Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Debs. on 26 November 2011, 18:07:43
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Well, the pup-mobile misbehaved on cue at the meet today and Jimbob`s laptop was on the spot to capture the problem: it`s a code 19 again, and again.......and again.......and all the way home too! :o
Having fitted a new VX-sourced crank sensor about a month ago, I would never have imagined the pup-mobile`s ongoing low/no-idle and stalling issues would be continuing/worsening as the result of the new one being supplied as-faulty/failing......It was the first thing I changed when the car began misbehaving, too! :-[
Jimbob also reset the 'wonky' idle trims whilst he was inside my ECU. :y
....at least the fault is now "identified" for sure. ;)
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Someone else reported Vx sourced sensor letting go just a few months down line too :(
You can easily tell from exhausts that quality has dipped, wonder if same can be said about electrical components :-\
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Sounds like the bean counters have been poking their noses in again.
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Sounds like a warranty claim is needed.
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Yes, when we 1st looked at it a few weeks ago, there was a 'non present' 19 stored....As expected due to a failed sensor. At that time it was deleted and didnt come back while we played with the maf issue.
Today, a 'non present' 19 again, deleted.
Started car, it cut out, and NP 19 back again..Deleted
Started car, recorded diags, cut out, 19 Present appeared.
I think thats pretty conclusive.
Live data looked fine for everything else.
Reset the block learn data too for O2 and IAC, will be interesting to see what they do.
(Debs now has basic live data viewing capability)
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even a NP 19 is a bad sign
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I had one a few months back. Vauxhall wouldn't swap the faulty sensor, they wanted the car in to do it themselves, if it was the sensor faulty there would be no charge for fitting. Lickily it turned out I was right and there was no charge.
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I had one a few months back. Vauxhall wouldn't swap the faulty sensor, they wanted the car in to do it themselves, if it was the sensor faulty there would be no charge for fitting. Lickily it turned out I was right and there was no charge.
:o Trouble is, I simply haven`t got £90. to risk on their tests: in case they assert the crank sensor is not at fault (even though I/we know it is!).....it`d be my bad-luck for them to say otherwise. :'(
If my car wont start (as of this morning), how can I get it to the dealers anyway? :-\.......all I can do is take off the 'new' sensor and take it (with the receipt) by train/bus to a VX dealer.......although it`s now not possible to return it to the dealer I purchased the sensor from; that Lookers branch (Wallasey) was closing-down at the end of the week that I went there! :(
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Had the same Debs a while back - my Elite wouldn't start, code 19. Fitted a new Vx crank sensor - car started immediately. All OK for around 1 month - then car wouldn't start - code 19 again. Took faulty one back to Vx for exchange - was told refit to car and get car to Vx - if they found it to be faulty they would swap it foc. So for a £50 sensor I have to refit the faulty one and get my car transported 12 miles to get my £50 back - its bo**ocks - and they know it - paid the £50 for a new one, fitted it and its been ok since.
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It may be worth someone sending Debs a known good used sensor.Far from ideal I know,but in the circumstances......
It would at least prove the theory of dodgy sensor and may help when dealing with VX customer disservice department. ;)
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It may be worth someone sending Debs a known good used sensor.Far from ideal I know,but in the circumstances......
It would at least prove the theory of dodgy sensor and may help when dealing with VX customer disservice department. ;)
Good idea Albs. :y
I spoke with the nearest dealer`s parts counter (early doors at 8.30a.m) and they said the car would have to come to them to be 'proven' to have a faulty component under part`s warranty, but as it wont start now, I`m clearly on my own! >:(
.....I`ll try posting in the 'parts wanted' for a used/good crank sensor (after I`ve checked which plug it has fitted). :y
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It may be worth someone sending Debs a known good used sensor.Far from ideal I know,but in the circumstances......
