Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Steve B on 17 July 2014, 16:54:06
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http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board
Who done it :-\
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There will be hell to pay if it proves to be the Russians! :o :(
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There will be hell to pay if it proves to be the Russians! :o :(
The bbc dont mention shot down like sky do
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Reuters reporting it's been shot down. :(
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-ukraine-crash-airplane-idUSKBN0FM1TU20140717
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This is what happens when war rules!
Ukraine this time and Palestine/Israel next?
Like with the Iranian aircraft loss due to an American warship missile firing in 1988 during the Iranian/Iraq conflict, aircraft, civilian or not, can be targets due to mistake or design.
Horrific. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( Those poor souls now lost :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Does anyone one the ground actually have the facilities to reliably take down an airliner at 30,000 feet...
Also a long time between when the plane disappeared to the announcement, about three hours :-\ and no confirmation that the aircraft that crashed is actually the one that went missing....
Nevertheless there's another 300 or so families waiting for news :'(
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Does anyone one the ground actually have the facilities to reliably take down an airliner at 30,000 feet...
Also a long time between when the plane disappeared to the announcement, about three hours :-\ and no confirmation that the aircraft that crashed is actually the one that went missing....
Nevertheless there's another 300 or so families waiting for news :'(
Yes, both on the ITN and BBC news they have confirmed Russian made missile systems are either with Russians or Russian separatives in that area of the Ukraine that can bring down aircraft at that altitude. :'( :'(
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I like the way the news says about 9 Britons and 23 us citizens on board. Don't they care about the rest.
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I like the way the news says about 9 Britons and 23 us citizens on board. Don't they care about the rest.
Probably not :-\
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imo media will use all sorts of weird stories..
there seems no evidence at the moment.. but some made plans to abuse that crash.. :(
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I like the way the news says about 9 Britons and 23 us citizens on board. Don't they care about the rest.
When that is stated in these cases it emphasises how if USA citizens in particular are killed by a foreign power then the implication is that retaliation will be severe. It is a sad fact that although we are all meant to be equal in the eyes of God, when it comes to the likelihood of a serious political action against those responsible it takes the loss of American or European lives to really make it happen due to the military power in the West.
Wrong, but a fact of human life. :'( :'(
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we are all meant to be equal in the eyes of God,
That depends on what God is worshipped
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Terrible , rip all those that died :(
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we are all meant to be equal in the eyes of God,
That depends on what God is worshipped
There is only one God as worshipped by the major world religions :y
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we are all meant to be equal in the eyes of God,
That depends on what God is worshipped
There is only one God as worshipped by the major world religions :y
That god is OIL, Texas tea.,but in a few more years the most fought over commodity will be water.
But in the words of the Ukrainian/russian fighter. Whoops ive done it now.
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what is it nowadays with war and death,there is no winner :'(
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we are all meant to be equal in the eyes of God,
That depends on what God is worshipped
There is only one God as worshipped by the major world religions :y
That god is OIL, Texas tea.,but in a few more years the most fought over commodity will be water.
But in the words of the Ukrainian/russian fighter. Whoops ive done it now.
or Money.. :(
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Can a 777 detect an inbound missile? Think they can only pick up things which give off a signal like another plane. :-\
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we are all meant to be equal in the eyes of God,
That depends on what God is worshipped
Ah yes good old fashioned perspective...
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Can a 777 detect an inbound missile? Think they can only pick up things which give off a signal like another plane. :-\
Only if the missile was fitted with a transponder. The only radar capability a commercial aircraft has is weather focused, looking for thunderstorms and windshear rather than supersonic missiles...
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Does anyone one the ground actually have the facilities to reliably take down an airliner at 30,000 feet...
Also a long time between when the plane disappeared to the announcement, about three hours :-\ and no confirmation that the aircraft that crashed is actually the one that went missing....
Nevertheless there's another 300 or so families waiting for news :'(
Russia has been supplying advanced SAM systems to the Russian terrorists including a Buk system which can certainly shoot down an aircraft at 32,000ft as part of large armoured columns they have sent across the border. Terrorist announced shooting down Ukrainian AN-29 as this is what they thought they had shot down, when it was the Malaysian Boeing. :'( :'( :'(
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-150-ukrainian-troops-describe-grad-rocket-attack-from-russia/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-150-ukrainian-troops-describe-grad-rocket-attack-from-russia/)
The Russians have been directly involved with a major escalating in Ukraine since EU agreement was signed at the end of June. I did report on here what was happening with major movements of Russian armour into Ukraine. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Russia has taken as a signal that the west has no interest in what is happening on their doorstep in Ukraine where all they have done is a few feeble sanctions on individuals and they have even squabbled over this.
Russia has also been firing Grad rockets from their territory at Ukrainian troops. There is a war in East Ukraine, using Russian supplied equipment to irregular Russian forces.
The global political vacuum happening as a result of the US under Obummer having no foreign policy may well start WWIII.
Where the Western press have got tired and been pretty much ignoring East Ukraine, this is now going to become centre stage again. The weak west and our appeasement along with Obummers useless red-lines means the US is being treated with contempt by Russia and their backed forces.
We now have 5 major conflicts going on simultaneously in Ukraine, in Libya with a full military invasion of Tripoli this evening, Syria, Iraq and Gaza.
The situation is much more complex than simply oil.
Dick Cheney saying Obummer is much worse than Carter, who was previously classed as the worst US president in living memory says it all.
If you want to follow what is happening will the most up to date news on the various conflicts. Go onto this twitter feed. I'm following many twitter feeds over Ukraine, world class academics on Eastern Europe with their blogs, Eastern European Government agency websites, their equivalents of Reuters and some facebook pages, which keeps me much more informed with what is going on than you can find in any MSM. :(
https://twitter.com/rConflictNews (https://twitter.com/rConflictNews)
The information is out there if you make the effort to find it.
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A view from one of the global experts, which has just hit my inbox, he has this blog and has been involved with briefing UK MP's on the Ukrainian conflict. He knows his stuff.
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/reasons-why-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-probably-shot-down-by-a-rebel-missile-and-why-this-mean-the-rebels-have-lost/ (http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/reasons-why-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-probably-shot-down-by-a-rebel-missile-and-why-this-mean-the-rebels-have-lost/)
Lizzie and a few others might be interested in this document by a Russian staff officer in a Russian military journal, which describes Russian 21st century non-linear warfare.
