Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 10 March 2013, 10:08:18
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HS2's £33bn budget already derailed before a track is laid...
The former cabinet minister Cheryl Gillan, whose constituency of Chesham and Amersham will be heavily affected by the line, has uncovered that more than £250m has already been spent on contracts for engineers, PR firms, property agents and market research outfits.
Can't recall Brunel using PR firms and market researchers. ;) ;D ;D
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-hs2s-33bn-budget-already-derailed-before-a-track-is-laid-8527920.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-hs2s-33bn-budget-already-derailed-before-a-track-is-laid-8527920.html)
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Different times though, then there was no such thing as H&S, along with the ability of women to vote.
I don't see the problem, that's not a lot of money. Sky spends that every 4 months on marketing alone.....
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
So far it's what 0.8% of the budget? Any other project they would spend a hell of a lot more than that.
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
So far it's what 0.8% of the budget? Any other project they would spend a hell of a lot more than that.
HS2 will massively overspend... ...if it goes ahead. I'm still not convinced that it will, although with Cable turning more towards Labour's "borrow, borrow, borrow" mentality, this is just the sort of project that the Tories need to appease their LD coalition partners.
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HS2's £33bn budget already derailed before a track is laid...
The former cabinet minister Cheryl Gillan, whose constituency of Chesham and Amersham will be heavily affected by the line, has uncovered that more than £250m has already been spent on contracts for engineers, PR firms, property agents and market research outfits.
Can't recall Brunel using PR firms and market researchers. ;) ;D ;D
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-hs2s-33bn-budget-already-derailed-before-a-track-is-laid-8527920.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-hs2s-33bn-budget-already-derailed-before-a-track-is-laid-8527920.html)
Different days, different ways! :D ;)
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
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You obviously have not been watching the documentary series The Railway: Keeping it on track on BBC2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/07/the-railway-keeping-britain-on-track.html
It totally supports my argument that the current system cannot cope with the massive increase in passenger numbers and how new line expansion is essential, especially HS2 in full. Enormous amounts of money are already being pumped into the current railway system just to stand still with now a record of 1.5 billion journeys being made by passengers, So much more is going to be necessary by 2050. The system is creaking under the demands made upon it, and the series has highlighted how one incident on the line, such as a suicide, results in up to 90 trains delayed, and hundreds of thousands of passengers suffering because their is no spare capacity.
Let's build HS2 as quickly as possible, plus HS3, HS4,.........etc,etc. We must have a new system not one using so much that dates to the Victorian age. ;)
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
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You obviously have not been watching the documentary series The Railway: Keeping it on track on BBC2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/07/the-railway-keeping-britain-on-track.html
It totally supports my argument that the current system cannot cope with the massive increase in passenger numbers and how new line expansion is essential, especially HS2 in full. Enormous amounts of money are already being pumped into the current railway system just to stand still with now a record of 1.5 billion journeys being made by passengers, So much more is going to be necessary by 2050. The system is creaking under the demands made upon it, and the series has highlighted how one incident on the line, such as a suicide, results in up to 90 trains delayed, and hundreds of thousands of passengers suffering because their is no spare capacity.
Let's build HS2 as quickly as possible, plus HS3, HS4,.........etc,etc. We must have a new system not one using so much that dates to the Victorian age. ;)
Should be 400mph+ Maglev, like Japan are building. It has a massive advantage of not needing constant track maintenance and would spread the London wealth bubble to new parts of the country as you could commute from most parts.
Weather we like it or not super-cities like London are the most successful at wealth creation as you get many like minded people working in close proximity to each other. You can use all the arguments you want over using modern communications instead but in reality it doesn't work like that. Much business is done informally in local bars, cafes, coffee shops and restaurants that just wouldn't happen as people don't know you exist and also because in close communities you get personal recommendations etc.
It is the same with airport hubs, you can talk about having regional airports and hubs instead, but airlines like major hubs as they do more profitable business at them. They are also normally adjacent to super-cities for business travellers as they account for the most profitable revenue streams.
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
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You obviously have not been watching the documentary series The Railway: Keeping it on track on BBC2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/07/the-railway-keeping-britain-on-track.html
It totally supports my argument that the current system cannot cope with the massive increase in passenger numbers and how new line expansion is essential, especially HS2 in full. Enormous amounts of money are already being pumped into the current railway system just to stand still with now a record of 1.5 billion journeys being made by passengers, So much more is going to be necessary by 2050. The system is creaking under the demands made upon it, and the series has highlighted how one incident on the line, such as a suicide, results in up to 90 trains delayed, and hundreds of thousands of passengers suffering because their is no spare capacity.
Let's build HS2 as quickly as possible, plus HS3, HS4,.........etc,etc. We must have a new system not one using so much that dates to the Victorian age. ;)
Unless I am very much mistaken, HS2 will have no real impact upon the lack of commuter capacity to which you refer Lizzie. As far as I can see it will take a huge amount of money and destruction of the environment, to transport the very rich (I would imagine the fares will be colossal) to the North...in less time...sometime in the 2020s. The term "white elephant" springs to mind. ;)
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Should be 400mph+ Maglev, like Japan are building.
Yes, I agree that would better, Rods. It could also be built adjacent to the M1/M6, thus protecting the countryside. Probably cheaper in the long run, too. :y
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Should be 400mph+ Maglev, like Japan are building.
Yes, I agree that would better, Rods. It could also be built adjacent to the M1/M6, thus protecting the countryside. Probably cheaper in the long run, too. :y
Over would be better. Then they could install pantographs for the electric car of the future - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_cars . The rail bed would create a nice dry environment for the cars below.!!
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
#
You obviously have not been watching the documentary series The Railway: Keeping it on track on BBC2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/07/the-railway-keeping-britain-on-track.html
It totally supports my argument that the current system cannot cope with the massive increase in passenger numbers and how new line expansion is essential, especially HS2 in full. Enormous amounts of money are already being pumped into the current railway system just to stand still with now a record of 1.5 billion journeys being made by passengers, So much more is going to be necessary by 2050. The system is creaking under the demands made upon it, and the series has highlighted how one incident on the line, such as a suicide, results in up to 90 trains delayed, and hundreds of thousands of passengers suffering because their is no spare capacity.
