protest. Certainly don't try restricting the flow to the washing machine by throttling the main stop cock or every outlet in the house will suffer.
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
Worn, poor quality or badly installed ball float valves can start oscillating if the conditions permit. Sometimes it sounds like a moaning noise, other times like a machine gun. I don't know that I would describe it as the classic 'water hammer' though.
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
Worn, poor quality or badly installed ball float valves can start oscillating if the conditions permit. Sometimes it sounds like a moaning noise, other times like a machine gun. I don't know that I would describe it as the classic 'water hammer' though.
that was my thoughts too.
Re water pressure I like it high for watering the garden. Although I have no measurable quantity to determin what high is exactly. Except the fan sprinkler reaches 10ft high. ;D
I presume speak to our plumber about a gizmo prior to the house outlets?
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We put up with the pipes vibrating after flushing the loo for months, before someone told be to replace the ball valve in the cistern and hey presto peace and quiet again; a cheap and quick fix............ :y :y :y
Worn, poor quality or badly installed ball float valves can start oscillating if the conditions permit. Sometimes it sounds like a moaning noise, other times like a machine gun. I don't know that I would describe it as the classic 'water hammer' though.
that was my thoughts too.
Re water pressure I like it high for watering the garden. Although I have no measurable quantity to determin what high is exactly. Except the fan sprinkler reaches 10ft high. ;D
I presume speak to our plumber about a gizmo prior to the house outlets?
About £50 to buy a quality PRV (Honeywell) or £25 for a cheap one from Screwfix. I fitted a cheap one......
£25
(http://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image/ae235/?wid=128&hei=128&op_sharpen=1&layer=0&size=128,128&layer=1&size=128,128&src=ae235/41943_P)
Honeywell
(http://s7g3.scene7.com/is/image/ae235/?wid=128&hei=128&op_sharpen=1&layer=0&size=128,128&layer=1&size=128,128&src=ae235/85889_P)
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its trapped air,try holding your hand over tap and turn on trying not to let the water out,also try closing the stop cock down about to slow pressure down.
No it isn't. My plumber mate has told me it's caused by the momentum of the flowing water which has to stop instantly.
Your plumber tells the truth. The water hammer is caused by water that was traveling too fast suddenly hitting the brakes.
The design of the solenoid valve in the washing machine is one issue. It is designed to switch between on/off rather than gradually shutting off. The surge arrestors are intended to provide an air cushion and give the high pressure water somewhere to go. I don't think they are that effective TBH.
Insufficient pipe supports are always bad news. Improving the bracketing where you can hear the pipes rattling will help.
Excessive water pressure will cause high water velocities. I fitted a water pressure reducing valve in my house because the pressure was stupidly high. If you fitted one to only serve the washing machine you could adjust it so that the water hammer stopped but the machine still filled quickly enough. I don't like trying to use isolating valves to control flow rate because they are not designed to do so. If you do manage to restrict the flow without stopping it completely they tend to scream in protest. Certainly don't try restricting the flow to the washing machine by throttling the main stop cock or every outlet in the house will suffer.
Agree with Andy, fit one of these http://www.screwfix.com/p/prv-with-gauge-15-x-22mm/41943 to at least reduce the pressure. :y