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-gerasimov-doctrine-and-russian-non-linear-war/ (http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-gerasimov-doctrine-and-russian-non-linear-war/)
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A view from one of the global experts, which has just hit my inbox, he has this blog and has been involved with briefing UK MP's on the Ukrainian conflict. He knows his stuff.
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/reasons-why-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-probably-shot-down-by-a-rebel-missile-and-why-this-mean-the-rebels-have-lost/ (http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/reasons-why-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-probably-shot-down-by-a-rebel-missile-and-why-this-mean-the-rebels-have-lost/)
Lizzie and a few others might be interested in this document by a Russian staff officer in a Russian military journal, which describes Russian 21st century non-linear warfare.
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-gerasimov-doctrine-and-russian-non-linear-war/ (http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-gerasimov-doctrine-and-russian-non-linear-war/)
Good read that was :y
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So why if it was shot down was there no trailing fire or smoke ??? The videos show smoke on impact only :-\
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So why if it was shot down was there no trailing fire or smoke ??? The videos show smoke on impact only :-\
The height the aircraft was shot down was 33,000ft which is 6.25 miles high. This means that it will travel a long distance before crashing leaving a path of debris on the way as it disintegrates. This can be quite easily calculated from cruise speed and height and will be, where they know the approximate location of the terrorists Buk SAM system. I also don't know what the rocket burn time and acceleration is to know to what height the SAM system will leave a trail, plus there has been a trend to reduce SAM launch smoke trails as it makes it easier to spot by a pilot, with the most modern using smokeless engines.
Like the Korean aircraft shot down by Russia and the Iranian one by the US, this is going to have big global repercussions. East Ukraine is no long a backwater conflict that can be ignored. :o :o :o
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/when-you-mess-with-civilian-airliners-you-mess-with-the-world-82285f15cc5a (https://medium.com/war-is-boring/when-you-mess-with-civilian-airliners-you-mess-with-the-world-82285f15cc5a)
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I suppose Ukrainian terrorism and Barrack Obamas limp wrist were both to blame for the train crash in French France this evening and for Israels invasion of Gaza too...
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Just as likely to be an Al Qaeda effort...
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Any thoughts on why the plane was flying over a war zone? No mention n the media.
Ah, just mentioned as I type.
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Any thoughts on why the plane was flying over a war zone? No mention n the media.
Ah, just mentioned as I type.
33,000 feet above a combat zone of ground troops was deemed OK. Some airlines avoided the area.
Hopefully the West will now wake up as the combatants have crossed a line. I know it will cost US money as taxpayers but we ought to be in the Ukraine now helping sweep out the Rebels and helping Ukraine return to peace. It will be interesting to see what the UK COBRA meeting this a.m. comes up with. Camerons new cabinet and team are having a baptism of fire. The first thing to do would be to give five minutes warning of unmanned drone strikes on all buk SAM equipment on the ground in the Ukraine.
While we are on the subject, it is about time "the West" stepped into the other killing and displacing zones of the world. It is also totally unnaceptable what is happening in Israel and Palestine, Syria and Libya. Not just the killing but also the millions and millions of refugees. Where would you go if your country was a daily battle ground?
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A view from one of the global experts, which has just hit my inbox, he has this blog and has been involved with briefing UK MP's on the Ukrainian conflict. He knows his stuff.
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/reasons-why-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-probably-shot-down-by-a-rebel-missile-and-why-this-mean-the-rebels-have-lost/ (http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/reasons-why-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-probably-shot-down-by-a-rebel-missile-and-why-this-mean-the-rebels-have-lost/)
Lizzie and a few others might be interested in this document by a Russian staff officer in a Russian military journal, which describes Russian 21st century non-linear warfare.
http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-gerasimov-doctrine-and-russian-non-linear-war/ (http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/the-gerasimov-doctrine-and-russian-non-linear-war/)
Very interesting, thanks Rods :y :y
I like the crux of his argument which he sums up as:
"For me, this is probably the most important line in the whole piece, so allow me to repeat it: The role of nonmilitary means of achieving political and strategic goals has grown, and, in many cases, they have exceeded the power of force of weapons in their effectiveness. In other words, this is an explicit recognition not only that all conflicts are actually means to political ends–the actual forces used are irrelevant–but that in the modern realities, Russia must look to non-military instruments increasingly."
The highlighted sentence is so true. It probably always has been, even in the gun boat diplomacy age. A Machiavellian approach is really what war has been about for centuries, but when you think of the actions of WW2 it is very clear. The mass bombing of Germany; the USSR sacrificing 100's of thousands of it's soldiers in it's drive against the German Army; Japanese suicidal military drives which threw bodies into the interests of the common goal, are all examples of the end justifying the means, or that was the common argument such as with"Bomber" Harris. In WW1 the same "means justifies the end" was the unspoken thought as Haig drove towards Victory.
However, the Russian General has successfully explained a new world fact: diplomatic might has exceeded physical military might and is now used after a war has actually started. How different from the past. To me this is due to the perceived strength of organisations like the UN and NATO. They are the 21st century "gun boat", but personally I doubt the ability of International law to be implemented let alone upheld. Those organisations still rely on the teeth of the USA, and how the US views any breach of International law, along with if they want to get involved, now declining to isolationism, rules really whether or not International law is going to be upheld. This is exactly what Russia is currently relying on in Ukraine, as it did with the Crimea.
There are of course echo's here of 1939 and how Hitler gambled, and chanced his way into 'acquiring territory' for the Third Reich, hoping that Great Britain would do nothing, and certainly not declare war on Germany as it did. Putin, no Hitler I believe, is gambling on the USA not wanting to intervene and is relying on diplomatic argument to re-acquire Russian lands, as viewed by him.
In short the Russian General has it about right in his interesting, and revealing, piece.
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as far as I see similiar stories serviced to whole media.. even here.. I wont believe even a word of it, until any serious investigation is done and official report is announced.