Let's build HS2 as quickly as possible, plus HS3, HS4,.........etc,etc. We must have a new system not one using so much that dates to the Victorian age. ;)
Unless I am very much mistaken, HS2 will have no real impact upon the lack of commuter capacity to which you refer Lizzie. As far as I can see it will take a huge amount of money and destruction of the environment, to transport the very rich (I would imagine the fares will be colossal) to the North...in less time...sometime in the 2020s. The term "white elephant" springs to mind. ;)
"Commuter capacity" now covers a far greater area of the country than even 50 years ago. Daily commutes from Midland and even Northern areas to London is far more common than ever before. Many select taking the train to work ion jobs well away from where they live due to the pattern of commerce going away from more "local" situations, like Tonbridge to London or Beaconsfield to London. It is more likely now to be Peterborough to London or Leeds to London for a growing number. By 2050 we need to be ready to cope with an ever growing need to commute further and further. That is what HS2 will provide in addition to everything else; fast commuting from / to the North to London, hopefully bringing more job opportunities and wealth to the Northern areas of England at least. ;)
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They clearly haven't spent enough on the marketting/PR, as the majority still cannot see any benefit.
#
You obviously have not been watching the documentary series The Railway: Keeping it on track on BBC2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/07/the-railway-keeping-britain-on-track.html
It totally supports my argument that the current system cannot cope with the massive increase in passenger numbers and how new line expansion is essential, especially HS2 in full. Enormous amounts of money are already being pumped into the current railway system just to stand still with now a record of 1.5 billion journeys being made by passengers, So much more is going to be necessary by 2050. The system is creaking under the demands made upon it, and the series has highlighted how one incident on the line, such as a suicide, results in up to 90 trains delayed, and hundreds of thousands of passengers suffering because their is no spare capacity.
Let's build HS2 as quickly as possible, plus HS3, HS4,.........etc,etc. We must have a new system not one using so much that dates to the Victorian age. ;)
Should be 400mph+ Maglev, like Japan are building. It has a massive advantage of not needing constant track maintenance and would spread the London wealth bubble to new parts of the country as you could commute from most parts.
Weather we like it or not super-cities like London are the most successful at wealth creation as you get many like minded people working in close proximity to each other. You can use all the arguments you want over using modern communications instead but in reality it doesn't work like that. Much business is done informally in local bars, cafes, coffee shops and restaurants that just wouldn't happen as people don't know you exist and also because in close communities you get personal recommendations etc.
It is the same with airport hubs, you can talk about having regional airports and hubs instead, but airlines like major hubs as they do more profitable business at them. They are also normally adjacent to super-cities for business travellers as they account for the most profitable revenue streams.
Maglav is very expensive to build and so far few are in use, with few being developed due to that. Indeed Japanese railways still have a largely traditional network with of course very high speed trains. In Britain an HS2 line built to Maglav specifications would be hugely more expensive than the traditional line proposed. It is simply not an option. ;)
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Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).
For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios. ;D ;D
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Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).
For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios. ;D ;D
I agree with that entirely Varche! :y :y :y :y
Britain should never have stopped serious development of new trains and locomotives. To get that step ahead as we used to enjoy we do need railway engineers with great vision, backed up by a government determined to provide the back up to finance again the development and production of World beating trains to be used on 21st century infrasture. The spirit of Swindon, Crewe, Eastleigh and Doncaster needs to return with real competition to build these trains and locomotives and not leave the field wide open to the likes of Siemens and Hitachi! :o :o :(
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Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).
For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios. ;D ;D
The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems. :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev)
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Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).
For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios. ;D ;D
The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems. :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev)
Indeed Nick :y :y
Also to emphasis is that huge cost I touched on previously, which I understand is around £160 Million per mile to construct a full sized line. It was considered to be an option for HS2, but at that cost it is not viable. The effects of high levels of electro magnetism is also of great concern on people, their possessions like pace makers, credit cards and mobile electronic devices. Remember there is still uncertainty about the effects of high voltage power lines near homes and people, let alone massive electro magnetism from massive coils of copper wire along a Maglev track. ;)
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HS2 has no demographic.
Commuters who have to use it won't use it on cost (ignore HS2 Ltd's view that it will cost no more, if you went to their roadshows, they will admit to making up figures to push this through). It doesn't start or stop anywhere useful - the vast majority will find it quicker to use existing mainline services, due to local stations.
Not only is it a burden to construct - destroying parts of the Chilterns in doing that - but it will be a burden on the tax payer to run. To build, it will be, assuming its on budget (it won't be), £1500 for everyone working, yet only the rich few will be able to use it... ...until its shut down, anyway. Then we all have to pay for running it, optimistically estimated at needing 60% subsidisation.
HS1 is hardly a success, is it?
I think, given the current financial mess, building this purely for bragging rights, is wrong.
More useful would be a useful East-West link, parts of which have been given the go-ahead. Not high speed, as that is useless. Something that people on-route can use.
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Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).
For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios. ;D ;D
The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems. :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev)
Indeed Nick :y :y
Also to emphasis is that huge cost I touched on previously, which I understand is around £160 Million per mile to construct a full sized line. It was considered to be an option for HS2, but at that cost it is not viable. The effects of high levels of electro magnetism is also of great concern on people, their possessions like pace makers, credit cards and mobile electronic devices. Remember there is still uncertainty about the effects of high voltage power lines near homes and people, let alone massive electro magnetism from massive coils of copper wire along a Maglev track. ;)
This is why the UK is in the global slow lane, everybody likes to say why it is impossible to do, except the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, just get on and do it. Government and UK citizens understand Victorian railways, so it must be the way to go! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Due to magnetic fields, costs etc., etc., it is impossible, just please, please tell the Chinese this as their Shaghai operational high speed Maglev train in daily service must be a figment of their imagination and it obviously was much too costly at $1.2bn for 30.5km of dual track with a top speed of 311mph and top operational speed of 268mph. At these prices London to Birmingham at 119 miles long would cost $7.51bn or £5bn even allowing for inflation it should only cost £10bn. This must have the Chinese with our £32bn investment in slow, costly to run, expensive to maintain, noisy Victorian technology doing this. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
No wonder this country is a 21st century laughing stock (which according to reports over the last few day includes our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, so much for the best armed forces in the world). With the same attitudes 200 years a go our industrial revolution and Victorian era would never have happened. :( :( :( :(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Maglev_Train (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Maglev_Train)
http://kojects.com/2012/01/28/maglev-at-incheon-international-airport-to-be-completed-this-year/ (http://kojects.com/2012/01/28/maglev-at-incheon-international-airport-to-be-completed-this-year/)
But the Chinese don't want to stop there, they are investing heavily in this technology, where they are a large country, including up to 600mph vacuum tube versions, where it uses electricity and not fossil fuels and uses 25% of the energy of an aircraft and where it is enclosed it is not affected by extreme weather.