It would at least prove the theory of dodgy sensor and may help when dealing with VX customer disservice department. ;)
Good idea Albs. :y
I spoke with the nearest dealer`s parts counter (early doors at 8.30a.m) and they said the car would have to come to them to be 'proven' to have a faulty component under part`s warranty, but as it wont start now, I`m clearly on my own! >:(
.....I`ll try posting in the 'parts wanted' for a used/good crank sensor (after I`ve checked which plug it has fitted). :y
Yours should be oval plug Debs ;)
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By 'oval', do you mean rectangular with rounded corners?
If so, I have a genuine spare known working one here, it has 0261210 stamped on it if this helps identification
Jon
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By 'oval', do you mean rectangular with rounded corners?
If so, I have a genuine spare known working one here, it has 0261210 stamped on it if this helps identification
Jon
Hiya Jon,
Images below of the plug on my 'original' faulty crank-sensor.
The easily identifiable facet of this one (compared to the 'wrong' one) is the two protruding 'lugs' on either side of the front-outer edge of the plug.....This 'correct' plug is internally polarised (with channels) whilst the 'wrong' part has polarising ridges on the two longest outer sides and it is generally "more rectangular" in form.
.....keeping fingers crossed here! :-\
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8623.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8626.jpg)
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By 'oval', do you mean rectangular with rounded corners?
If so, I have a genuine spare known working one here, it has 0261210 stamped on it if this helps identification
Jon
Hiya Jon,
Images below of the plug on my 'original' faulty crank-sensor.
The easily identifiable facet of this one (compared to the 'wrong' one) is the two protruding 'lugs' on either side of the front-outer edge of the plug.....This 'correct' plug is internally polarised (with channels) whilst the 'wrong' part has polarising ridges on the two longest outer sides and it is generally "more rectangular" in form.
.....keeping fingers crossed here! :-\
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8623.jpg)
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8626.jpg)
Yep thats the "oval" one Debs - the rectangular on has square corners ;)
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...
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8623.jpg)
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Where'd you get that clamp? ???
I've not seen one of those for years!
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...
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8623.jpg)
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Where'd you get that clamp? ???
I've not seen one of those for years!
Car boot sale, Andy......TBH, all my tools are 'donkey`s' old; they were better made back then! :y
Pin vices and pin chucks seem unsaleable these days.....I use them for model-engineering projects.
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debs if no-one has got one spare i will pull a known working one off of one of my migs tomorrow for you :y
only borrowed though :P
pm me your address and i will get it in post to you :y
edit---after checking plug of course :-[
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Sorry Debs, been a bit busy - mine is the same as that, I can get it in the post in the morning if you want, just tell me if you want it :y
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Thanks to the kindness of OOF members: I now have two crank-sensors (one is a 'known-good' on loan as a reference).
The pup-mobile was a non-starter this morning (as expected).......so, I fitted one of the new arrivals, cleared the stored code 19 and the car started and ran well, but something interesting has surfaced upon comparison of the three sensors: mine (the non-starter) was bought new, 5 weeks ago from my nearest VX dealer (Lookers) it was supplied sealed in an official-looking GM parts bag, but seems markedly different in form from either of the two which OOF members have sent me. :-\
Look at the picture below: the obvious difference is the metal 'pip' on the face of the sensor (both similar) which are labelled Bosch....Whereas, the faulty one I bought at the dealer is labelled GM Siemens, which has a completely-smooth black face to the sensing head.
Upon measuring the GM Siemens sensor, it is 1.112mm shorter from the flange face to the sensor face than either of the Bosch units.
...might I have been sold a GM fake/cloned part? ???
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8629.jpg)
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Hmm. Spacing it further from the reluctor on the crank will reduce its' sensitivity. Maybe this, rather than failure of the part, has been your problem?
Could be the Siemens part is for a different application and has been incorrectly cross-referenced?
It would be interesting to see if the waveform at the output of the part meets Vauxhall's specifications. Maybe the dealer would care to measure it (free of charge, for thei own quality control purposes) and take this up with Vauxhall?