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:( Just been announced that 2 of the British dead were Newcastle United fans going to New Zealand to watch them in pre-season games :(
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:( Just been announced that 2 of the British dead were Newcastle United fans going to New Zealand to watch them in pre-season games :(
And that is the true human aspect of this tragic affair. :'( :'( :'( :'(
There will be many more :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Okay, a few facts on those missile systems
No matter whether it was the Ukrainian, so called rebels or the Russian armed forces, the operator behind the screen would have clearly seen the speed, altitude and track of the aircraft.
If it was military then it would have been squawking a code from its IFF transponder to say who it was.
If it is a civilian aircraft then I believe it would have been squawking its CAA identification code.
These systems are designed to work as a part of a laired system.
Long, medium (which this missile was) and short range.
Of course the system can work independently if needed.
From what I remember, these systems have basically 3 modes.
1/. Full auto where the missile interrogates the targets IFF and if it doesn't like the answer it gets then it launches.
2/. Semi auto which is the same as auto BUT the final launch decision is by the human operator.
3/. Manual where the aircraft is individually targeted and fired upon :(
Highly convenient that the Ukrainians have just released a so called intercepted message by the rebels saying that they thought it was a An26 aircraft.
Well i'll bet every penny i've got that a turboprop transport aircraft cruising at 32000 ft at 250 knots ish looks a hell of a lot different to a Boing 777 cruising at 400 - 450 knots so all this talk of a accident is crap imo.
As far as i'm concerned, it was a deliberate act of murder >:(
According to the reports, the aircraft flew on largely intact before breaking up on impact.
To me, that says the missile hit on the front quarter of the aircraft killing the crew instantly hence no message from the crew :(
I think the only question outstanding is WHO did it, not why or how :(
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Okay, a few facts on those missile systems
No matter whether it was the Ukrainian, so called rebels or the Russian armed forces, the operator behind the screen would have clearly seen the speed, altitude and track of the aircraft.
If it was military then it would have been squawking a code from its IFF transponder to say who it was.
If it is a civilian aircraft then I believe it would have been squawking its CAA identification code.
These systems are designed to work as a part of a laired system.
Long, medium (which this missile was) and short range.
Of course the system can work independently if needed.
From what I remember, these systems have basically 3 modes.
1/. Full auto where the missile interrogates the targets IFF and if it doesn't like the answer it gets then it launches.
2/. Semi auto which is the same as auto BUT the final launch decision is by the human operator.
3/. Manual where the aircraft is individually targeted and fired upon :(
Highly convenient that the Ukrainians have just released a so called intercepted message by the rebels saying that they thought it was a An26 aircraft.
Well i'll bet every penny i've got that a turboprop transport aircraft cruising at 32000 ft at 250 knots ish looks a hell of a lot different to a Boing 777 cruising at 400 - 450 knots so all this talk of a accident is crap imo.
As far as i'm concerned, it was a deliberate act of murder >:(
According to the reports, the aircraft flew on largely intact before breaking up on impact.
To me, that says the missile hit on the front quarter of the aircraft killing the crew instantly hence no message from the crew :(
I think the only question outstanding is WHO did it, not why or how :(
The only point I would question is that reports are indicating the wreckage is spread over a wide area, indicating that the aircraft broke up in the air. This rather reminds us of the Lockerbie plane bombing where a similar scattering of wreckage occurred. So it would appear it was either a bomb on board or a missile strike that broke the aircraft apart.
Obviously that will be clarified over the next few hours/days to hopefully settle all the speculation that we are all engaged in.
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SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.
IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.
Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.
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SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.
IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.
Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.
Iirc Nige, the SA 11 / SA 17's are a part of the S300 system that both Ukraine and Russia use hence the laired defence comment :)
Agree that if it was the rebels then it would be a case of the muppet behind the button cocking up :(
Lizzie, picked up a report from Murdock news that the aircraft broke in two on impact but at the end of the day, if you take the nose of the fuselage of a 777 traveling at 400 knots then a few panels will fall off regardless :(
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SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.
IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.
Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.
Iirc Nige, the SA 11 / SA 17's are a part of the S300 system that both Ukraine and Russia use hence the laired defence comment :)
Agree that if it was the rebels then it would be a case of the muppet behind the button cocking up :(
Lizzie, picked up a report from Murdock news that the aircraft broke in two on impact but at the end of the day, if you take the nose of the fuselage of a 777 traveling at 400 knots then a few panels will fall off regardless :(
That is very true tigers, and of course rapid decompression could well tear the plane apart, with the further ripping off of components, like wings, in it's plunge to earth. It could explain why, from what I have seen in the footage taken at the crash sites, the main tail fin has been ripped apart but still partially attached to a piece of bulkhead.
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SA11 Gadfly (BUK M1) in stand alone mode is not an automatic launching system, it is only auto launching when integrated into an air defence management system .. it requires operator input, which "should" be of a skilled variety .... problem with the "separatists" is they have been given the kit but not the training.
IMHO the fact that the separatists were boasting about downing a cargo plane in the same area at the same time is a clear indication that they screwed up by misidentifying their target and shot down the civilian jet.
Methinks Putin will, eventually, have to admit the separatists did it, as my research dos not show the Ukraine forces having missiles capable of such action - although I could easily be wrong.
Spot on, the system requires a skilled and well trained operator. The Russians by accounts I have seen are struggling to recruit Russians with the relevant experience to fight in Ukraine. They are currently heavily advertising for tank drivers and crew. Although there is without a doubt GRU officers in Ukraine, those directly involved in the fighting are 'volunteers' with some previous military experience as part of the Russian 'plausible deniability'.
The SAM system will require a skilled crew and trained operator who is current on the latest operational procedures. The rush to get the system into the field may well have cut many corners on this. Military aircraft in a combat area will very often be being quiet, so no IFF would be transmitted, stopping blue-on-blue is controlled by operational awareness of all the allied parties involved on the day.
A video was put up on Youtube by the Russian terrorists boasting on the shooting down on another Ukrainian AN-24 cargo plane and then hastily removed! I think this has been a mistake by the terrorists as I don't think they deliberately targeted the civil airline.
The West since 1923 have always turned a blind eye to Russians slaughtering Ukrainians, now hopefully they will act even if it is just for their own self interest. This mass build up by the Russians of armour and 'advanced' SAM system in Ukraine since the signing of the EU agreement by the Ukrainian president has been largely ignored by the west and the MSM, with tragic consequences with increasing deaths in Ukraine, including civilians. This mistake by the terrorists has now spread this into the wider world.
