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[Nickbat]

Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).

For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios.

The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).

For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios.

The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev

Indeed Nick

Also to emphasis is that huge cost I touched on previously, which I understand is around £160 Million per mile to construct a full sized line.  It was considered to be an option for HS2, but at that cost it is not viable.  The effects of high levels of electro magnetism is also of great concern on people, their possessions like pace makers, credit cards and mobile electronic devices.  Remember there is still uncertainty about the effects of high voltage power lines near homes and people, let alone massive electro magnetism from massive coils of copper wire along a Maglev track.

[TheBoy]

HS2 has no demographic.

Commuters who have to use it won't use it on cost (ignore HS2 Ltd's view that it will cost no more, if you went to their roadshows, they will admit to making up figures to push this through). It doesn't start or stop anywhere useful - the vast majority will find it quicker to use existing mainline services, due to local stations.

Not only is it a burden to construct - destroying parts of the Chilterns in doing that - but it will be a burden on the tax payer to run. To build, it will be, assuming its on budget (it won't be), £1500 for everyone working, yet only the rich few will be able to use it...  ...until its shut down, anyway. Then we all have to pay for running it, optimistically estimated at needing 60% subsidisation.


HS1 is hardly a success, is it?


I think, given the current financial mess, building this purely for bragging rights, is wrong.

More useful would be a useful East-West link, parts of which have been given the go-ahead. Not high speed, as that is useless. Something that people on-route can use.

[Rods2]

Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).

For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios.

The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev

Indeed Nick

Also to emphasis is that huge cost I touched on previously, which I understand is around £160 Million per mile to construct a full sized line.  It was considered to be an option for HS2, but at that cost it is not viable.  The effects of high levels of electro magnetism is also of great concern on people, their possessions like pace makers, credit cards and mobile electronic devices.  Remember there is still uncertainty about the effects of high voltage power lines near homes and people, let alone massive electro magnetism from massive coils of copper wire along a Maglev track.

This is why the UK is in the global slow lane, everybody likes to say why it is impossible to do, except the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, just get on and do it. Government and UK citizens understand Victorian railways, so it must be the way to go! 

Due to magnetic fields, costs etc., etc., it is impossible, just please, please tell the Chinese this as their Shaghai operational high speed Maglev train in daily service must be a figment of their imagination and it obviously was much too costly at $1.2bn for 30.5km of dual track with a top speed of 311mph and top operational speed of 268mph. At these prices London to Birmingham at 119 miles long would cost $7.51bn or £5bn even allowing for inflation it should only cost £10bn. This must have the Chinese with our £32bn investment in slow, costly to run, expensive to maintain, noisy Victorian technology doing this. 

No wonder this country is a 21st century laughing stock (which according to reports over the last few day includes our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, so much for the best armed forces in the world). With the same attitudes 200 years a go our industrial revolution and Victorian era would never have happened. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Maglev_Train

http://kojects.com/2012/01/28/maglev-at-incheon-international-airport-to-be-completed-this-year/

But the Chinese don't want to stop there, they are investing heavily in this technology, where they are a large country, including up to 600mph vacuum tube versions, where it uses electricity and not fossil fuels and uses 25% of the energy of an aircraft and where it is enclosed it is not affected by extreme weather.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/china-developing-600-mph-airless-maglev-high-speed-train/9594

When HS2 is completed you expect to see a train when there is a snow flake on the line. 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Maybe it would be hugely expensive. I count the HS2 to be hugely expensive (for what it is).

For Britain to maintain the advantage it once had in the world we surely must do something a step ahead and not a step behind. We could then flog the technology to other countries. We need visionaries and not functionarios.

The first commercial maglev people mover was simply called "MAGLEV" and officially opened in 1984 near Birmingham, England. It operated on an elevated 600-metre (2,000 ft) section of monorail track between Birmingham International Airport and Birmingham International railway station, running at speeds up to 42 km/h (26 mph); the system was eventually closed in 1995 due to reliability problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev

Indeed Nick

Also to emphasis is that huge cost I touched on previously, which I understand is around £160 Million per mile to construct a full sized line.  It was considered to be an option for HS2, but at that cost it is not viable.  The effects of high levels of electro magnetism is also of great concern on people, their possessions like pace makers, credit cards and mobile electronic devices.  Remember there is still uncertainty about the effects of high voltage power lines near homes and people, let alone massive electro magnetism from massive coils of copper wire along a Maglev track.

This is why the UK is in the global slow lane, everybody likes to say why it is impossible to do, except the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, just get on and do it. Government and UK citizens understand Victorian railways, so it must be the way to go! 