'Cor blimey! Look at that pig go! Delta wings and an afterburner on it! ;D
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Hi Debs
There are two listed for the Omega with the same plug, can you get a pic of the heads of the sensors and i'll be able to let for sure
cheers
Andy
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Hi Debs
There are two listed for the Omega with the same plug, can you get a pic of the heads of the sensors and i'll be able to let for sure
cheers
Andy
Ah-ha!....the "thot plickens"! ;D
Will do, Andy! :y
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Hi Debs
There are two listed for the Omega with the same plug, can you get a pic of the heads of the sensors and i'll be able to let for sure
cheers
Andy
Ok, here are crank sensors: the one pictured on the left: ID number 90 492 061, is the one supplied by Lookers VX (Wallasey) using info that they asked-for: registration number/M.Y and engine type etc. of the pup-mobile......the other, is one of the two sensors sent to me by OOF members: both of those Bosch units share the same ID number 0261210......all three, have exactly the same fitted-plug and cable length.
......Have they sold me the wrong one? >:(
(http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj241/CleverCollies/DSCF8632.jpg)
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Excellent news, hope thats the end of your problems, just the VX battle to go...
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Wouldn't surprise me if they sold you the wrong one, dealer system showed mine to be the rectangular plug. Found out months later when stranded in the middle of a busy junction that what I had bought as a spare was most definately not the right one >:(.
I am still not welcome at that parts desk after resolving the issue ;D
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Hi Debs
Ok the one you have listed as 90492061 is listed on EPC for use on X25XE Engine but it also say that range breakpoint information is not available which means the sensor was changed at some point during production but GM can't pinpoit at what chassis/engine number they changed them, this is why sometimes we have to go by guess work.
The other one in your pic is part number 90540743 and is listed for Y26SE, X30XE, Y32SE again with the above listed as well.
All i can say is if you have the oval plug sensor then also check the mounting part of the sensor head, if you look you will see that the first one has a slopped top and no reinforcement to the fixing plate/bolt hole.
On the other sensor it has a flat head and two small triangluar reinforcements to the fixing plate
so you need to change like for like and then you should have a problem, can't say if this works with pattern sensore though
Hope that helps and you can get sorted
Cheers
Andy
(Only a call away :y)
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Hi Debs
Ok the one you have listed as 90492061 is listed on EPC for use on X25XE Engine but it also say that range breakpoint information is not available which means the sensor was changed at some point during production but GM can't pinpoit at what chassis/engine number they changed them, this is why sometimes we have to go by guess work.
The other one in your pic is part number 90540743 and is listed for Y26SE, X30XE, Y32SE again with the above listed as well.
All i can say is if you have the oval plug sensor then also check the mounting part of the sensor head, if you look you will see that the first one has a slopped top and no reinforcement to the fixing plate/bolt hole.
On the other sensor it has a flat head and two small triangluar reinforcements to the fixing plate
so you need to change like for like and then you should have a problem, can't say if this works with pattern sensore though
Hope that helps and you can get sorted
Cheers
Andy
(Only a call away :y)
Thank you very much, Andy.....that`s EXACTLY the info I needed; I`ve been down to the dealer and (of course) his EPC said "No" ::)......but, after a looooooooooong discussion about them not being able to do much without a TECH-II session (his inference was that the part that I have already, is 'faulty', not 'incorrect') the parts chap eventually agreed that there might be a possibility that the 2.6/3.0/3.2 sensor is the one that I originally had from new......so, he`s ordered one in, to compare with my original dud one......Awaiting a call from him when the part arrives. ;)
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This is very interesting information. I've come across one or two cars in the past that have had persistent 19 codes present, and occasional stalling, despite new sensors fitted. Never did get to the bottom of any of them. Sensors OK, wiring perfect right back to ECU. ???
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There are also two different types of spark plug listed for the 2.5 V6,the later type being quite a bit more expensive than the earlier type. Ive no idea what the difference is between the two. :-\
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This is very interesting information. I've come across one or two cars in the past that have had persistent 19 codes present, and occasional stalling, despite new sensors fitted. Never did get to the bottom of any of them. Sensors OK, wiring perfect right back to ECU. ???