If Putin tries to spin his way out of this, he will just be digging himself into a bigger hole. The propaganda on Ukraine in the Russian media has been a pack of lies from day one, but has become totally disgusting in the last few weeks with for example a woman describing how Ukrainian troops dismembered her 9 year old child before killing him, except the mother has now been traced as a Russian actresses and there are many other disgraceful examples. Dr Joseph Goebbels would have been proud. :( :( :( :(
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This one, the last one, the air France one, various others, constant delays and cancellations, I was at the opening day of T5 at Heathrow, lost bags, the tricks and turns of budget airlines, getting to the airport, getting from the airport to where you need to be, and a generally miserable total experience. Why on earth do people still want to fly unless absolutely essential ???
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The Russians have suggested that it was Ukrainian forces trying to shoot down Putin's plane as he was returning from South America and they got the wrong plane! ::)
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The Russians have suggested that it was Ukrainian forces trying to shoot down Putin's plane as he was returning from South America and they got the wrong plane! ::)
There are stupid people on all sides but I doubt any of them are THAT stupid ;D
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The Russians have suggested that it was Ukrainian forces trying to shoot down Putin's plane as he was returning from South America and they got the wrong plane! ::)
There are stupid people on all sides but I doubt any of them are THAT stupid ;D
Bit of a stupid suggestion in the first place really. :-\ ;D Time will tell..... ::)
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Until the black boxes are recovered and the data analysed, or some actually puts their hands up, this is all conjecture...
There has also been speculation that rather than a Soviet made Buk system, there's a Chinese shoulder fired system capable of hitting targets at 32,000 feet which might have been used...
Imagine that :-\ two Malaysian Airlines 777s being involved in catastophic incidents and both with Chinese passengers...
And where better to do that than over an area currently in turmoil ::)
That said, it wouldn't be the first aircraft to fall out of the sky with no warning, and given the recent warnings over threats from reconstructed electrical devices, again where better to drop a passenger aircraft than somewhere that at least three completely unrelated (to the perpetrators cause) groups will be blamed for it...
Say a person had a real grudge against KFC. If they detonated a car bomb outside KFC in Belfast who would get the blame? Certainly not a disgruntled KFC customer... more likely the IRA or one of their ilk... smoke and mirrors...
Also think back to TWA800, which went bang all by itself.
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here is that telephone conversation thing they are talking about
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28363169
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here is that telephone conversation thing they are talking about
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28363169
Listening to those words and if it is proved to be genuine then the arrogant pricks have just lost any credibility with the world >:(
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...and into that if they can prove it was a Russian bit of kit that brought the plane down. :o
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...and into that if they can prove it was a Russian bit of kit that brought the plane down. :o
99% chance it was Russian kit Tunnie as all sides have pretty much the same :(
The only question left is which side pressed the button >:(
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...and into that if they can prove it was a Russian bit of kit that brought the plane down. :o
99% chance it was Russian kit Tunnie as all sides have pretty much the same :(
The only question left is which side pressed the button >:(
Good money on the Chinese...
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there is a serious disorder in ukraine.. and in that mess, I think some could easily exploit the situation..
and a civil plane crash could take the whole attention to that area with many consequences..
so imo question is who would desire a situation like that :(
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Video showing the Buk SAM launcher in Krasnodon where it has been withdrawn across the border into Russia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE)
The Russian Terrorists in Ukraine are passing the Black Boxes across to their controllers in Russia, so don't hold your breath on anybody getting the original data. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Video showing the Buk SAM launcher in Krasnodon where it has been withdrawn across the border into Russia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE)
The Russian Terrorists in Ukraine are passing the Black Boxes across to their controllers in Russia, so don't hold your breath on anybody getting the original data. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Yep, and as shown on BBC News it has two missiles, out of the four they are equipped with, missing.
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Video showing the Buk SAM launcher in Krasnodon where it has been withdrawn across the border into Russia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE)
The Russian Terrorists in Ukraine are passing the Black Boxes across to their controllers in Russia, so don't hold your breath on anybody getting the original data. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Yep, and as shown on BBC News it has two missiles, out of the four they are equipped with, missing.
so one went on this ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28345039
and the other ?? Although the rebels "claim" to have shot down two fighters ... I expect that will be their excuse for the 2 missing missiles .. :(
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President Obama has now stated clearly that a missile brought the plane down after being fired from an area of Ukraine controlled by Pro-Russian separatists.
He is after answers and assistance from Putin, and that reaction will now detirmine what else happens.
80 children died in the crash according to BBC reports. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
My God is man not finished with war??!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Yet again I feel I must remind us all of the following:
The Essence of Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679)
As Thomas Hobbes rightly summed up:
"Hereby it is manifest , that during the time men live without common Power to keep them all in awe, they are in a condition which is called Warre; and such a warre, as is of every man, against every man. For WARRE , consisteth not in Battell onely, or the act of fighting; but in a tract of time, wherein the Will to contend by Battell is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of Time, is to be considered in the nature of Warre; as it is in the nature of Weather. For as the nature of Foul weather , lyeth not in a showre or two of rain; but in an an inclination thereto of many dayes together: So the nature of War, consisteth not in actual fighting: but in the known disposition thereto, during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is PEACE."
Hobbes, T. Leviathan pp. 185, 186 Penguin (1651)
Overall a warning from history for the future you could say; BUT IS ANY MAN LISTENING??!!
Will man not be satisfied until all the children, the love issue of a woman and her gift to life, are dead, our future destroyed?! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Video showing the Buk SAM launcher in Krasnodon where it has been withdrawn across the border into Russia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE)
The Russian Terrorists in Ukraine are passing the Black Boxes across to their controllers in Russia, so don't hold your breath on anybody getting the original data. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Yep, and as shown on BBC News it has two missiles, out of the four they are equipped with, missing.
I counted THREE seperate top stabiliser fins on that Launcher with the third missile from the left missing ???
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Video showing the Buk SAM launcher in Krasnodon where it has been withdrawn across the border into Russia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE)
The Russian Terrorists in Ukraine are passing the Black Boxes across to their controllers in Russia, so don't hold your breath on anybody getting the original data. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Yep, and as shown on BBC News it has two missiles, out of the four they are equipped with, missing.
