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[feeutfo]

Nope, don't accept that, cheak repaid in kind IMO.

[feeutfo]

I would add, admin should really have put their admin hat on on the link I posted if that's the case?

As that thread was dedicated to a v8 and see what happened there...? 

[TheBoy]

Nope, don't accept that, cheak repaid in kind IMO.

I take it it is intended as light hearted banter then? In which case might be worth considering the way it comes over sometimes

[TheBoy]

I would add, admin should really have put their admin hat on on the link I posted if that's the case?

As that thread was dedicated to a v8 and see what happened there...? 

And what has that got to do with the price of fish?

[feeutfo]

Maybe. But those that have a political agenda of their own will read into it as they wish. Then complain. I will not be pandering to them. I'm afraid. For that I am truly sorry. Really.

It is banter IMO. Btw.

[TheBoy]

Maybe. But those that have a political agenda of their own will read into it as they wish.

I'm sure some will say you have

Then complain.

You make it too easy

I will not be pandering to them. I'm afraid.

All members will comply with the guidelines. End of.

It is banter IMO. Btw.

Glad to hear


I think we understand each other

[feeutfo]

Maybe. But those that have a political agenda of their own will read into it as they wish.

I'm sure some will say you have

Undoubtedly.


Anyway, these F1 engines...


cocked the quotes up

[cem_devecioglu]

You are correct on the US. The one to go for would be the Camero 2010-2011 312hp, 278lbs-ft LLT or 2012-> 323hp, 278lb-ft
Which would give you about 50% more over standard and I would expect a much lower first gear with a 5-speed autobox.

There are also 304hp 273lb-ft LLC fitted to the Cadillac STS from 2008-2011, which maybe the best option when looking for a donor write off at a reasonable price.

Fuel consumption is reasonable: http://www.car-emissions.com/cars/view/28301

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine

My thinking is what can you do for more power and still get around current 3.0 Miggy fuel consumption. With the 3.6 Extra-Urban fuel consumption of 37.7mpg, which I suspect would be around 30-33 in real world condition, you would be looking at 45-50mpg costs with LPG.  Of course we would all like to put a Vette V8 in our Miggy but I suspect for many the runny costs would not make it very practical. 

If 50% more power and 40% more torque with a 3.6 V6 is not worth it, then best you stick to your F1 engine plan. 

Rods , as all factroies give the power ratings at the crank, those are not realistic power figures.. when you dyno them, the power transmitted to the wheels mostly 10-15 percent lower than the actual where rwd figures loss reaches 15-16 percent (and these numbers can reach 20 percent easily depending on the condition of clutch or autobox..) of course higher power engines loss is more in terms of hp..

[Rods2]

Hi cem,

I accept that, but the same also applies to the current Omega drive train and the same is also true with motorbikes with the gearbox / chain absorbing 10-15% of power. Comparing like for like with engines also needs to consider overall car weights, cd value and obviously wheel / engine rpm, particularly in top gear.

I think we would all like a super fast fire breathing V8 based monster, that approaches superbike performance with a sub 3 second 0-100kph and a standing quarter mile in sub 10 seconds, but reality dictates a cruising comfort / performance / engine size and configuration / running cost compromise and this is what I will be exploring. 

I don't like the Omega V6 power / torque curve / rev with the the mid power drop as the inlet power valves open, my straight-6 3l 960 Volvo estate engine had a much better power / torque / rev curve with similar performance to the 3l Omega, but Volvo suspension with rear live axle was awful for comfort and handling. I prefer straight-6 engines, with their primary and secondary balance, but also understand with modern energy-absorbing crumple zones, engine length has to be shorter, so you don't lose too much interior space. The Volvo seats were also more comfortable on long journeys, but the Omega ones come a close second for doing 7-800 miles a day. 

I have a specific set of circumstances for when I move to the Ukraine, which is why I have got this hat on and thinking about an interesting project, when I can get a cheap Omega Estate (import tax paid) body shell being sold for parts in the Ukraine. 3l V6 Elite Omega Estates are virtually non-existent in the Ukraine and to import one is about €12,000 in import taxes. Rather than continuing to hijack your thread at some point I will start my own, on my thoughts for my particular requirements and welcome comments on that.

[Kevin Wood]

Before getting too hung up on losses.. Consider where that lost power goes. It can only go one place, of course... As heat in the component in which the power is "lost".

Now consider how much cooling would be required. 20 percent of 300 BHP isn't trivial - about 40 kilowatts of heat. 2 average-sized central heating boilers.

There's no way a gearbox and diff would ever dissipate that much heat without needing a cooler the size of the engine radiator. The small coolers that are found on automatic gearboxes, and generally the absence of them on manual gearboxes and diffs suggests to me that they are fiction.

However, if you're comparing with figures from a rolling road, that's where your losses are, mostly. 2 contact patches on each driven tyre instead of one, and the back of the car tied down hard against the rollers with ratchet straps.

[TheBoy]

It can only go one place, of course... As heat in the component in which the power is "lost".

I had a Honda engined Rover where I could argue that in 3rd, it lost an awful amount of energy in sound waves. Such a versatile gear for that peach of an engine, but boy did it whine after about 80k

[cem_devecioglu]

Before getting too hung up on losses.. Consider where that lost power goes. It can only go one place, of course... As heat in the component in which the power is "lost".

Now consider how much cooling would be required. 20 percent of 300 BHP isn't trivial - about 40 kilowatts of heat. 2 average-sized central heating boilers.

There's no way a gearbox and diff would ever dissipate that much heat without needing a cooler the size of the engine radiator. The small coolers that are found on automatic gearboxes, and generally the absence of them on manual gearboxes and diffs suggests to me that they are fiction.

However, if you're comparing with figures from a rolling road, that's where your losses are, mostly. 2 contact patches on each driven tyre instead of one, and the back of the car tied down hard against the rollers with ratchet straps.

yep.. law thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.. so the power must be lost in terms heat and some other means.. however, the power you can use actually is what the tyres can give at the moment not the crank power..
 
I have seen that a 286 hp v8 540 (4 litre) auto bimmer could give 235 hp at the dyno

[Kevin Wood]

I have seen that a 286 hp v8 540 (4 litre) auto bimmer could give 235 hp at the dyno

If you're taking about a rolling road dyno, then the figures are meaningless without knowing what corrections had been applied.

In fact, they are meaningless unless a proper coastdown correction has been done to determine flywheel power, and you can't do that accurately with an automatic gearbox, so I'd say don't lose too much sleep over it.

[cem_devecioglu]

I have seen that a 286 hp v8 540 (4 litre) auto bimmer could give 235 hp at the dyno

If you're taking about a rolling road dyno, then the figures are meaningless without knowing what corrections had been applied.

In fact, they are meaningless unless a proper coastdown correction has been done to determine flywheel power, and you can't do that accurately with an automatic gearbox, so I'd say don't lose too much sleep over it.

Kevin , I know that most dynos dont read same figures and not using same correction algorithm..
 
however, the horsepower work unit is a fix definition..  and the dyno at least must be able to read the power at the wheels according to this definition.. while I was searching for a correct dyno reading , I have discovered 3 seperate dyno centers (which are widely accepted here by tuners) which can measure my car with close numbers.. I will share the before and after dyno readings with you probably next week..