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/china-developing-600-mph-airless-maglev-high-speed-train/9594 (http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/china-developing-600-mph-airless-maglev-high-speed-train/9594)
When HS2 is completed you expect to see a train when there is a snow flake on the line. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).
For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios. ;D ;D
The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems. :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev)
Indeed Nick :y :y
Also to emphasis is that huge cost I touched on previously, which I understand is around £160 Million per mile to construct a full sized line. It was considered to be an option for HS2, but at that cost it is not viable. The effects of high levels of electro magnetism is also of great concern on people, their possessions like pace makers, credit cards and mobile electronic devices. Remember there is still uncertainty about the effects of high voltage power lines near homes and people, let alone massive electro magnetism from massive coils of copper wire along a Maglev track. ;)
This is why the UK is in the global slow lane, everybody likes to say why it is impossible to do, except the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, just get on and do it. Government and UK citizens understand Victorian railways, so it must be the way to go! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Due to magnetic fields, costs etc., etc., it is impossible, just please, please tell the Chinese this as their Shaghai operational high speed Maglev train in daily service must be a figment of their imagination and it obviously was much too costly at $1.2bn for 30.5km of dual track with a top speed of 311mph and top operational speed of 268mph. At these prices London to Birmingham at 119 miles long would cost $7.51bn or £5bn even allowing for inflation it should only cost £10bn. This must have the Chinese with our £32bn investment in slow, costly to run, expensive to maintain, noisy Victorian technology doing this. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://kojects.com/2012/01/28/maglev-at-incheon-international-airport-to-be-completed-this-year/ (http://kojects.com/2012/01/28/maglev-at-incheon-international-airport-to-be-completed-this-year/)
But the Chinese don't want to stop there, they are investing heavily in this technology, where they are a large country, including up to 600mph vacuum tube versions, where it uses electricity and not fossil fuels and uses 25% of the energy of an aircraft and where it is enclosed it is not affected by extreme weather.
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/china-developing-600-mph-airless-maglev-high-speed-train/9594 (http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/china-developing-600-mph-airless-maglev-high-speed-train/9594)
Yes Rods2, China is now a very rich and huge country that can develop railways from scratch without the problems the UK has with many densely populated areas and an active NIMBY group always active to stop progress.
We know the Shanghai Maglev line is no more than a linking line to an international airport, of just 18.6 miles long. It is also running at just 20% capacity and is considered a "white elephant".
There is absolutely no reason why new 21st technology cannot be built on top, and in addition to, Victorian infrasture. The basic railway technology is a proven system and can be used very successfully to give rapid mass transport for hundreds of thousands across a relatively small country. If the powers to be decided to rip up all of the existing system in favour of building a Maglav network can you imagine the outcry over no trains to use, the expense, and the concerns over using electro magnetic power near people (there are still concerns over that that the Chinese are ignoring as they can)? It will not happen due mainly of course to the cost.
In addition I envisage eventually high speed railway links to all European systems and for that to happen all national networks must continue to use a standard gauge (4' 8 1/2" ) of two steel track design. It is clear that even the French have decided not to invest in Maglev as they know the importance of linking an international system, which includes the movement of freight as currently transpires through our Chunnel to link all parts of the UK network. Again, no one can afford to develop long distance Maglev lines especially as there is no prospect of hauling freight on them, which there is on HS1 & HS2 if so wished, which I predict will be a future development for commercial reasons; i.e. to pay for the new lines!!.
To repeat there is nothing wrong with developing an old technology and using the basic elements which the Victorians did from basic mine rail and simple wagonway networks, let alone an actual advanced version of a "railway" in ancient Babylon during 2,245 BC! ;)
No, due to limited resource and the practicalities I have mentioned the UK must press ahead with the planned railway expansion which will survive until we can find a way of using teleporting!! :D :D :D :y
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So another argument is that HS2 will "increase commuter capacity" ::) ::) Humm well it will be like Concorde across to the states, yes it increases transatlantic capacity, but at what cost to the customer? Lets say HS2 is built now & you live in Birmingham, its same story if you live in Manchester or whatever further up line. Say that's also built.
Standard journey time is 1hr 24 mins to London from Birmingham, on West Coast. Chiltern's new mainline services do one in 90mins, which is non-stop.
Virgin also do a quicker 1:12 morning commuter special service, which is their quickest. HS2's time will be? 49 mins. :o
So it saves a whole 23 mins :o
/engage sarcastic voice
woooow
/disengage sarcastic voice
Its going to be a fact, that the fare price will be significantly higher than West Coast or Chiltern. At least 25/30%, HS1 proved this, as their fare prices are higher than standard services and high speed services have been reduced since it was completed.
Lets look at it from other foot, you commute to London for your job, so you are a "commuter". Would you pay £600 a month to get to work, or by paying £480 a month? I could save £120 per month, by getting up 20 mins earlier? For as single man thats a no brainer, also if your married with kids, thats a considerable amount of extra spending cash.
I used to commute from Bicester to London every day via train for several years, in the end (2009) It cost £360 for the ticket, £420 if I wanted tubes zones and £480 with car parking included.
I dropped tube and cycled to save tube fares, as do many others. People will not pay the premium to commute on HS2, only the few which are allowed to expense. Which will basically be first class customers from current services...
All we will have is a slightly faster service, with some very empty trains....
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Money pit , so let the rich club pay for it as they will be the only ones able to afford to pay the fares , should be chocco block with banker's ::) ;D
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So another argument is that HS2 will "increase commuter capacity" ::) ::) Humm well it will be like Concorde across to the states, yes it increases transatlantic capacity, but at what cost to the customer? Lets say HS2 is built now & you live in Birmingham, its same story if you live in Manchester or whatever further up line. Say that's also built.