Indeed, Kevin. :y
Perhaps I should do a concise write-up on the V6 crank sensor variations for the maint. guide section with pictures and part numbers (thanks to AndyC)......Because the EPC shows only two (of three possible) crank-sensor applications for the 2.5, this clearly is a 'situation' others will visit. :-[
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There are also two different types of spark plug listed for the 2.5 V6,the later type being quite a bit more expensive than the earlier type. Ive no idea what the difference is between the two. :-\
Two electrode and four electrode? I thought the latter was only the 2.6, but maybe they changed mid 2.5 years?
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Nope - both twin electrode. Quads for DBW engines are yet another variant.The type listed on TC site are for earlier cars,dealers kept trying to charge me around 50% more than it stated on TC site so I went to AndyC. Andy then delved a bit deeper and discovered that there are two types for the 2.5 V6 and the later type are more expensive than the earlier type.
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This is very interesting information. I've come across one or two cars in the past that have had persistent 19 codes present, and occasional stalling, despite new sensors fitted. Never did get to the bottom of any of them. Sensors OK, wiring perfect right back to ECU. ???
Indeed, Kevin. :y
Perhaps I should do a concise write-up on the V6 crank sensor variations for the maint. guide section with pictures and part numbers (thanks to AndyC)......Because the EPC shows only two (of three possible) crank-sensor applications for the 2.5, this clearly is a 'situation' others will visit. :-[
Sounds a good idea :y
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Nope - both twin electrode. Quads for DBW engines are yet another variant.The type listed on TC site are for earlier cars,dealers kept trying to charge me around 50% more than it stated on TC site so I went to AndyC. Andy then delved a bit deeper and discovered that there are two types for the 2.5 V6 and the later type are more expensive than the earlier type.
Ahh - I remember that thread, I think :)
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Pupdate:
Just back from Lookers VX (Birkenhead) clutching the correct (new/replacement) crank-sensor.......which was exchanged efficiently and without extra-cost with the one incorrectly previously supplied (although, in accord with the EPC).
The parts counter chap (Stan), was very keen to sort out the problem quickly.....and is to be highly recommended for approachability and helpfulness......I did mention OOF so he now knows about us. 8)
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Excellent news, Debs. :y Nice to see a main dealer going beyond the call of duty to sort it out, too. :y
Kevin
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result!
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Well done Debs! Sorted! :y :y :y
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:y
Persistence pay off it seems. Superb thread.
Can I ask does anyone know what the innards of the crank sensor look like? I have always assumed that the mechanism was something very simple; some sort of magnet activated in response to a counterpart on the crank itself.
Any enlightenment?
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There's more than one type.
Haynes wiring diagrams show different 'schematics' within the symbols for them, some appear to be one coil, some two, and some have an active device inside, as far as I recall.
The one I dissected off our '95 2.0 had two coils inside, on/in a piece of 'pot-core' ferrite IIRC, I'll have a search when I get a chance and see if I can find the thread where I described it.
'Variable reluctance' I think is the term for this type of sensor/target wheel.
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Cheers Abiton,
It sounds like some sort of "Hall Effect" or variable potentiometer system. I look forward to seeing your post if you can find it.
Cheers :y
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The sensor is a variable reluctance sensor (VRS).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_reluctance_sensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_reluctance_sensor)
Essentially, a magnetic core with a coil wound round it. As a metal tooth on the crank passes the sensor, the magetic field around the coil collapses and induces a current in the coil.
The other type, with 2 coils, is often used where slower signals must be captured, such as on a camshaft sensor. A high frequency signal is fed to one coil and the current induced in the other coil is reduced as a metal tooth passes the tip of the sensor.
Hall effect sensors have also been used in this type of application.
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=71388.msg982426#msg982426
Reply #33 onwards.