Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 25 November 2013, 15:11:09
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Hi guys, hope you're well.
Ok, so i've recently had new top end (heads, cam seals, fannymould gaskets etc etc) and i was thinking to myself, ''what can i do to preserve the engine for many many years''.
Now i have two cylinder heads (L and R) that i am refurbing... new valves, new seals and possibly new guides. either way they will be in great condition once i've finished.
SO. i love the idea of having these heads fitted in 4 years time with 3L cams (really wishing i'd have done it this time but money and impatience got in my way) when it needs a new belt and also renewing the components bottom end as well.
my question (or as i prefer to look at it... item for discussion) is this....
would it be better to simply buy just replacement pistons and rings OR with the car then being about 20 years old would a whole new bottom end be the best? so include crank, oil pump etc etc
all this bearing in mind i can buy bits 'n' pieces over the 4 years......
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I think most engines outlast the bodywork they are fitted in, so bodywork is where you need to focus, IMHO. ;)
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Yeah, I need to do similar with my 2.2, at least underneath. "outside" body work is fairly good nick, considering it's miles.
I need to get that thick black tar/paint stuff and coat the underneath at some point
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I think most engines outlast the bodywork they are fitted in, so bodywork is where you need to focus, IMHO. ;)
Yeah the body work is an issue.... but i was considering that a given :)
is it even worth doing the bottom end? just struggling to see how rings are going to last for years and years bearing in mind what they do :-\
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So long as you do regular oil changes etc should be fine for years to come. But anything unforeseen can happen tho :)
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Why don't you buy a really cheap omega, whip the engine out and 'play' with it for four years? You'd have time to turn it into a virtually new engine.
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Why don't you buy a really cheap omega, whip the engine out and 'play' with it for four years? You'd have time to turn it into a virtually new engine.
That, my son, is an excellent idea.
Is it possible to just buy the cylinder blocks? to save a bit of dough 9as i have the heads, manifolds etc)
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Some of these cars go for next to nowt. If you could get it home you could probably weight it in for virtually what you paid.
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Some of these cars go for next to nowt. If you could get it home you could probably weight it in for virtually what you paid.
......whilst keeping the engine?????
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Some of these cars go for next to nowt. If you could get it home you could probably weight it in for virtually what you paid.
......whilst keeping the engine?????
Well......yeah. That's the whole idea. ;D
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You could turn yourself into an old school mechanic by cutting things in half to see how the work. :y
I did that with the first watch my dad bought me. He was not amused. :-[
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Hahahaha idiot! ;)
i've not really any need to cut things open as i more or less know how stuff works.... its just from the view of having a new engine to in to keep her going as long as possible :)
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it just so happens i have a spare 3.0l block sitting in my back yard. ::)
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ok RB that sounds interesting.... although i dont have the dosh for it at the mo what with it being almost crimbo :'(
how much would you want for said block? :)
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I dumped a good 3.0 bottom end earlier this year because no - one wanted it. ::)
How many miles has your engine done ? If you keep on top of servicing the internals should normally be good for 200,000 + so I wouldn't worry about rebuilding the bottom end, unless you just want to do it for a project / experience. ;)
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I dumped a good 3.0 bottom end earlier this year because no - one wanted it. ::)
How many miles has your engine done ? If you keep on top of servicing the internals should normally be good for 200,000 + so I wouldn't worry about rebuilding the bottom end, unless you just want to do it for a project / experience. ;)
:'(
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Yeah kinda wanted to do it for the experience and also the factor having a pristine engine under the hood :)
So say I get my block, i'm thinking I should strip it all down, take measurements of everything and renew whatever is borderline on the specs?