Standard journey time is 1hr 24 mins to London from Birmingham, on West Coast. Chiltern's new mainline services do one in 90mins, which is non-stop.
Virgin also do a quicker 1:12 morning commuter special service, which is their quickest. HS2's time will be? 49 mins. :o
So it saves a whole 23 mins :o
/engage sarcastic voice
woooow
/disengage sarcastic voice
Its going to be a fact, that the fare price will be significantly higher than West Coast or Chiltern. At least 25/30%, HS1 proved this, as their fare prices are higher than standard services and high speed services have been reduced since it was completed.
Lets look at it from other foot, you commute to London for your job, so you are a "commuter". Would you pay £600 a month to get to work, or by paying £480 a month? I could save £120 per month, by getting up 20 mins earlier? For as single man thats a no brainer, also if your married with kids, thats a considerable amount of extra spending cash.
I used to commute from Bicester to London every day via train for several years, in the end (2009) It cost £360 for the ticket, £420 if I wanted tubes zones and £480 with car parking included.
I dropped tube and cycled to save tube fares, as do many others. People will not pay the premium to commute on HS2, only the few which are allowed to expense. Which will basically be first class customers from current services...
All we will have is a slightly faster service, with some very empty trains....
For almost two years I commuted daily from Banbury to Marylebone, then tube / bus to the Old Kent Road, and back at the end of a long days business. I was more than happy to pay the fare and travel in comfort on Chiltern Railways, with refreshments. I did have to use my car on more than one occasion and it was a nightmare, even though I had a free reserved parking space when I arrived at work.
Once a travel network is in place, with the latest developments in rail travel, customers / passengers will use it. When the railways have developed up from the earlier 'standards' in the past, passengers have grasped the new service.
As I continue to state, the current railway system cannot cope and desperately requires upgrading with greater capacity given. Failure to do so now will create havoc in 2025 on top of the chaos often experienced now, and standstill by 2050. ;)
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Once a travel network is in place, with the latest developments in rail travel, customers / passengers will use it. When the
Really? What like HS1? ::)
http://metro.co.uk/2010/05/04/140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints-283302/ (http://metro.co.uk/2010/05/04/140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints-283302/)
The size of trains on a high-speed rail link have been cut in half after just four months because they are not popular enough.
"But the service has proved unpopular with some passengers who say the trains are ‘uncomfortable’, with fares costing one-third more than on normal trains."
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So tickets cost 33% more, not as comfy, but faster. I think you are kidding yourself if you think average commuter will pay at least £150 every month, just for an extra 20 mins in bed ;)
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Once a travel network is in place, with the latest developments in rail travel, customers / passengers will use it. When the
Really? What like HS1? ::)
http://metro.co.uk/2010/05/04/140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints-283302/ (http://metro.co.uk/2010/05/04/140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints-283302/)
The size of trains on a high-speed rail link have been cut in half after just four months because they are not popular enough.
"But the service has proved unpopular with some passengers who say the trains are ‘uncomfortable’, with fares costing one-third more than on normal trains."
In answer please note the results for the Chunnel linking in to the HS1:
"Eurotunnel records 14% jump in revenue in 2012"
"CHANNEL Tunnel operator Eurotunnel says it had a record year in 2012 with a 14% increase in turnover to €993.1m. Passenger traffic breached the 300 million mark in October 2012 since the tunnel opened in 1994."
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/eurotunnel-records-14-jump-in-revenue-in-2012.html
and
http://www.link2portal.com/eurotunnel-records-promising-half-year-results-expresses-concern-over-rail-freight-levy
As for the South Eastern Railway Javelin services your links date back to 2010! It is still early days and the HS Javelin service is developing. There is as yet no full information available, but this is:
"Southeastern has announced 25 million domestic passenger journeys have been made on High Speed 1 between London and Kent since the launch of the service. This month marks three years since the introduction of the UK’s first domestic high speed service which has achieved some of the best records in punctuality and customer satisfaction in the country."
"The service was launched in December 2009 with 7.2 million passenger journeys in its first year. Journeys grew to around 8.2 million in the second year, and it now transports over 9 million people a year."
“The service has made the connection between Kent and London far more accessible than ever before and has slashed journey times. It’s also opened the county up to the rest of the UK; we’ve seen around 25 percent more journeys to Kent from beyond London than there were prior to the service."
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/mobile/news/25-million-high-speed-journeys-in-three-years/
and on the subject of the London Olympics:
"Some 30,000 people used the high speed service to get from St Pancras to the Olympic Park before 10am on one of the busiest days of the whole of the London 2012 Games."
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/javelin-service-sees-highest-numbers-during-london-2012/
Progress never is achieved without pain and further development of the complete HS service will bring healthy results in the future as a wonderful mover of passengers and freight. Once again it will take time as did the motor car and aeroplane, both dismissed as "novelties" in the past.
:) :)
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Forget the Olympics, that was a 1 month wonder which will never been seen again in our life time.
What on earth does the Channel Tunnel have to do with your argument for commuter traffic? ??? - Why the sudden lean off into something completely irrelevance to what's being discussed?
Passenger numbers low (2012) story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17525872 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17525872)
Low numbers & 20% over-spend: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/mar/28/hs1-passenger-forecasts-optimistic-nao (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/mar/28/hs1-passenger-forecasts-optimistic-nao)
5Bn debt from HS1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18733308 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18733308)
We have all this proof that High Speed expensive travel simply will not work here, no one will pay the 30% premium for it and it will cost way more than we expect.
HS1 proves this, yet we still have people thinking HS2 is will resolve commuter problems ::)
Cars and Aeroplanes? Concord was a fanatic technical achievement, but thanks to internet and video-conference calls there is now no need to get across the Atlantic in 3 hours. People would rather take 7 hours & pay a lot less, see the similarity here? ;)
So the commute wants to save money, family taking kids out will be quite happy to take just 20 mins longer as money saved would probably pay for dinner & a hotel!
Remind me, who will actually use this service?
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Forget the Olympics, that was a 1 month wonder which will never been seen again in our life time.
What on earth does the Channel Tunnel have to do with your argument for commuter traffic? ??? - Why the sudden lean off into something completely irrelevance to what's being discussed?