I counted THREE seperate top stabiliser fins on that Launcher with the third missile from the left missing ???
Look again and you will see two missing :y
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Locals have reported two explosions in the air followed by an explosion as it hit the ground. :( :( :( :'(
Lavrov Putin's Foreign minister henchman has said today that it is all Ukraine's fault for defending their territory against the Russian terrorists and Russia is now considering direct strikes against Ukraine. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Russia is now trying to turn the indefensible to their advantage, in their pursuit of annexing East Ukraine, not that their is any deterrent, with Obummer and the EU both being evasive on any action including further sanctions. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Even the Kremlin's international propaganda channel RT is struggling with their propaganda on this one, where Western employees have been regularly resigning over their reporting standards, including another one today, where they are expected to constantly spread the Kremlin view on what the world and events should look like.
http://www.interpretermag.com/rt-covers-the-shooting-down-of-mh17/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/rt-covers-the-shooting-down-of-mh17/)
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there is a serious disorder in ukraine.. and in that mess, I think some could easily exploit the situation..
and a civil plane crash could take the whole attention to that area with many consequences..
so imo question is who would desire a situation like that :(
The person who thinks he will benefit from the re-imposition of a Cold War, because he has no thought of the benefit of his people, only his own power and self-aggrandisement :-X
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President Obama has now stated clearly that a missile brought the plane down after being fired from an area of Ukraine controlled by Pro-Russian separatists.
that very same president Obama told the israil that he is supporting to bomb the palestinians where there are children.. ::)
so really cant distinguish what he wants.. war or peace :D
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I just watched a YouTube video of what looked like dash cam footage from a passing truck. The plane was in full view right in front of it coming down, and.. Well... I'm going to have nightmares tonight after watching it :-\
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BbyZYgSXdyw
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BbyZYgSXdyw
In the end bastwards trying to justify their evil actions! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
This is ugly war. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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I just watched a YouTube video of what looked like dash cam footage from a passing truck. The plane was in full view right in front of it coming down, and.. Well... I'm going to have nightmares tonight after watching it :-\
You can sleep easy :y
That is historical footage of a freighter crashing on takeoff from Kabul iirc when its load shifted... key points:
1. Boeing 777 only has 2 engines, not 4.
2. B777 is a completely different shape, longer with more slender wings.
3. Malaysian Airlines livery is bright red and blue on a white background, not military grey ::)
Don't believe everything you see on tinterweb :y
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Who is going to stop him?
Obummer is a pacifist, has no interest in foreign affairs (a major foreign policy update has been sitting in his in-tray for 3 years waiting to be signed off!) and he is dangerously clueless when it comes to everything international diplomacy. He has started all of his speeches on Ukraine, by telling the enemy what he isn't going to do. This is the equivalent of telling your opponent in poker what your cards are. Idiots like this appease until all other options are untenable so it leads to war, when a much earlier robust response would have avoided it. I'm now convinced that him and Putin will start WWIII between them, probably over the Baltic's. MH-17 shows that when you start a war, you are only partially in control of events which is why they so often escalate out of control. The assassination of two people led to the death of millions in WWI.
In each of his speeches on Ukraine his first sentence has ruled out supplying any lethal military aid to Ukraine. Anybody with a smattering of strategic brain cells knows that you keep the enemy guessing and make him expend time and effort on trying to work out your intentions. A much more robust response over MH 17 would have been, unless Russia backs off supplying heavy equipment to the Russian terrorists, which is killing our innocent civilians, we will not supply troops, but we will supply the Ukrainian Government with whatever military aid they request to match and defeat the terrorists. By this I mean anything short of Nuclear weapons: Drones, cruise missiles, F15's, F16's, Apache helicopters, Abrams tanks they will all be on the table. Putin would then have known he was in a no win situation where the airline tragedy actually gave him a credible bug out scenario, but Putin's buoyed by the west's pathetic response, he has been left with a free hand to carry on destroying Ukraine, while the west does nothing. Putin has now closed his bug-out with domestic reputation intact window of opportunity. :( :( :( :(
A Russian military strategist in Latvia has already worked out that they only need to put about 500 little green men into Latvia and he will be on his way to having his bridge to Kalingrad and will have destroyed NATO as a credible European defence force in the process. The EU and the US would call it an internal problem, with NATO currently having no forces to deal with such a situation or currently have the training courses to train the Baltic counties local security police and special forces to deal with it either. :o :o :o :o
http://www.interpretermag.com/500-donetsk-type-militants-could-end-latvias-existence-as-unified-state-moscow-expert-says/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/500-donetsk-type-militants-could-end-latvias-existence-as-unified-state-moscow-expert-says/)
Now lets look at what the European leaders will do:
Merkel in all of her political career as chancellor has always backed away from policy commitments in the light of opposition, to the point of abandoning the policy. I'm sure with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink from Putin: You give me a free hand in Ukraine and I will see you all right on your gas at the right price and your sale of VW's, BMW's and Merc. will always be welcome in Moscow, she would agree to this unofficial back door deal.
Cameron will do whatever his focus groups tell him will make him and his party the most polular for re-election next May.The man has no personal principals that I have ever seen. His guide to policies and spin are what today's focus group' results tell him will make him most popular.
France will not want to do anything which interferes with their nice little earner of rearming Russia with western standard weapons for use against us. >:( >:( >:( >:(
All other EU countries either have too many economic problems due to the Euro, insufficient political clout or both.
EU foreign commission lady ashton (no capitals I'm afraid she isn't worth the effort of pressing the shift key) has been an frightful embarrassment even by EU standards and as a life long pacifist and ex-cnd secretary, no more needs to be said. :(
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Cant help wondering how the last 24 hours would have panned out if the plane was full of American Citizens ?
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Cant help wondering how the last 24 hours would have panned out if the plane was full of American Citizens ?
Over the last couple of days the media has listed the nationalities and numbers of dead from each country, but there has been a vague number of people from 'other countries' ::)
Surely they can tell at a glance at the passenger manifest exactly how many people were on board and what their nationality was? ::)
Unless no one wants to admit there were American citizens on board? ::) :-\
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Who is going to stop him?