Due to magnetic fields, costs etc., etc., it is impossible, just please, please tell the Chinese this as their Shaghai operational high speed Maglev train in daily service must be a figment of their imagination and it obviously was much too costly at $1.2bn for 30.5km of dual track with a top speed of 311mph and top operational speed of 268mph. At these prices London to Birmingham at 119 miles long would cost $7.51bn or £5bn even allowing for inflation it should only cost £10bn. This must have the Chinese with our £32bn investment in slow, costly to run, expensive to maintain, noisy Victorian technology doing this. 


http://kojects.com/2012/01/28/maglev-at-incheon-international-airport-to-be-completed-this-year/

But the Chinese don't want to stop there, they are investing heavily in this technology, where they are a large country, including up to 600mph vacuum tube versions, where it uses electricity and not fossil fuels and uses 25% of the energy of an aircraft and where it is enclosed it is not affected by extreme weather.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/china-developing-600-mph-airless-maglev-high-speed-train/9594

Yes Rods2, China is now a very rich and huge country that can develop railways from scratch without the problems the UK has with many densely populated areas and an active NIMBY group always active to stop progress.

We know the Shanghai Maglev line is no more than a linking line to an international airport, of just 18.6 miles long.  It is also running at just 20% capacity and is considered a "white elephant".

There is absolutely no reason why new 21st technology cannot be built on top, and in addition to, Victorian infrasture. The basic railway technology is a proven system and can be used very successfully to give rapid mass transport for hundreds of thousands across a relatively small country. If the powers to be decided to rip up all of the existing system in favour of building a Maglav network can you imagine the outcry over no trains to use, the expense, and the concerns over using electro magnetic power near people (there are still concerns over that that the Chinese are ignoring as they can)? It will not happen due mainly of course to the cost.

In addition I envisage eventually high speed railway links to all European systems and for that to happen all national networks must continue to use a standard gauge (4' 8 1/2" ) of two steel track design. It is clear that even the French have decided not to invest in Maglev as they know the importance of linking an international system, which includes the movement of freight as currently transpires through our Chunnel to link all parts of the UK network. Again, no one can afford to develop long distance Maglev lines especially as there is no prospect of hauling freight on them, which there is on HS1 & HS2 if so wished, which I predict will be a future development for commercial reasons; i.e. to pay for the new lines!!.

To repeat there is nothing wrong with developing an old technology and using the basic elements which the Victorians did from basic mine rail and simple wagonway networks, let alone an actual advanced version of a "railway" in ancient Babylon during 2,245 BC!

No, due to limited resource and the practicalities I have mentioned the UK must press ahead with the planned railway expansion which will survive until we can find a way of using teleporting!!

[tunnie]

So another argument is that HS2 will "increase commuter capacity"    Humm well it will be like Concorde across to the states, yes it increases transatlantic capacity, but at what cost to the customer? Lets say HS2 is built now & you live in Birmingham, its same story if you live in Manchester or whatever further up line. Say that's also built.

Standard journey time is 1hr 24 mins to London from Birmingham, on West Coast. Chiltern's new mainline services do one in 90mins, which is non-stop.

Virgin also do a quicker 1:12 morning commuter special service, which is their quickest. HS2's time will be? 49 mins. 

So it saves a whole 23 mins 

/engage sarcastic voice

woooow

/disengage sarcastic voice

Its going to be a fact, that the fare price will be significantly higher than West Coast or Chiltern. At least 25/30%, HS1 proved this, as their fare prices are higher than standard services and high speed services have been reduced since it was completed.

Lets look at it from other foot, you commute to London for your job, so you are a "commuter". Would you pay £600 a month to get to work, or by paying £480 a month? I could save £120 per month, by getting up 20 mins earlier? For as single man thats a no brainer, also if your married with kids, thats a considerable amount of extra spending cash.

I used to commute from Bicester to London every day via train for several years, in the end (2009) It cost £360 for the ticket, £420 if I wanted tubes zones and £480 with car parking included.

I dropped tube and cycled to save tube fares, as do many others. People will not pay the premium to commute on HS2, only the few which are allowed to expense. Which will basically be first class customers from current services...

All we will have is a slightly faster service, with some very empty trains....

[omega3000]

Money pit , so let the rich club pay for it as they will be the only ones able to afford to pay the fares , should be chocco block with banker's 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

So another argument is that HS2 will "increase commuter capacity"    Humm well it will be like Concorde across to the states, yes it increases transatlantic capacity, but at what cost to the customer? Lets say HS2 is built now & you live in Birmingham, its same story if you live in Manchester or whatever further up line. Say that's also built.