Passenger numbers low (2012) story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17525872 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17525872)
Low numbers & 20% over-spend: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/mar/28/hs1-passenger-forecasts-optimistic-nao (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/mar/28/hs1-passenger-forecasts-optimistic-nao)
5Bn debt from HS1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18733308 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18733308)
We have all this proof that High Speed expensive travel simply will not work here, no one will pay the 30% premium for it and it will cost way more than we expect.
HS1 proves this, yet we still have people thinking HS2 is will resolve commuter problems ::)
Cars and Aeroplanes? Concord was a fanatic technical achievement, but thanks to internet and video-conference calls there is now no need to get across the Atlantic in 3 hours. People would rather take 7 hours & pay a lot less, see the similarity here? ;)
So the commute wants to save money, family taking kids out will be quite happy to take just 20 mins longer as money saved would probably pay for dinner & a hotel!
Remind me, who will actually use this service?
Hang on Tunnie! Calm down! :o :o :o :o :o
YOU mentioned HS1 and you must know that is completely linked to the Chunnel and the traffic from Europe!! ::) ::) ::) That is why I mention the Chunnel and it's business traffic; it is NOT unconnected, or did you think it was? ::) ::)
Commuter traffic can, and is affected by long distance commute and if you had read my original post that explained that type of travel and how it has evolved you will understand what I mean, even if you do not agree with it. Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well. As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe. Is that hard to understand?
On cars and planes you have taken my reference completely away from what I meant; every new or developing technology takes it's time to be accepted and taken on by the masses. But you know I meant that! ::) ::)
Why so much hostility towards a straight forward argument in favour of railway improvements and upgrading to 21st century travel on the system away from the aeroplane? It is my opinion; oh, and the opinion of numerous organisations, business communities, and currently the government to create jobs, a major civil engineering project after Crosslink is completed, and advanced distribution of business opportunities, and therefore wealth, for the Northern half of the country. What is really wrong with that project, that objective, that will give the country advanced passenger capacity for the future?
Perhaps on a car Forum there is the blinkered thought that thousands of more miles of motorways should be built. Forget that thought, it cannot now happen, with the age of the car as we know it today finishing by 2050.
That is my opinion and I am entitled to it as you are to yours Tunnie, without the raising of 'voices'. ::) ::) :)
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Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well. As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe. Is that hard to understand?
Exactly my point, people who can expense. In terms of numbers, actually very low in grand scheme of things.
Average developer, manager ect, cannot expense, so won't pay it.
All this talk of boosting traffic to Europe and other stuff, you don't seriously believe it do you? HS2 is not going to add sudden new abilities that have never been seen before.
If you live in Birmingham you can take West Coast to London, then switch to Paris line already, all HS2 does is save you 20 mins.
20 mins at a cost of billions :o
Just wake up earlier ::)
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I think its a case of ............. the other kids in the playground have one so we should have one too ;)
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Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well. As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe. Is that hard to understand?
Exactly my point, people who can expense. In terms of numbers, actually very low in grand scheme of things.
Average developer, manager ect, cannot expense, so won't pay it.
All this talk of boosting traffic to Europe and other stuff, you don't seriously believe it do you? HS2 is not going to add sudden new abilities that have never been seen before.
If you live in Birmingham you can take West Coast to London, then switch to Paris line already, all HS2 does is save you 20 mins.
20 mins at a cost of billions :o
Just wake up earlier ::)
It is far more than that Tunnie; that is just one part of the overall vision. The domestic services are an even more important element. Have you seen how overcrowded our trains are during peak times that go on and on? That just cannot continue. Once people did not want to travel by the new unknown, and apparently dangerous trains, preferring to stay travelling on stage coaches. That soon changed as time saved was proved and safety was established relative to the dangerous stage coach travel and the cost was accepted. The advantages of HS lines will become the norm and all arguments against them read about in history books with historians trying to establish what all the fuss was about. :D :D :D ;) ;)
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Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well. As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe. Is that hard to understand?
Exactly my point, people who can expense. In terms of numbers, actually very low in grand scheme of things.
Average developer, manager ect, cannot expense, so won't pay it.
All this talk of boosting traffic to Europe and other stuff, you don't seriously believe it do you? HS2 is not going to add sudden new abilities that have never been seen before.
If you live in Birmingham you can take West Coast to London, then switch to Paris line already, all HS2 does is save you 20 mins.
20 mins at a cost of billions :o
Just wake up earlier ::)
It is far more than that Tunnie; that is just one part of the overall vision. The domestic services are an even more important element. Have you seen how overcrowded our trains are during peak times that go on and on? That just cannot continue. Once people did not want to travel by the new unknown, and apparently dangerous trains, preferring to stay travelling on stage coaches. That soon changed as time saved was proved and safety was established relative to the dangerous stage coach travel and the cost was accepted. The advantages of HS lines will become the norm and all arguments against them read about in history books with historians trying to establish what all the fuss was about. :D :D :D ;) ;)
Oh, and your concern over business users the only ones using these HS trains:
Well, Concorde, that many on here praise so much, survived initially on business travel, and then celeb traffic. In fact it was the decline of business traffic that finally killed off the Concorde dream sadly due to safety concerns and increased costs.
The trains originally relied on high paying customers to get the services going, with freight even more important to their success. "Commoners" travelling then developed with eventually far better accommodation provided for them away from mere cattle trucks.
What am I saying? I am saying what I have said before. The new HS business will take time to develop and in reality it is being built for 2025 onwards, although many recognise we need it now in addition to the billions being spent already on the existing system. :D :D :y
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Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well. As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe. Is that hard to understand?
Exactly my point, people who can expense. In terms of numbers, actually very low in grand scheme of things.
Average developer, manager ect, cannot expense, so won't pay it.
All this talk of boosting traffic to Europe and other stuff, you don't seriously believe it do you? HS2 is not going to add sudden new abilities that have never been seen before.
If you live in Birmingham you can take West Coast to London, then switch to Paris line already, all HS2 does is save you 20 mins.
20 mins at a cost of billions :o
Just wake up earlier ::)
It is far more than that Tunnie; that is just one part of the overall vision. The domestic services are an even more important element. Have you seen how overcrowded our trains are during peak times that go on and on? That just cannot continue. Once people did not want to travel by the new unknown, and apparently dangerous trains, preferring to stay travelling on stage coaches. That soon changed as time saved was proved and safety was established relative to the dangerous stage coach travel and the cost was accepted. The advantages of HS lines will become the norm and all arguments against them read about in history books with historians trying to establish what all the fuss was about. :D :D :D ;) ;)
Yeah? I always got a seat when commuting. Without fail, very few people standing.