Obummer is a pacifist, has no interest in foreign affairs (a major foreign policy update has been sitting in his in-tray for 3 years waiting to be signed off!) and he is dangerously clueless when it comes to everything international diplomacy. He has started all of his speeches on Ukraine, by telling the enemy what he isn't going to do. This is the equivalent of telling your opponent in poker what your cards are. Idiots like this appease until all other options are untenable so it leads to war, when a much earlier robust response would have avoided it. I'm now convinced that him and Putin will start WWIII between them, probably over the Baltic's. MH-17 shows that when you start a war, you are only partially in control of events which is why they so often escalate out of control. The assassination of two people led to the death of millions in WWI.
In each of his speeches on Ukraine his first sentence has ruled out supplying any lethal military aid to Ukraine. Anybody with a smattering of strategic brain cells knows that you keep the enemy guessing and make him expend time and effort on trying to work out your intentions. A much more robust response over MH 17 would have been, unless Russia backs off supplying heavy equipment to the Russian terrorists, which is killing our innocent civilians, we will not supply troops, but we will supply the Ukrainian Government with whatever military aid they request to match and defeat the terrorists. By this I mean anything short of Nuclear weapons: Drones, cruise missiles, F15's, F16's, Apache helicopters, Abrams tanks they will all be on the table. Putin would then have known he was in a no win situation where the airline tragedy actually gave him a credible bug out scenario, but Putin's buoyed by the west's pathetic response, he has been left with a free hand to carry on destroying Ukraine, while the west does nothing. Putin has now closed his bug-out with domestic reputation intact window of opportunity. :( :( :( :(
A Russian military strategist in Latvia has already worked out that they only need to put about 500 little green men into Latvia and he will be on his way to having his bridge to Kalingrad and will have destroyed NATO as a credible European defence force in the process. The EU and the US would call it an internal problem, with NATO currently having no forces to deal with such a situation or currently have the training courses to train the Baltic counties local security police and special forces to deal with it either. :o :o :o :o
http://www.interpretermag.com/500-donetsk-type-militants-could-end-latvias-existence-as-unified-state-moscow-expert-says/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/500-donetsk-type-militants-could-end-latvias-existence-as-unified-state-moscow-expert-says/)
Now lets look at what the European leaders will do:
Merkel in all of her political career as chancellor has always backed away from policy commitments in the light of opposition, to the point of abandoning the policy. I'm sure with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink from Putin: You give me a free hand in Ukraine and I will see you all right on your gas at the right price and your sale of VW's, BMW's and Merc. will always be welcome in Moscow, she would agree to this unofficial back door deal.
Cameron will do whatever his focus groups tell him will make him and his party the most polular for re-election next May.The man has no personal principals that I have ever seen. His guide to policies and spin are what today's focus group' results tell him will make him most popular.
France will not want to do anything which interferes with their nice little earner of rearming Russia with western standard weapons for use against us. >:( >:( >:( >:(
All other EU countries either have too many economic problems due to the Euro, insufficient political clout or both.
EU foreign commission lady ashton (no capitals I'm afraid she isn't worth the effort of pressing the shift key) has been an frightful embarrassment even by EU standards and as a life long pacifist and ex-cnd secretary, no more needs to be said. :(
Nobody is the answer to that one.
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I just watched a YouTube video of what looked like dash cam footage from a passing truck. The plane was in full view right in front of it coming down, and.. Well... I'm going to have nightmares tonight after watching it :-\
You can sleep easy :y
That is historical footage of a freighter crashing on takeoff from Kabul iirc when its load shifted... key points:
1. Boeing 777 only has 2 engines, not 4.
2. B777 is a completely different shape, longer with more slender wings.
3. Malaysian Airlines livery is bright red and blue on a white background, not military grey ::)
Don't believe everything you see on tinterweb :y
What can I say I don't know my planes... Couldn't identify a Boeing from a tiger moth! (Had to search for another plane name) either way though, that video I watched showed me a big plane, hitting the floor and blowing up :o
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If we do nothing , then we are saying it is alright to shoot down civilian planes. How many more would be acceptable. 5? 10? before anyone does anything.
I can't see why the black box recorders are important. It isn't as though when they rewind it is going to say "look out , incoming buk SAM missile"
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Is there a connection between this one and the one that "went missing" a few months ago? Did they ever find it? Wasn't that the same airline?
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If we do nothing , then we are saying it is alright to shoot down civilian planes. How many more would be acceptable. 5? 10? before anyone does anything.
I can't see why the black box recorders are important. It isn't as though when they rewind it is going to say "look out , incoming buk SAM missile"
No your right, but it does help to rule out anything else, ie lack of Pilots talking to each other about another issue.
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This sums up the scum that are terrorising East Ukraine. After killing 295 people: They have fired shots to stop the agreed OSCE observers access to the site and have taken away 38 bodies to an unknown destination. They have asked Russia for help in removing the rest of the bodies. No doubt so they can be sanitised of missile shrapnel before being released. >:( >:( >:( >:(
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-152-separatists-block-access-to-mh17-crash-site/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-152-separatists-block-access-to-mh17-crash-site/)
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Is there a connection between this one and the one that "went missing" a few months ago? Did they ever find it? Wasn't that the same airline?
It would appear there is no connection (although the Russian RT Channel where on that one yesterday big time), they never found it and yes its the same carrier.
And they say things come in three's :(
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If we do nothing , then we are saying it is alright to shoot down civilian planes. How many more would be acceptable. 5? 10? before anyone does anything.
I can't see why the black box recorders are important. It isn't as though when they rewind it is going to say "look out , incoming buk SAM missile"
No your right, but it does help to rule out anything else, ie lack of Pilots talking to each other about another issue.
Yes, actually quite important... if 777s start falling out of the sky for no apparent reason then everyone needs to know why :-\
The two main focuses in this case are why the aircraft was routed over Ukraine in the first place, and whether eastern European airspace needs reconsidering...
Perhaps the Qatari super hub isn't such a white elephant afterall ::)
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There is, IMHO, rather a lot of uninformed*, politically motivated*, press led* (delete as appropriate) stupidity being spouted here ...
Just "What" do you want/expect the americans*/australians*/british*/etc* (delete as appropriate) to actually do ??
