Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: cem_devecioglu on 30 March 2013, 15:31:33
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although its in german language and needs translation by google, there are some info that may be useful..
http://www.senatorman.de/opel_omega_b.htm (http://www.senatorman.de/opel_omega_b.htm)
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A bit vague ::)
V8 details are a bit of a red herring...5.7...DOHC...310PS...
I wonder if the factory museum at Russelheim would miss their one and only 4 seat V8.com estate :-\
http://www.senatorman.de/bilder/Omega_B_v8com_06.jpg (http://www.senatorman.de/bilder/Omega_B_v8com_06.jpg)
http://www.senatorman.de/bilder/Omega_B_v8com_04.jpg (http://www.senatorman.de/bilder/Omega_B_v8com_04.jpg)
http://www.senatorman.de/bilder/Omega_B_v8com_01.jpg (http://www.senatorman.de/bilder/Omega_B_v8com_01.jpg)
Long wheelbase as well by the look of it 8) Me suspects the Holden VY Commodore wagon as the basis for that, which would make the V8 a doddle to fit ::)
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A lot of info and variants cem - got bored about halfway through though trying to translate it all.
Shame a lot of the pics have a fold down the middle - they could have photoshopped it out ???
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A lot of info and variants cem - got bored about halfway through though trying to translate it all.
Shame a lot of the pics have a fold down the middle - they could have photoshopped it out ???
I cant read german but when you translate the page into english lots of info :y
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A bit vague ::)
V8 details are a bit of a red herring...5.7...DOHC...310PS...
I wonder if the factory museum at Russelheim would miss their one and only 4 seat V8.com estate :-\
give the link to page translators.. :y
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ok..here you go :y
http://translate.google.com.tr/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=tr&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.senatorman.de%2Fopel_omega_b.htm (http://translate.google.com.tr/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=tr&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.senatorman.de%2Fopel_omega_b.htm)
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
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Interesting! :y :y
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
Yeah see, gm had it all wrong. They should of fitted that race engine you where on about cem. What was it? A Honda F1 engine? Imagine the omega we could of had then! ::) ;D
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
Yeah see, gm had it all wrong. They should of fitted that race engine you where on about cem. What was it? A Honda F1 engine? Imagine the omega we could of had then! ::) ;D
dont know what to comment really :-\
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
Yeah see, gm had it all wrong. They should of fitted that race engine you where on about cem. What was it? A Honda F1 engine? Imagine the omega we could of had then! ::) ;D
dont know what to comment really :-\
Fitting a v8 cem, remember? ;D
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111173.0
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
Yeah see, gm had it all wrong. They should of fitted that race engine you where on about cem. What was it? A Honda F1 engine? Imagine the omega we could of had then! ::) ;D
dont know what to comment really :-\
Fitting a v8 cem, remember? ;D
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111173.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111173.0)
now understand.. I didnt change my idea..
hp and weight determines the result not number of cylinders..
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must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
Yeah see, gm had it all wrong. They should of fitted that race engine you where on about cem. What was it? A Honda F1 engine? Imagine the omega we could of had then! ::) ;D
dont know what to comment really :-\
Fitting a v8 cem, remember? ;D
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111173.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=111173.0)
now understand.. I didnt change my idea..
hp and weight determines the result not number of cylinders..
So GM's idea was all wrong then? Although they did pull the project. ;)
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days of bulky athmopheric high volume v8 engines is long gone imo..
today if I would choose an engine it must have
less weight ,
less cylinders to service,
need less space
and relatively higher hp..
but thats my opinion.. and no need to be same as GM..
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days of bulky athmopheric high volume v8 engines is long gone imo..
today if I would choose an engine it must have
less weight ,
less cylinders to service,
need less space
and relatively higher hp..
but thats my opinion.. and no need to be same as GM..