Standard journey time is 1hr 24 mins to London from Birmingham, on West Coast. Chiltern's new mainline services do one in 90mins, which is non-stop.

Virgin also do a quicker 1:12 morning commuter special service, which is their quickest. HS2's time will be? 49 mins. 

So it saves a whole 23 mins 

/engage sarcastic voice

woooow

/disengage sarcastic voice

Its going to be a fact, that the fare price will be significantly higher than West Coast or Chiltern. At least 25/30%, HS1 proved this, as their fare prices are higher than standard services and high speed services have been reduced since it was completed.

Lets look at it from other foot, you commute to London for your job, so you are a "commuter". Would you pay £600 a month to get to work, or by paying £480 a month? I could save £120 per month, by getting up 20 mins earlier? For as single man thats a no brainer, also if your married with kids, thats a considerable amount of extra spending cash.

I used to commute from Bicester to London every day via train for several years, in the end (2009) It cost £360 for the ticket, £420 if I wanted tubes zones and £480 with car parking included.

I dropped tube and cycled to save tube fares, as do many others. People will not pay the premium to commute on HS2, only the few which are allowed to expense. Which will basically be first class customers from current services...

All we will have is a slightly faster service, with some very empty trains....

For almost two years I commuted daily from Banbury to Marylebone, then tube / bus to the Old Kent Road, and back at the end of a long days business.  I was more than happy to pay the fare and travel in comfort on Chiltern Railways, with refreshments. I did have to use my car on more than one occasion and it was a nightmare, even though I had a free reserved parking space when I arrived at work.

Once a travel network is in place, with the latest developments in rail travel, customers / passengers will use it.  When the railways have developed up from the earlier 'standards' in the past, passengers have grasped the new service.

As I continue to state, the current railway system cannot cope and desperately requires upgrading with greater capacity given.  Failure to do so now will create havoc in 2025 on top of the chaos often experienced now, and standstill by 2050.

[tunnie]

Once a travel network is in place, with the latest developments in rail travel, customers / passengers will use it.  When the

Really? What like HS1? 

http://metro.co.uk/2010/05/04/140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints-283302/

The size of trains on a high-speed rail link have been cut in half after just four months because they are not popular enough.

"But the service has proved unpopular with some passengers who say the trains are ‘uncomfortable’, with fares costing one-third more than on normal trains."

[tunnie]

So tickets cost 33% more, not as comfy, but faster. I think you are kidding yourself if you think average commuter will pay at least £150 every month, just for an extra 20 mins in bed 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Once a travel network is in place, with the latest developments in rail travel, customers / passengers will use it.  When the

Really? What like HS1? 

http://metro.co.uk/2010/05/04/140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints-283302/

The size of trains on a high-speed rail link have been cut in half after just four months because they are not popular enough.

"But the service has proved unpopular with some passengers who say the trains are ‘uncomfortable’, with fares costing one-third more than on normal trains."

In answer please note the results for the Chunnel linking in to the HS1:

"Eurotunnel records 14% jump in revenue in 2012"

"CHANNEL Tunnel operator Eurotunnel says it had a record year in 2012 with a 14% increase in turnover to €993.1m. Passenger traffic breached the 300 million mark in October 2012 since the tunnel opened in 1994."

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/eurotunnel-records-14-jump-in-revenue-in-2012.html

and

http://www.link2portal.com/eurotunnel-records-promising-half-year-results-expresses-concern-over-rail-freight-levy

As for the South Eastern Railway Javelin services your links date back to 2010!  It is still early days and the HS Javelin service is developing.  There is as yet no full information available, but this is:

"Southeastern has announced 25 million domestic passenger journeys have been made on High Speed 1 between London and Kent since the launch of the service. This month marks three years since the introduction of the UK’s first domestic high speed service which has achieved some of the best records in punctuality and customer satisfaction in the country."

"The service was launched in December 2009 with 7.2 million passenger journeys in its first year. Journeys grew to around 8.2 million in the second year, and it now transports over 9 million people a year."

 “The service has made the connection between Kent and London far more accessible than ever before and has slashed journey times. It’s also opened the county up to the rest of the UK; we’ve seen around 25 percent more journeys to Kent from beyond London than there were prior to the service."

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/mobile/news/25-million-high-speed-journeys-in-three-years/

and on the subject of the London Olympics:

"Some 30,000 people used the high speed service to get from St Pancras to the Olympic Park before 10am on one of the busiest days of the whole of the London 2012 Games."