Invade ?? - An instant recipe for WW3 - and any "plan" to send in troops from ANY country without a full UN mandate would be seen as an invasion by many parties, especially the Russians who are STILL a Major and a Nuclear Power.
Any attempt to get a UN mandate for the use of armed forces to intervene would simply be blocked by the Russians and the Chinese, and would take weeks of arguing anyway.
Putin has an Agenda.. quite what and why, no one knows, or is sure of. He is clever and ruthless, and knows that, in reality, the "west" is impotent UNLESS AND UNTIL THE WEST WISHES TO DECLARE WAR ON RUSSIA .. because that is what would have to happen ... and the consequences of that are too immense to contemplate.
As for the idea of applying sanctions ... sanctions don't work when the country involved supplies the majority of goods required by other countries ..they might work on an importer, but if folks want something .. they'll still get it.
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This sums up the scum that are terrorising East Ukraine. After killing 295 people: They have fired shots to stop the agreed OSCE observers access to the site and have taken away 38 bodies to an unknown destination. They have asked Russia for help in removing the rest of the bodies. No doubt so they can be sanitised of missile shrapnel before being released. >:( >:( >:( >:(
If they are released...... :(
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There is, IMHO, rather a lot of uninformed*, politically motivated*, press led* (delete as appropriate) stupidity being spouted here ...
Just "What" do you want/expect the americans*/australians*/british*/etc* (delete as appropriate) to actually do ??
Invade ?? - An instant recipe for WW3 - and any "plan" to send in troops from ANY country without a full UN mandate would be seen as an invasion by many parties, especially the Russians who are STILL a Major and a Nuclear Power.
Any attempt to get a UN mandate for the use of armed forces to intervene would simply be blocked by the Russians and the Chinese, and would take weeks of arguing anyway.
Putin has an Agenda.. quite what and why, no one knows, or is sure of. He is clever and ruthless, and knows that, in reality, the "west" is impotent UNLESS AND UNTIL THE WEST WISHES TO DECLARE WAR ON RUSSIA .. because that is what would have to happen ... and the consequences of that are too immense to contemplate.
As for the idea of applying sanctions ... sanctions don't work when the country involved supplies the majority of goods required by other countries ..they might work on an importer, but if folks want something .. they'll still get it.
Good point, well presented :y
Incidentally, given the apparent lack of order in Eastern Ukraine, is there grounds to put UN Peacekeepers on the ground :-\
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If we do nothing , then we are saying it is alright to shoot down civilian planes. How many more would be acceptable. 5? 10? before anyone does anything.
I can't see why the black box recorders are important. It isn't as though when they rewind it is going to say "look out , incoming buk SAM missile"
No your right, but it does help to rule out anything else, ie lack of Pilots talking to each other about another issue.
Yes, actually quite important... if 777s start falling out of the sky for no apparent reason then everyone needs to know why :-\
The two main focuses in this case are why the aircraft was routed over Ukraine in the first place, and whether eastern European airspace needs reconsidering...
Perhaps the Qatari super hub isn't such a white elephant afterall ::)
If I had a pound for every flight I had been on that flew over a conflict zone I could have retired 20 years ago. I have watched, especially at night, numerous wars/conflicts taking place below me as I transited overhead (usually at around 24,000ft in a C130), it is nothing unusual.
The rebels were not known to have the SA11 (operational to 70,000 ft) but only to have MANPADS (operational to 20,000 ft) so there was, at the time, no reason to limit flights above 32,00 ft, (the bottom end of commercial airline operations) and many, many flights went past without a problem, the route is a main one from Europe to Asia ..
Once again, the press prove that 20-20 hindsight is the worlds best vision .. perhaps one day they'll actually ask a question BEFORE the event .. rather than after it ?
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Incidentally, given the apparent lack of order in Eastern Ukraine, is there grounds to put UN Peacekeepers on the ground :-\
I'm sure the Russians would happily provide troops for such a mission! :-X
Oh hold on, they more or less are anyway! ::)
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Agree that Nige has hit the nail on the head, again :y
I wonder if Ukraine are now regretting giving there nukes away so easy now after pressure from Obama and his chums :-\
As for where will it all stop, when Putin has his buffer between the west and mother Russia.
Nato already have the Typhoon and other countries aircraft flying patrols over Estonia and iirc, Latvia because Putin started making veiled threats.
Sorry Rod, the eastern part of (what we know as Ukraine) has gone :(
Draw a line in the sand by building a nice fence and between the Black Sea and the Baltic and hope Putin doesn't try to force the wests hand because as has been said, it would end up tin foil hat time :'(
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There is, IMHO, rather a lot of uninformed*, politically motivated*, press led* (delete as appropriate) stupidity being spouted here ...
Just "What" do you want/expect the americans*/australians*/british*/etc* (delete as appropriate) to actually do ??
Invade ?? - An instant recipe for WW3 - and any "plan" to send in troops from ANY country without a full UN mandate would be seen as an invasion by many parties, especially the Russians who are STILL a Major and a Nuclear Power.
Any attempt to get a UN mandate for the use of armed forces to intervene would simply be blocked by the Russians and the Chinese, and would take weeks of arguing anyway.
Putin has an Agenda.. quite what and why, no one knows, or is sure of. He is clever and ruthless, and knows that, in reality, the "west" is impotent UNLESS AND UNTIL THE WEST WISHES TO DECLARE WAR ON RUSSIA .. because that is what would have to happen ... and the consequences of that are too immense to contemplate.
As for the idea of applying sanctions ... sanctions don't work when the country involved supplies the majority of goods required by other countries ..they might work on an importer, but if folks want something .. they'll still get it.
Well these are fine words. My point is at what point do we the ordinary people say enough is enough. It is quite easy and comfortable to sit back and say someone ought to do something about the KILLING (because that is what it is) in Ukraine/Syria/Egypt/Israel/Palestine/Libya/Africa (delete as appropriate) where is the UN, why don't they do anything? Well you answered that by saying that the UN is toothless.
No one wants another world war but without doing something e.g. more substantial sanctions(The Germans for example) and a show of armed support then in the case of eastern Europe in particular Putin will continue to have his way building his empire. I actually think we can be pretty sure that is what he is doing - the signs are there.