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Big end and main bearing shells, balance and a bit of lightening of the con rods,similar for the crank & pistons, recon oil pump - depends how far you want to go really.If you build it carefully and have it all balanced etc. you should have noticeable gains id performance, smooth running etc. :y
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Big end and main bearing shells, balance and a bit of lightening of the con rods,similar for the crank & pistons, recon oil pump - depends how far you want to go really.If you build it carefully and have it all balanced etc. you should have noticeable gains id performance, smooth running etc. :y
lightening of the con rods? as in replace them for lighter ones? :-\ :-[
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No, depending on the design you can remove metal from certain areas to make them lighter,but you would need to take advice from a V6 expert such as Markdtm before attempting something like that. Done wrong it would result in a broken rod at max rpm. ;)
It used to be a very worthwhile thing to do years ago,but modern production methods may mean its not so worthwhile now. Im not sure tbh mate. ::) :y
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No, depending on the design you can remove metal from certain areas to make them lighter,but you would need to take advice from a V6 expert such as Markdtm before attempting something like that. Done wrong it would result in a broken rod at max rpm. ;)
It used to be a very worthwhile thing to do years ago,but modern production methods may mean its not so worthwhile now. Im not sure tbh mate. ::) :y
OK thanks albs.
to be honest it was just a case of really wanting new in there. whats forging? I heard it mentioned by some 2-post moron in the gen help who went off on one at everybody ::)
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No, depending on the design you can remove metal from certain areas to make them lighter,but you would need to take advice from a V6 expert such as Markdtm before attempting something like that. Done wrong it would result in a broken rod at max rpm. ;)
It used to be a very worthwhile thing to do years ago,but modern production methods may mean its not so worthwhile now. Im not sure tbh mate. ::) :y
OK thanks albs.
to be honest it was just a case of really wanting new in there. whats forging? I heard it mentioned by some 2-post moron in the gen help who went off on one at everybody ::)
lmao, i remember that. :D
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No, depending on the design you can remove metal from certain areas to make them lighter,but you would need to take advice from a V6 expert such as Markdtm before attempting something like that. Done wrong it would result in a broken rod at max rpm. ;)
It used to be a very worthwhile thing to do years ago,but modern production methods may mean its not so worthwhile now. Im not sure tbh mate. ::) :y
OK thanks albs.
to be honest it was just a case of really wanting new in there. whats forging? I heard it mentioned by some 2-post moron in the gen help who went off on one at everybody ::)
lmao, i remember that. :D
haha his second post was something like ''you clearly don't know what youre talking about'' hahahah idiot!
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Istr 3.2 has a forged steel crank ? If so,you might be able to fit one of those, if it fits ? :-\
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Istr 3.2 has a forged steel crank ? If so,you might be able to fit one of those, if it fits ? :-\
presumably the ''forging'' aspect equates to extra strength? :-\
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As Kevin Wood eludes to, the engine should outlast the bodywork, unless something catastrophic happens. The Bullet claims 212k, I bought it at 88k, so (a very conservative ::)) 124k in my ownership, and I do like to let those horses free....
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best way to ensure your omega lasts forever is to renew the paint..
strip down the whole paint (deffo not with solvents) with sanding.. prime the body with epoxy (also underneath the car).. (use a filter mask)
and apply several times the best scratch resistent laquer in the market
and pray for no one crashes you ;D
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engine components can be bought cheaply anytime but bodywork jobs are always costly and requires long time..
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As it looks like I'm going to be keeping my mig it's having some special treatment over the next few weeks.
The bodywork is sound so I'll be doing some mechanical jobs ready for the winter and future years. Gulp!! 8)
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Agree with both aspects of the posts,but at the moment I'm on a mission to save the bodywork, as all mechanicals have been given a good seeing too, and as all three cars at the moment are averaging 1500 miles a year I've decided to take that option.I found a supplier who at the moment is stocking panels for the Omega that are being sourced from Denmark and I've nicked all his stock of wheel arches as the work is starting in a weeks time on the first car and the the other two straight after the Christmas break, and hopefully come the warmer weather I get the crappy job of doing the underbodies with Dynax...it gets every where,including you ::)but it's good stuff ...expensive but better than Waxoyl etc as it kills surface rust and then protects the metal thereafter :y
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As Kevin Wood eludes to, the engine should outlast the bodywork, unless something catastrophic happens. The Bullet claims 212k, I bought it at 88k, so (a very conservative ::)) 124k in my ownership, and I do like to let those horses free....hammer the shit out of it
Fixed that for you :D :D ;D
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i suppose the aim of the thread was really to discuss the engine but obviously body is a major factor.