Travel outside commuter times & the train is practically empty.
Hopefully it will get canned, Ealing Council won't be letting it happen unless they tunnel under hanger lane... which is not on the current plan
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From Reading's MP John Redwood daily diary today he says:
"Some believe that HS2 is a crucial economic project that can open up business to the North. However the business plans show it will be heavily loss making and struggle to attract enough passengers. It is twentieth century technology, when China is pressing on with maglev, and the US with its digital revolution allowing good communcations from remote locations."
He also thinks it will be a loss making white elephant!
At 50 minutes it would just about put Birmingham in commuter range, but with a Maglev line running at Shanghai speed it would take under 30 minutes, so you would save a hour, it would also mean the cities further north would be within commuter distance, working on the accepted maximum of one hour each way.
With Maglev technology you running costs are much, much lower, so it would make it more likely to be affordable, where as long distance Victorian style transport we know isn't. I would always fly up to Manchester, Edinburgh etc as it is cheaper and quicker, than use this old (from experience) unreliable technology.
Very little freight goes by rail as it is too expensive due to the much higher loading on the rails. So each loaded freight train uses rail life up for about 10 passenger trains. This is just one of the limitations of soon to be obsolete in many forward looking Asian countries Victorian technology.
Still the 21st century will belong to Asia with the US still in there, but Western Europe will be a 3rd world country under a nasty Brussels based dictatorship with largely equal levels of misery and starvation, apart for the elite!
If you have to commute regularly to Paris for meetings the only sensible way is too fly as the Eurostar is too slow to do that in one day, where as with flying you can. How do I know, because at one time I had to do it on a regular basis, so call it practical experience. From Birmingham, you would use one of the Midland's airports and never consider Eurostar for a one day meeting.
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Birmingham has a great little airport, FatherT he uses it weekly. :)
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So the commuter trains are packed at the moment........so how will high speed unpack them. The same commuters will still pack the commuter trains for one obvious reason.....they have to get to London to catch a high speed thing in the first place.
So....if I, living in wycombe want to get to Birmingham quicker....I catch an earlier train!!!!! HS2 will only be used by people south of London ;)
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Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well. As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe. Is that hard to understand?
Exactly my point, people who can expense. In terms of numbers, actually very low in grand scheme of things.
Average developer, manager ect, cannot expense, so won't pay it.
All this talk of boosting traffic to Europe and other stuff, you don't seriously believe it do you? HS2 is not going to add sudden new abilities that have never been seen before.
If you live in Birmingham you can take West Coast to London, then switch to Paris line already, all HS2 does is save you 20 mins.
20 mins at a cost of billions :o
Just wake up earlier ::)
It is far more than that Tunnie; that is just one part of the overall vision. The domestic services are an even more important element. Have you seen how overcrowded our trains are during peak times that go on and on? That just cannot continue. Once people did not want to travel by the new unknown, and apparently dangerous trains, preferring to stay travelling on stage coaches. That soon changed as time saved was proved and safety was established relative to the dangerous stage coach travel and the cost was accepted. The advantages of HS lines will become the norm and all arguments against them read about in history books with historians trying to establish what all the fuss was about. :D :D :D ;) ;)
Yeah? I always got a seat when commuting. Without fail, very few people standing.
Travel outside commuter times & the train is practically empty.
Hopefully it will get canned, Ealing Council won't be letting it happen unless they tunnel under hanger lane... which is not on the current plan
Indeed trains can be quite empty at out of peak hours. However hundreds of thousands do not have that luxury and if you have ever travelled on an over crowded commuter train as I did constantly, and the situation is even worse now, you would not argue against addition, fast, capacity. ;) ;)
Once again I say: WE are talking about the years from 2020 to 2050, not tomorrow.
As for Maglev, I stand by my original comments about cost of construction and add how do you think the NIMBY lobby would welcome a line standing well above the ground, on concrete stilts across their wonderful countryside. So not only on cost grounds there is also the environmental consideration that so many on here seem to worry about in other debates! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Bottom line we cannot afford Maglev!
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From Reading's MP John Redwood daily diary today he says:
"Some believe that HS2 is a crucial economic project that can open up business to the North. However the business plans show it will be heavily loss making and struggle to attract enough passengers. It is twentieth century technology, when China is pressing on with maglev, and the US with its digital revolution allowing good communcations from remote locations."
He also thinks it will be a loss making white elephant!
Very little freight goes by rail as it is too expensive due to the much higher loading on the rails. So each loaded freight train uses rail life up for about 10 passenger trains. This is just one of the limitations of soon to be obsolete in many forward looking Asian countries Victorian technology.
John Redwood's opinion is just that: his opinion.
As for freight Rods2, if you were to see the very long container trains that I see regularly coming through Ashford to and from the continent perhaps you would be more convinced about rail freight. Admitted though it should be at even higher levels across the whole rail system. ;)
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From Reading's MP John Redwood daily diary today he says:
"Some believe that HS2 is a crucial economic project that can open up business to the North. However the business plans show it will be heavily loss making and struggle to attract enough passengers. It is twentieth century technology, when China is pressing on with maglev, and the US with its digital revolution allowing good communcations from remote locations."
He also thinks it will be a loss making white elephant!
Very little freight goes by rail as it is too expensive due to the much higher loading on the rails. So each loaded freight train uses rail life up for about 10 passenger trains. This is just one of the limitations of soon to be obsolete in many forward looking Asian countries Victorian technology.
John Redwood's opinion is just that: his opinion.
As for freight Rods2, if you were to see the very long container trains that I see regularly coming through Ashford to and from the continent perhaps you would be more convinced about rail freight. Admitted though it should be at even higher levels across the whole rail system. ;)
He is a lot more insightful than most, especially as an MP he has good access to information, that is not so readily available to us.
Very simple if HS2 is such a good profitable business idea, get private industry to build it, without subsidies as this is the real world test for it. This was how the Eurotunnel was build as Margret thatcher's bill to allow it to be build made it impossible for it to receive UK government subsidies, so when it got into difficulty, party due to more onerous H&S standards, they and their shareholders were on their own to sort it. Why should the overtaxed UK workforce subsidise such white elephants like this.