Someone elsewhere said today that anyone wearing a balaclava and carrying a rifle should be a target. Bit strong but what would anyone have said if the West had given five minutes warning before destroying any and all missile kit in Ukraine that could shoot down innocent civilian planes?
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(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmUgD7VOpNa0VWi5iHKhK85osUcU3R6_zg54wIlX7d0gSKZHrZ2w) :-X
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSpmVHF6FlrgwbjaqdtlGaEVDMWULK3FpNB-GJ_ZVhzwnqE1hRmA)
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;D ;D
I have just realised it is gone six so time for a calming drink and some BBQ ribs.
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As successive British Governments have forgotten their prime duty, Defence of the Realm, we are now impotent to take any individual action, other than nuclear, which is never to be used other than reactively, against a major threat. Also Nato, since the end of the Cold War, has allowed its combined conventional strength - and will - to decline to a level that is frightening in its complacency. >:( >:( >:(
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Disagree that NATO didn't know, they were briefed in the US on the 30th of June.
http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3455 (http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3455)
There have been numerous geo-located pictures of Russian convoys crossing from Russia into Ukraine (including a Russian border guard posting some for a short while on Facebook, before I think he was relocated to Siberia ;D). This includes several pictures of a medium range Strela-10 in Russian terrorists hands.
There has been a massive open escalation of support for the Russian terrorists with reinforcements of not only numbers, but heavy equipments including T64 Tanks, APC's and SAMS as air superiority is one of the advantages the Ukrainian army has. Since the signing of the agreement EU agreement on the 27th of June and the ending of the ceasefire and the Ukrainian ATO successes, Russia is trying to currently a save a losing situation. In Russia they were initially advertising for ex-military aged up to 40 for fighting in Ukraine, in the last few weeks they have also been looking for tank crews and other mechanised specialists. Although there are GRU undercover troops in Ukraine (no different to special forces in any conflict) they are in the background, with the masked ex-Russian troops the face of the operation along with a few ex-Ukrainian police and Ukrainian gangsters and opportunists.
Most of this information does not appear in the MSM who had largely lost interest in what is happening in Ukraine but does elsewhere. All of the responsible websites like The Interpretor only change something from a possible to a likely when it is independently confirmed and a probably true when confirmed from multiple sources.
Look back over their daily diary for the last few weeks and you will get the picture.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/)
I agree hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm sure from what has been said so far, like many aviation tragedies, this one has been caused by a series of events, including inexperienced operators using an old Buk system. I'm sure from what I've seen so far that they did not deliberately target a civilian airline and thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian AN-26, but that is the fog of war. Now Putin is trying to blame the Ukrainian government for fighting against the invasion of their sovereign nation by Russia, after the illegal annexation of Crimea, which of course breaks International laws and treaties that Russia has signed.
Airlines have already rerouted, although I think the treat has receded as there are picture of the Buk systems including one with two missiles missing going back across the Russian border.
Personally, what I am find particularly odious is the Russian claims that it was nothing to do with us, where all of the evidence is pointing in their direction, but this is sadly par for the course as it is part of their propaganda DNA.
I don't think anybody is suggesting NATO troops on the ground as the Nuclear powers have always avoided, quite rightly, direct confrontation, but both side have fought wars against each other by proxy through the supply of training and equipment of the side they support and it does make a difference as we saw with the Russian invasion in Afghanistan.
The MH-17 airline tragedy highlights the dangers of when things go wrong and through miscalculation escalate out of control. This is why I'm all for clipping Putin's wings in ways that will not start WWIII, before something like a confrontation in the Baltic's does start a major war.
If sides had been more peacefully assertive and communicative before WWI I think it may have been avoided as the treaties from 1815 largely preserved the peace in Europe until 1914, although with Hitler's aims I think WWII was probably unavoidable, but without WWI would not have happened. The current situation in Eastern Europe has many parallels to both events and IMO peaceful assertion is what is required. I think we all know that sanctions are at most an inconvenience with an overall economic cost rather than a game changer, but right now they are the best immediate option we have got, while Western Europe reduces it dependence on Russian energy. Russian companies have got to refinance over $700bn of western lending to their industries in the next 2 years and making this more difficult / expensive will hit their industries and economy hard and make Putin's job much harder and position as leader more difficult where the people that keep him power do so on the tacit understanding that their standard of living constantly improves.
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This Chronology of events has been put together by The Interpreter Magazine. For them to accept something as a fact it has to be collaborated from multiple sources and with images and films they have from local citizens have to be geo-located.
http://www.interpretermag.com/evidence-review-who-shot-down-mh17/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/evidence-review-who-shot-down-mh17/)
It looks like the EU is going to get tough on sanctions at last. Will it make any difference in the short term to what is happening in Ukraine? Unlikely, where Russia is still escalating the situation, including 'Hamas' style rocket attacks from inside Russia over the Russian / Ukrainian border at Ukrainian border stations and the military units guarding the border. Ukraine has regained much of the border, but there are still entry and exit routes being used by the Russian terrorists and their ever increasing heavy equipment in terms of quality and quantity from terrorist training camps set up in Russia around the city of Rostov. Will sanctions make a difference long term, yes, where the combined GDP's of those imposing them which includes the US, Canada, EU, Japan and other OSCE members is over $35tn against a Russian economy of less than $2tn. EU-Russian trade is over $100bn with Russia enjoying about a $40bn trade surplus. It is already affecting their energy sector as they are finding it much more difficult and expensive to refinance their borrowings and with the latest EU sanctions being talked about for next week meaning that no western bank is going to want new untradeable loans on their books.
What we are all going to have to accept is that we have a rogue, pariah, gangster state with Putin the chief gangster on our door steps, which the west in going to have to continue to confront and control.
There are rumours going round that the US is going to grant Ukraine favoured nation status and supply military aid which will certainly help Ukraine defend their country against an illegal attack and terror war from the 'neighbour from hell'.
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Europe in general has been utterly naive in giving a hostage to fortune by allowing itself to become so dependent on Russian Energy. In our case, the "City" has effectively been the de facto money launderer for all the 'dirty' money that flowed out of Russia since the end of the cold war. All these chickens are now coming home to roost, and with a vengeance! >:(
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::)
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/july/23/fixing-facts-around-the-policy-is-the-us-government-manipulating-social-media.aspx