Yet your turbo ing a v6 with cast iron block of similar weight, that won't produce the same power without shifting itself. And yet you really like the monaro with the same engine.... ::)
must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
I think the politician needs to sort his manifesto out. ::) ;D
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days of bulky athmopheric high volume v8 engines is long gone imo..
today if I would choose an engine it must have
less weight ,
less cylinders to service,
need less space
and relatively higher hp..
but thats my opinion.. and no need to be same as GM..
Yet your turbo ing a v6 with cast iron block of similar weight, that won't produce the same power without shifting itself. And yet you really like the monaro with the same engine.... ::)
must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
I think the politician needs to sort his manifesto out. ::) ;D
I like the monaros design as it has somewhat similiar to omegas curves.. :) but that doesnt mean I will buy it..
honestly I also dont know what to do with miggy.. I can spend money and modify it , but that money will have no return except some joy and speeding tickets.. besides its consumption will be far from practical , let alone being economical.. and I cant hammer it in crowded city except late nights and early weekend hours.. yesterday tested the new cams, performance better but way too far from my expectations.. however, I dont plan to enter local drags either ;D dont know really..
there in UK you can buy an over avg sports car for the omega money(here).. but taxes and insurance costs (here) immense to say the least..
if I was there recipe was clear .. but here things really different.. :(
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days of bulky athmopheric high volume v8 engines is long gone imo..
today if I would choose an engine it must have
less weight ,
less cylinders to service,
need less space
and relatively higher hp..
but thats my opinion.. and no need to be same as GM..
Yet your turbo ing a v6 with cast iron block of similar weight, that won't produce the same power without shifting itself. And yet you really like the monaro with the same engine.... ::)
must say I really like older design monaros but they are not existent here.. :-\
Pontiac GTO is the same car :y plenty of US servicemen in that part of the world...
thats a good info :y
I think the politician needs to sort his manifesto out. ::) ;D
I like the monaros design as it has somewhat similiar to omegas curves.. :) but that doesnt mean I will buy it..
honestly I also dont know what to do with miggy.. I can spend money and modify it , but that money will have no return except some joy and speeding tickets.. besides its consumption will be far from practical , let alone being economical.. and I cant hammer it in crowded city except late nights and early weekend hours.. yesterday tested the new cams, performance better but way too far from my expectations.. however, I dont plan to enter local drags either ;D dont know really..
there in UK you can buy an over avg sports car for the omega money(here).. but taxes and insurance costs (here) immense to say the least..
if I was there recipe was clear .. but here things really different.. :(
F1 engines obviously available though. ..? ::) ;)
IMO, as others have said and discovered here, super/turbo charging gm v6 will destroy the bottom end. Forced induction ain't for omega. You know that, you've been on here long enough surely? :)
3.0 top end is known to work obviously. ...manifolds? Oe are a chamber type manifold. Perhaps a tubular single pipe per cylinder design maybe?
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Or the 2.8 turbo option? Straight 6turbo maybe for you?
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"IMO, as others have said and discovered here, super/turbo charging gm v6 will destroy the bottom end. Forced induction ain't for omega. You know that, you've been on here long enough surely"
no worries, if I decide on that route I will go whole forged setup, different cooling and different bottom end.. and not turbo either..
here some firms can build custom parts and I wont need to pay unnecessary cargo and import taxes.. etc etc..
but as I said in that case omega will definitely be a weekend car :-\
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As I understand it, the main bearing journals are the weakness. 2.5 2.6 3.0 and 3.2 all have two bolt main bearings. (LS* gm v8 has 4bolt mains man enough for mega bhp, even in an alloy block) wonder is there a way to strengthen the crank case and crank bearing caps. ..? Probably not. :(
Maybe 2woody will post?