History may judge, not using Maglev differently, showing that for it to be a profitable line, that we could not afford, not to use this technology. When talking about environmental impact don't forget that where there in no physical contact, Maglev is much quieter.
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Birmingham has a great little airport, FatherT he uses it weekly. :)
Sadly, it will not be served by HS2. Nor will Heathrow. Or any other airport ::)
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Have you seen how overcrowded our trains are during peak times that go on and on? That just cannot continue.
As someone who regularly travels at peak times on both of the Birmingham to London lines, neither are what I would call "overcrowded". Its incredibly rare not to have a seat.
If it was to cure overcrowding, then why send it to Birmingham? Why not Bristol? Thats the busy line.
As terbert rightly says, it won't cure overcrowding, as everyone will use the local trains which stop more conveniently, thus making them, ironically, faster.
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Its a fact that everyone wants to go to Birmingham....not....thats why Chiltern rail are offering me seats to go to Birmingham from Wycombe out of peak hours for £6 each way....no thats not a mis-type...£6 each way. So much for crowded trains. So if the high speed train runs after 10.00am it will be economic ????? Yer' 'avin a larf ;D
Why would any right minded person, who has a station that connects to Birmingham, want to travel into London to get a non stop train. ??? Waste two/three hours getting to London, then cross London travel, plus expense, to save 20mins ???
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Its a fact that everyone wants to go to Birmingham....not....thats why Chiltern rail are offering me seats to go to Birmingham from Wycombe out of peak hours for £6 each way....no thats not a mis-type...£6 each way. So much for crowded trains. So if the high speed train runs after 10.00am it will be economic ????? Yer' 'avin a larf ;D
Why would any right minded person, who has a station that connects to Birmingham, want to travel into London to get a non stop train. ??? Waste two/three hours getting to London, then cross London travel, plus expense, to save 20mins ???
Precisely. Unless you happen to be where it starts, and want to go where it ends, its likely to be slower than the overpriced High Speed option.
So it will get built, and remain mostly empty. As tunnie rightly points out, HS1 proves there is no demand, despite what Network Rail and HS2 Ltd want to to believe.
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Its a fact that everyone wants to go to Birmingham....not....thats why Chiltern rail are offering me seats to go to Birmingham from Wycombe out of peak hours for £6 each way....no thats not a mis-type...£6 each way. So much for crowded trains. So if the high speed train runs after 10.00am it will be economic ????? Yer' 'avin a larf ;D
Why would any right minded person, who has a station that connects to Birmingham, want to travel into London to get a non stop train. ??? Waste two/three hours getting to London, then cross London travel, plus expense, to save 20mins ???
Precisely. Unless you happen to be where it starts, and want to go where it ends, its likely to be slower than the overpriced High Speed option.
So it will get built, and remain mostly empty. As tunnie rightly points out, HS1 proves there is no demand, despite what Network Rail and HS2 Ltd want to to believe.
Tell that TB to the Eurostar passengers, 9 million at last count, I see filling their trains going everyday through Ashford, and with many in this town who board it for destinations in Europe! ::) ::) ::) ::)
But, I suppose if you do not use it it must mean it is not needed! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Its a fact that everyone wants to go to Birmingham....not....thats why Chiltern rail are offering me seats to go to Birmingham from Wycombe out of peak hours for £6 each way....no thats not a mis-type...£6 each way. So much for crowded trains. So if the high speed train runs after 10.00am it will be economic ????? Yer' 'avin a larf ;D
Why would any right minded person, who has a station that connects to Birmingham, want to travel into London to get a non stop train. ??? Waste two/three hours getting to London, then cross London travel, plus expense, to save 20mins ???
Precisely. Unless you happen to be where it starts, and want to go where it ends, its likely to be slower than the overpriced High Speed option.
So it will get built, and remain mostly empty. As tunnie rightly points out, HS1 proves there is no demand, despite what Network Rail and HS2 Ltd want to to believe.
Tell that TB to the Eurostar passengers, 9 million at last count, I see filling their trains going everyday through Ashford, and with many in this town who board it for destinations in Europe! ::) ::) ::) ::)
But, I suppose if you do not use it it must mean it is not needed! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Thats still way too low, they predicted massive amounts of passengers to justify the cost, which has not happened. So its 5 billion in debt, now they want to do the same with HS2. (http://www.tamemymind.com/blog/images2007/smiley-bangheadonwall.gif)
When you are presented with 3 options to get to London, one costs £100, second £120, third £200. Only difference is one is 20 mins faster.
Which one would you pick? ::)
You can generally put customers for HS2 in 3 pots.
1) Tourist
2) Commuter
3) Business Travel
Looking at them again
1) Tourist - will not be interest in 20 minute saving, at cost of 30% premium. You generally want to travel for cheapest amount possible, then spend money at your destination or who you are with.
2) Commuter - Again want to get to work for cheapest amount, if that involves going in packed train, so be it. Don't kid yourself they would pay the premium (that they would for HS2), if they would, why does not everyone travel 1st class? That gets you a seat.... but does everyone pay it? Nope! (some do, but their numbers are very low)
3) Business Travel - The key here is business, those that are going for one off meeting, see a customer so on. And, are allowed to expense travel. If they get set amount, there again, cheapest wins. If they can expense 100%, then yes. But would companies wise to this extra cost, and say take West Coast? Quite possible.
So the bulk of people that would use this, are people who can expense, and want to go to Birmingham or London. and live in Birmingham or London. and don't travel on a daily basis.
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Its a fact that everyone wants to go to Birmingham....not....thats why Chiltern rail are offering me seats to go to Birmingham from Wycombe out of peak hours for £6 each way....no thats not a mis-type...£6 each way. So much for crowded trains. So if the high speed train runs after 10.00am it will be economic ????? Yer' 'avin a larf ;D
Why would any right minded person, who has a station that connects to Birmingham, want to travel into London to get a non stop train. ??? Waste two/three hours getting to London, then cross London travel, plus expense, to save 20mins ???
Precisely. Unless you happen to be where it starts, and want to go where it ends, its likely to be slower than the overpriced High Speed option.
So it will get built, and remain mostly empty. As tunnie rightly points out, HS1 proves there is no demand, despite what Network Rail and HS2 Ltd want to to believe.