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/javelin-service-sees-highest-numbers-during-london-2012/

Progress never is achieved without pain and further development of the complete HS service will bring healthy results in the future as a wonderful mover of passengers and freight.  Once again it will take time as did the motor car and aeroplane, both dismissed as "novelties" in the past.

 

[tunnie]

Forget the Olympics, that was a 1 month wonder which will never been seen again in our life time.

What on earth does the Channel Tunnel have to do with your argument for commuter traffic?  - Why the sudden lean off into something completely irrelevance to what's being discussed?

Passenger numbers low (2012) story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17525872

Low numbers & 20% over-spend: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/mar/28/hs1-passenger-forecasts-optimistic-nao

5Bn debt from HS1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18733308

We have all this proof that High Speed expensive travel simply will not work here, no one will pay the 30% premium for it and it will cost way more than we expect.

HS1 proves this, yet we still have people thinking HS2 is will resolve commuter problems 

Cars and Aeroplanes? Concord was a fanatic technical achievement, but thanks to internet and video-conference calls there is now no need to get across the Atlantic in 3 hours. People would rather take 7 hours & pay a lot less, see the similarity here? 

So the commute wants to save money, family taking kids out will be quite happy to take just 20 mins longer as money saved would probably pay for dinner & a hotel!

Remind me, who will actually use this service?

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Forget the Olympics, that was a 1 month wonder which will never been seen again in our life time.

What on earth does the Channel Tunnel have to do with your argument for commuter traffic?  - Why the sudden lean off into something completely irrelevance to what's being discussed?

Passenger numbers low (2012) story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17525872

Low numbers & 20% over-spend: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/mar/28/hs1-passenger-forecasts-optimistic-nao

5Bn debt from HS1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18733308

We have all this proof that High Speed expensive travel simply will not work here, no one will pay the 30% premium for it and it will cost way more than we expect.

HS1 proves this, yet we still have people thinking HS2 is will resolve commuter problems 

Cars and Aeroplanes? Concord was a fanatic technical achievement, but thanks to internet and video-conference calls there is now no need to get across the Atlantic in 3 hours. People would rather take 7 hours & pay a lot less, see the similarity here?

So the commute wants to save money, family taking kids out will be quite happy to take just 20 mins longer as money saved would probably pay for dinner & a hotel!

Remind me, who will actually use this service?

Hang on Tunnie!  Calm down!

YOU mentioned HS1 and you must know that is completely linked to the Chunnel and the traffic from Europe!!   That is why I mention the Chunnel and it's business traffic; it is NOT unconnected, or did you think it was?

Commuter traffic can, and is affected by long distance commute and if you had read my original post that explained that type of travel and how it has evolved you will understand what I mean, even if you do not agree with it. Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well.  As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe.  Is that hard to understand?

On cars and planes you have taken my reference completely away from what I meant; every new or developing technology takes it's time to be accepted and taken on by the masses. But you know I meant that!

Why so much hostility towards a straight forward argument in favour of railway improvements and upgrading to 21st century travel on the system away from the aeroplane?  It is my opinion; oh, and the opinion of numerous organisations, business communities, and currently the government to create jobs, a major civil engineering project after Crosslink is completed, and advanced distribution of  business opportunities, and therefore wealth, for the Northern half of the country.  What is really wrong with that project, that objective, that will give the country advanced passenger capacity for the future? 

Perhaps on a car Forum there is the blinkered thought that thousands of more miles of motorways should be built.  Forget that thought, it cannot now happen, with the age of the car as we know it today finishing by 2050.

That is my opinion and I am entitled to it as you are to yours Tunnie, without the raising of 'voices'.  

[tunnie]

Who uses these HS services? In the main business people, but then your average traveller as well.  As for families travelling the services; well they already do to go through the Chunnel and onto Europe. This would expand to those wishing to travel from the North to Europe.  Is that hard to understand?

Exactly my point, people who can expense. In terms of numbers, actually very low in grand scheme of things.

Average developer, manager ect, cannot expense, so won't pay it.

All this talk of boosting traffic to Europe and other stuff, you don't seriously believe it do you? HS2 is not going to add sudden new abilities that have never been seen before.

If you live in Birmingham you can take West Coast to London, then switch to Paris line already, all HS2 does is save you 20 mins.

20 mins at a cost of billions 

Just wake up earlier 

[tigers_gonads]

I think its a case of ............. the other kids in the playground have one so we should have one too