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As I understand it, the main bearing journals are the weakness. 2.5 2.6 3.0 and 3.2 all have two bolt main bearings. (LS* gm v8 has 4bolt mains man enough for mega bhp, even in an alloy block) wonder is there a way to strengthen the crank case and crank bearing caps. ..? Probably not. :(
Maybe 2woody will post?
good info.. :y
I'm sure some alternatives can be planned before trying the "next engine please" ;D
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Very good find cem. This bit interested me as I have been looking at the more modern, more powerful and more economical 3.6 for sometime, wondering where it is a 60deg V whether it would fit an Omega. Now I have my answer:
"For the South American market are two modified from the popular 3.8-liter V6 ECOTEC 3.6-liter V6 available (244 hp and 265 hp), the V8 versions are not. The V6 engines are modern four-valve engines with SFI fuel injection. Both engines are equipped with the well-known from the Omega Y25DT 5-speed automatic transmission GM 5L-40E."
This to me look as good route to go if you want a more powerful, modern engine in an Omega, with a 5-speed auto box. My understanding is that this also gives better MPG than 3.0/3.2 and being all alloy is much lighter.
I wonder what a write off Omega from South America would cost as a donor car. :) :) :) :)
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Alot of effort and cost for an extra 26bhp and 47bhp gain respectively. Plus a lighter engine will need the front suspension re springing. Then the import costs...?
But if it will take some tuning ...?
Seems to me if looking to swap out an imported engine, import one with some woompf. :)
Ps, sure that lump is available in the states.
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You are correct on the US. The one to go for would be the Camero 2010-2011 312hp, 278lbs-ft LLT or 2012-> 323hp, 278lb-ft
Which would give you about 50% more over standard and I would expect a much lower first gear with a 5-speed autobox.
There are also 304hp 273lb-ft LLC fitted to the Cadillac STS from 2008-2011, which maybe the best option when looking for a donor write off at a reasonable price.
Fuel consumption is reasonable: http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/28301 (http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/28301)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine)
My thinking is what can you do for more power and still get around current 3.0 Miggy fuel consumption. With the 3.6 Extra-Urban fuel consumption of 37.7mpg, which I suspect would be around 30-33 in real world condition, you would be looking at 45-50mpg costs with LPG. :y :y :y Of course we would all like to put a Vette V8 in our Miggy but I suspect for many the runny costs would not make it very practical. ::)
If 50% more power and 40% more torque with a 3.6 V6 is not worth it, then best you stick to your F1 engine plan. :P :P ;D ;D ;D
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A couple of points...
1. The 3.8 v6 is readily available, and quite often Supercharged, although mostly wwd :y
2. US gallons are a completely different size to ours, so measure the mpg carefully :y
A couple of grand would see summat with four wheels and a working engine over here. There is also potentially a salvage route from Brazil and the Middle East which could provide access to some off GMs finest examples of 'Rest of World' badge engineering :-\
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You are correct on the US. The one to go for would be the Camero 2010-2011 312hp, 278lbs-ft LLT or 2012-> 323hp, 278lb-ft
Which would give you about 50% more over standard and I would expect a much lower first gear with a 5-speed autobox.
There are also 304hp 273lb-ft LLC fitted to the Cadillac STS from 2008-2011, which maybe the best option when looking for a donor write off at a reasonable price.
Fuel consumption is reasonable: http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/28301 (http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/28301)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine)
My thinking is what can you do for more power and still get around current 3.0 Miggy fuel consumption. With the 3.6 Extra-Urban fuel consumption of 37.7mpg, which I suspect would be around 30-33 in real world condition, you would be looking at 45-50mpg costs with LPG. :y :y :y Of course we would all like to put a Vette V8 in our Miggy but I suspect for many the runny costs would not make it very practical. ::)
If 50% more power and 40% more torque with a 3.6 V6 is not worth it, then best you stick to your F1 engine plan. :P :P ;D ;D ;D
WoooOOOOooooo so the politician wants to move the goal posts with different figures aye?
The combined figure is 25.5 mpg Rods. With an urban figure if 16 mpg. ::) and I don't believe that for a minute. Those figures are nearer the v8.