Tell that TB to the Eurostar passengers, 9 million at last count, I see filling their trains going everyday through Ashford, and with many in this town who board it for destinations in Europe! ::) ::) ::) ::)
But, I suppose if you do not use it it must mean it is not needed! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Thats still way too low, they predicted massive amounts of passengers to justify the cost, which has not happened.
When you are presented with 3 options to get to London, one costs £100, second £120, third £200. Only difference is one is 20 mins faster.
Which one would you pick? ::)
You can generally put customers for HS2 in 3 pots.
1) Tourist
2) Commuter
3) Business Travel
Looking at them again
1) Tourist - will not be interest in 20 minute saving, at cost of 30% premium. You generally want to travel for cheapest amount possible, then spend money at your destination or who you are with.
2) Commuter - Again want to get to work for cheapest amount, if that involves going in packed train, so be it. Don't kid yourself they would pay the premium (that they would for HS2), if they would, why does not everyone travel 1st class? That gets you a seat.... but does everyone pay it? Nope! (some do, but their numbers are very low)
3) Business Travel - The key here is business, those that are going for one off meeting, see a customer so on. And, are allowed to expense travel. If they get set amount, there again, cheapest wins. If they can expense 100%, then yes. But would companies wise to this extra cost, and say take West Coast? Quite possible.
So the bulk of people that would use this, are people who can expense, and want to go to Birmingham or London. and live in Birmingham or London. and don't travel on a daily basis.
Yes, the numbers need to be higher, but are rising.
20 minutes is one way, X 2 each day, X say 320 (to allow for holidays etc) days = a lot of time away from your home and family. That is what various Javelin passengers down here have said when interviewed and they reckon the extra cost is worthwhile.
As for First Class; no it does not guarantee a seat as when the train becomes over crowded standard passengers spill into First Class; I know because I have often been one of those who had to.
In general it is all open to individual opinion, but as a past seasoned traveller by both car and train, I know what I prefer to use on long journeys to miss the dreadful road hold-ups that were frequently experienced by me. 5 miles in 1.5 hours was not unusual in South London, and I have experienced the same daily travelling from / to the Midlands, when, as I have stated before, I had to use the car on occasions. Being stuck successively in just one day when on national business duties with serious hold-ups on the A1, M69, M6 and M5 ( over 7 hours in all!!) almost made me give up my job / driving. That is why we must continue to dramatically improve train services, expand the system on many levels, including High Speed. It is far from perfect currently, but that boost the vision of creating a new system. :y :y
So many of you did not obviously see the documentary on BBC2, The Railway: Keeping Britain On Track http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/07/the-railway-keeping-britain-on-track.html as I posted at #6 in this thread. You would know that much is being done, but a lot more needs to be done! ;)
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I still cannot see the point of anyone north of London going south to catch a train going north. As I said previously...its the getting to the high speed train, that you all seem to be overlooking ??? Commuter trains into London will still be packed in the mornings.
So ....it looks like everybody south of London will be travelling to Birmingham daily, yes. Do you also realise, and I think TB will back me on this....the Chiltern line leaves London full....but disembarks most of its passengers at Bicester Village
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I still cannot see the point of anyone north of London going south to catch a train going north. As I said previously...its the getting to the high speed train, that you all seem to be overlooking ??? Commuter trains into London will still be packed in the mornings.
So ....it looks like everybody south of London will be travelling to Birmingham daily, yes. Do you also realise, and I think TB will back me on this....the Chiltern line leaves London full....but disembarks most of its passengers at Bicester Village
Yup, as I commuted from Bicester to London for years. Lot of cases Bicester was first stop, empties there from London.
I always, every single time without fail got a seat when leaving Bicester for London. They were practically when arriving... from Birmingham.
Other thing is its only people in and around Birmingham or London will use it, if I still commuted from Brackley I'd still use Chiltern, even though HS2 goes past around 2 miles from my parents house. ;D
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Its a fact that everyone wants to go to Birmingham....not....thats why Chiltern rail are offering me seats to go to Birmingham from Wycombe out of peak hours for £6 each way....no thats not a mis-type...£6 each way. So much for crowded trains. So if the high speed train runs after 10.00am it will be economic ????? Yer' 'avin a larf ;D
Why would any right minded person, who has a station that connects to Birmingham, want to travel into London to get a non stop train. ??? Waste two/three hours getting to London, then cross London travel, plus expense, to save 20mins ???
Precisely. Unless you happen to be where it starts, and want to go where it ends, its likely to be slower than the overpriced High Speed option.
So it will get built, and remain mostly empty. As tunnie rightly points out, HS1 proves there is no demand, despite what Network Rail and HS2 Ltd want to to believe.
Tell that TB to the Eurostar passengers, 9 million at last count, I see filling their trains going everyday through Ashford, and with many in this town who board it for destinations in Europe! ::) ::) ::) ::)
But, I suppose if you do not use it it must mean it is not needed! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Eurostar is slightly different in that its not really commuter. I've not been on it for a while, but it seems to be mostly tourists, and is a viable alternative to getting to Belgium and Paris.
HS2's business case is based on the time lost due to travel, so its clearly envisaged it will be for commuting and meetings.
Of course that last sentence highlights the major flaws - even if it is successful, which HS1 (the commuter service, forget Eurostar) suggests is unlikely, it will be empty outside of peak times. Also, it shows they assume all travel time is unproductive... ...now nobody gets their laptops out on trains, do they? Or read printed reports?
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I still cannot see the point of anyone north of London going south to catch a train going north. As I said previously...its the getting to the high speed train, that you all seem to be overlooking ??? Commuter trains into London will still be packed in the mornings.
So ....it looks like everybody south of London will be travelling to Birmingham daily, yes. Do you also realise, and I think TB will back me on this....the Chiltern line leaves London full....but disembarks most of its passengers at Bicester Village
Yup, as I commuted from Bicester to London for years. Lot of cases Bicester was first stop, empties there from London.
I always, every single time without fail got a seat when leaving Bicester for London. They were practically when arriving... from Birmingham.
Other thing is its only people in and around Birmingham or London will use it, if I still commuted from Brackley I'd still use Chiltern, even though HS2 goes past around 2 miles from my parents house. ;D
half a mile - its Brackley side of Radstone
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For a lot of business travellers, its going to the wrong part of London, Liverpool Street would probably have been a better station.