bearing in mind the car will be 20 years old when i next come to do a timing belt i thought it'd be a good time to chuck in a brand new reman engine.
ive got the heads and they're what il immediately be getting on with. but i think i may bet a block, clean it up and prep it as i gp with new parts.
i mentioned also those thrust bearings the other day and im positive someone made the comment that all omegas had work thrust bearings.... perhaps they were made from poor material to start???? its stuff like this id like to renew and put together.
so long and short, whilst the body is important especially from an mot point of view im concentrating on engine for now.... this will also aid in the learning...although i have stripped down and erbuilt a few engines now :)
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My view is that engines are built very well from new these days. To better a factory built engine on a DIY rebuild you need to go to town, and that costs a lot of money. Until there are obvious signs of wear (poor compression, oil consumption, knocking, etc.) you are much better off maintaining the quality that was built in at the factory by leaving well alone... in my opinion, at any rate.
As said, for a V6, that's probably going to be 200k miles or more. Age doesn't really come into it. Engines deteriorate by mileage and, particularly, cold starts more than age.
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Good points kev.... how on gods earth do the piston rings not wear quickly though? they mustbe made out of kriptonite.
would also the cylinders not need a ''skimming'' or whateva the process is called?
ps look forward to seeing you at the curry night mate :)
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Piston rings are extremely hard cast iron so wear is not an issue normally. They can break, as they are very brittle, and they can wear the grooves in the piston crowns in which they sit. They can also lose their "spring" meaning that they don't sit tight against the bores with years of heat cycling. They should be moving against a film of clean oil on the bores if oil changes have been frequent, so bores and rings wear very slowly on a modern engine.
Until bore wear becomes a problem, the rings will seal well. Once you disturb something, you need to allow that seal to re-establish itself. You need to "hone" the bore, so that it's slightly abrasive and will wear back against the rings to form a perfect seal again, and also retain plenty of oil while doing so. Once you have got this far, though, you might well find that the bore is a little worn, or the piston ring grooves are a little loose, and, if replacing the pistons, you might as well go oversize and re-bore it. While the bottom end is apart, you'd be silly not to replace the bearings, and you'd be silly to do that without getting the crank polished and renewing all the seals. Before you know it, to do a job properly, you're looking at probably spending a grand for a V6. ;D
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Piston rings are extremely hard cast iron so wear is not an issue normally. They can break, as they are very brittle, and they can wear the grooves in the piston crowns in which they sit. They can also lose their "spring" meaning that they don't sit tight against the bores with years of heat cycling. They should be moving against a film of clean oil on the bores if oil changes have been frequent, so bores and rings wear very slowly on a modern engine.
Until bore wear becomes a problem, the rings will seal well. Once you disturb something, you need to allow that seal to re-establish itself. You need to "hone" the bore, so that it's slightly abrasive and will wear back against the rings to form a perfect seal again, and also retain plenty of oil while doing so. Once you have got this far, though, you might well find that the bore is a little worn, or the piston ring grooves are a little loose, and, if replacing the pistons, you might as well go oversize and re-bore it. While the bottom end is apart, you'd be silly not to replace the bearings, and you'd be silly to do that without getting the crank polished and renewing all the seals. Before you know it, to do a job properly, you're looking at probably spending a grand for a V6. ;D
That is a shed loada dough :o
Say you took a perfectly good block with perfectly good cylinder bores and perfectly good pistons/rings etc (just as an example to help me understand)......Do you think that simply removing a piston and putting it back would disturb it enough to mean that you'd need it honed? And by honing and making it abrasive are we talking fine emery or something a little more technical? :)
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Webby, your Christmas holiday assignment is to watch every episode of American Hotrod :y
A bit glossy an 'american', but plenty of detail hidden in there :y
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;D thanks mate ill check it out and we can add to the discussion :y
still think im going to get a block to play with :-X ;D
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;D thanks mate ill check it out and we can add to the discussion :y
still think im going to get a block to play with :-X ;D
as i said, i have one here. i would remove the oil cooler though as its nearly new.
jon.
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pm sent mate :y