There's an sts on auto trader btw. 11k
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...and the cts has a cracking interior. ...btw.
Anyway, back to F1 engines ;D ;)
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//Mr Admin hat on...
Mr Gixer, could you refrain from being quite so aggressive to those who wish to look at other options beyond a V8.
Apologies if its just light hearted banter, but it doesn't seem to come across that way.
Merci Bucket.
//Admin hat off
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Nope, don't accept that, cheak repaid in kind IMO. ;)
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I would add, admin should really have put their admin hat on on the link I posted if that's the case? :)
As that thread was dedicated to a v8 and see what happened there...? :-\
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Nope, don't accept that, cheak repaid in kind IMO. ;)
I take it it is intended as light hearted banter then? In which case might be worth considering the way it comes over sometimes :)
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I would add, admin should really have put their admin hat on on the link I posted if that's the case? :)
As that thread was dedicated to a v8 and see what happened there...? :-\
And what has that got to do with the price of fish?
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Maybe. But those that have a political agenda of their own will read into it as they wish. Then complain. I will not be pandering to them. I'm afraid. For that I am truly sorry. Really. :(
It is banter IMO. Btw.
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Maybe. But those that have a political agenda of their own will read into it as they wish.
I'm sure some will say you have ;)
Then complain.
You make it too easy ;)
I will not be pandering to them. I'm afraid.
All members will comply with the guidelines. End of.
It is banter IMO. Btw.
Glad to hear :) :y
I think we understand each other :)
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Maybe. But those that have a political agenda of their own will read into it as they wish.
I'm sure some will say you have ;)
Undoubtedly.
Anyway, these F1 engines... ;D
:( cocked the quotes up ::)
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You are correct on the US. The one to go for would be the Camero 2010-2011 312hp, 278lbs-ft LLT or 2012-> 323hp, 278lb-ft
Which would give you about 50% more over standard and I would expect a much lower first gear with a 5-speed autobox.
There are also 304hp 273lb-ft LLC fitted to the Cadillac STS from 2008-2011, which maybe the best option when looking for a donor write off at a reasonable price.
Fuel consumption is reasonable: http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/28301 (http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/28301)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine)
My thinking is what can you do for more power and still get around current 3.0 Miggy fuel consumption. With the 3.6 Extra-Urban fuel consumption of 37.7mpg, which I suspect would be around 30-33 in real world condition, you would be looking at 45-50mpg costs with LPG. :y :y :y Of course we would all like to put a Vette V8 in our Miggy but I suspect for many the runny costs would not make it very practical. ::)
If 50% more power and 40% more torque with a 3.6 V6 is not worth it, then best you stick to your F1 engine plan. :P :P ;D ;D ;D
Rods , as all factroies give the power ratings at the crank, those are not realistic power figures.. when you dyno them, the power transmitted to the wheels mostly 10-15 percent lower than the actual where rwd figures loss reaches 15-16 percent (and these numbers can reach 20 percent easily depending on the condition of clutch or autobox..) of course higher power engines loss is more in terms of hp.. :-\
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Hi cem,
I accept that, but the same also applies to the current Omega drive train and the same is also true with motorbikes with the gearbox / chain absorbing 10-15% of power. Comparing like for like with engines also needs to consider overall car weights, cd value and obviously wheel / engine rpm, particularly in top gear.
I think we would all like a super fast fire breathing V8 based monster, that approaches superbike performance with a sub 3 second 0-100kph and a standing quarter mile in sub 10 seconds, but reality dictates a cruising comfort / performance / engine size and configuration / running cost compromise and this is what I will be exploring. :y :y :y
I don't like the Omega V6 power / torque curve / rev with the the mid power drop as the inlet power valves open, my straight-6 3l 960 Volvo estate engine had a much better power / torque / rev curve with similar performance to the 3l Omega, but Volvo suspension with rear live axle was awful for comfort and handling. I prefer straight-6 engines, with their primary and secondary balance, but also understand with modern energy-absorbing crumple zones, engine length has to be shorter, so you don't lose too much interior space. The Volvo seats were also more comfortable on long journeys, but the Omega ones come a close second for doing 7-800 miles a day. :y :y :y
I have a specific set of circumstances for when I move to the Ukraine, which is why I have got this hat on and thinking about an interesting project, when I can get a cheap Omega Estate (import tax paid) body shell being sold for parts in the Ukraine. 3l V6 Elite Omega Estates are virtually non-existent in the Ukraine and to import one is about €12,000 in import taxes. :o :o :o :o Rather than continuing to hijack your thread at some point I will start my own, on my thoughts for my particular requirements and welcome comments on that.
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Before getting too hung up on losses.. Consider where that lost power goes. It can only go one place, of course... As heat in the component in which the power is "lost".
Now consider how much cooling would be required. 20 percent of 300 BHP isn't trivial - about 40 kilowatts of heat. 2 average-sized central heating boilers. :o
There's no way a gearbox and diff would ever dissipate that much heat without needing a cooler the size of the engine radiator. The small coolers that are found on automatic gearboxes, and generally the absence of them on manual gearboxes and diffs suggests to me that they are fiction.
However, if you're comparing with figures from a rolling road, that's where your losses are, mostly. 2 contact patches on each driven tyre instead of one, and the back of the car tied down hard against the rollers with ratchet straps. ;)
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It can only go one place, of course... As heat in the component in which the power is "lost".
I had a Honda engined Rover where I could argue that in 3rd, it lost an awful amount of energy in sound waves. Such a versatile gear for that peach of an engine, but boy did it whine after about 80k ;D
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Before getting too hung up on losses.. Consider where that lost power goes. It can only go one place, of course... As heat in the component in which the power is "lost".
Now consider how much cooling would be required. 20 percent of 300 BHP isn't trivial - about 40 kilowatts of heat. 2 average-sized central heating boilers. :o
There's no way a gearbox and diff would ever dissipate that much heat without needing a cooler the size of the engine radiator. The small coolers that are found on automatic gearboxes, and generally the absence of them on manual gearboxes and diffs suggests to me that they are fiction.
However, if you're comparing with figures from a rolling road, that's where your losses are, mostly. 2 contact patches on each driven tyre instead of one, and the back of the car tied down hard against the rollers with ratchet straps. ;)
yep.. law thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.. so the power must be lost in terms heat and some other means.. however, the power you can use actually is what the tyres can give at the moment not the crank power..
I have seen that a 286 hp v8 540 (4 litre) auto bimmer could give 235 hp at the dyno :o ???
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I have seen that a 286 hp v8 540 (4 litre) auto bimmer could give 235 hp at the dyno :o ???
If you're taking about a rolling road dyno, then the figures are meaningless without knowing what corrections had been applied.
In fact, they are meaningless unless a proper coastdown correction has been done to determine flywheel power, and you can't do that accurately with an automatic gearbox, so I'd say don't lose too much sleep over it. ;)
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I have seen that a 286 hp v8 540 (4 litre) auto bimmer could give 235 hp at the dyno :o ???
If you're taking about a rolling road dyno, then the figures are meaningless without knowing what corrections had been applied.
In fact, they are meaningless unless a proper coastdown correction has been done to determine flywheel power, and you can't do that accurately with an automatic gearbox, so I'd say don't lose too much sleep over it. ;)
Kevin , I know that most dynos dont read same figures and not using same correction algorithm..
however, the horsepower work unit is a fix definition.. and the dyno at least must be able to read the power at the wheels according to this definition.. while I was searching for a correct dyno reading , I have discovered 3 seperate dyno centers (which are widely accepted here by tuners) which can measure my car with close numbers.. I will share the before and after dyno readings with you probably next week.. :y