Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: hotel21 on 06 January 2012, 22:47:50
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When we bought our present house it was a mortgage repo and needed decoration top to toe. And it got it.
The then current fashion 'must have' was artexed ceilings. Managed to dissuade her from artex on the walls, thank goodness but she managed to get all (and I mean ALL) roofs done in a 4 bed house....).
Question is, looks fine in bedrooms and toilets and stuff, but the lounge/dining room needs re-decorated overall. Would it be easier but messier to remove plasterboard roofing panels in entirety or knock biggest lumps off and simply place new boards on top of existing? House is 1960's ex-council stylee - big rooms but bog standard ceiling height - so, what does the group experience of OOF recommend?
I know what I intend to do but interested in the 'professional'/experienced DIY type comments... :y
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When we bought our present house it was a mortgage repo and needed decoration top to toe. And it got it.
The then current fashion 'must have' was artexed ceilings. Managed to dissuade her from artex on the walls, thank goodness but she managed to get all (and I mean ALL) roofs done in a 4 bed house....).
Question is, looks fine in bedrooms and toilets and stuff, but the lounge/dining room needs re-decorated overall. Would it be easier but messier to remove plasterboard roofing panels in entirety or knock biggest lumps off and simply place new boards on top of existing? House is 1960's ex-council stylee - big rooms but bog standard ceiling height - so, what does the group experience of OOF recommend?
I know what I intend to do but interested in the 'professional'/experienced DIY type comments... :y
Easiest way B
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In my last place one ceiling had been artexed and they just nailed plasterboard below and skimmed it. Nice and quick and hides things, until I came to rewire it :-X
Ken
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Get yer Stokie offspring up with a block of sandpaper, it should keep him out of mischief for a while.
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Easiest way B
But the question is, does it look like what it is, i.e. boards on top of a crappy surface??
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Get yer Stokie offspring up with a block of sandpaper, it should keep him out of mischief for a while.
That was seriously considered, alongwith a hooley bar and a hoover..... ;D
edit to explain what a hooley bar is, for the uninitiated.... :y
http://gearpatrol.com/blog/2010/09/03/halligan-hooligan-bar/
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If you intend to cover, and the existing is "solid" .. ie not falling off just unsightly, why not just have the whole thing skimmed by a competent plasterer ?? Unless the pattern is very deep a skim would cover it all over without reducing ceiling height ??
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The sitting room is quite subdued whilst the dining room is more the Alps style. Sadly they are joined into an 'L' shape so one runs into the other.
I am currently favouring complete removal and reboarding/replastering as that way, we will get a nice flat ceiling without incursion into roof height and/or feeling like the ceiling is the reflection of the sea in a force 8 swell....
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If you intend to cover, and the existing is "solid" .. ie not falling off just unsightly, why not just have the whole thing skimmed by a competent plasterer ?? Unless the pattern is very deep a skim would cover it all over without reducing ceiling height ??
That maybe the best way to go Broocie some earlie artexing contained large amounts of asbestos. Not the stuff you want to start disturbing by ripping out.
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If you intend to cover, and the existing is "solid" .. ie not falling off just unsightly, why not just have the whole thing skimmed by a competent plasterer ?? Unless the pattern is very deep a skim would cover it all over without reducing ceiling height ??
That maybe the best way to go Broocie some earlie artexing contained large amounts of asbestos. Not the stuff you want to start disturbing by ripping out.
Noted Tony, thanks. Job done circa 1991/1992 with a product called Newtex Gold. Just done a quick and dirty google and it appears that it is asbestos heavy so perhaps not the best of stuff to rip out willy nilly. :'(
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If you intend to cover, and the existing is "solid" .. ie not falling off just unsightly, why not just have the whole thing skimmed by a competent plasterer ?? Unless the pattern is very deep a skim would cover it all over without reducing ceiling height ??
That maybe the best way to go Broocie some earlie artexing contained large amounts of asbestos. Not the stuff you want to start disturbing by ripping out.
Noted Tony, thanks. Job done circa 1991/1992 with a product called Newtex Gold. Just done a quick and dirty google and it appears that it is asbestos heavy so perhaps not the best of stuff to rip out willy nilly. :'(
One of my neibours had artexing removed that contained asbestos the room and windows had to be sheeted up, the debree put in special bags and specially disposed of which added considerably to the cost of the re furbishment of the room
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If you intend to cover, and the existing is "solid" .. ie not falling off just unsightly, why not just have the whole thing skimmed by a competent plasterer ?? Unless the pattern is very deep a skim would cover it all over without reducing ceiling height ??
That maybe the best way to go Broocie some earlie artexing contained large amounts of asbestos. Not the stuff you want to start disturbing by ripping out.
Noted Tony, thanks. Job done circa 1991/1992 with a product called Newtex Gold. Just done a quick and dirty google and it appears that it is asbestos heavy so perhaps not the best of stuff to rip out willy nilly. :'(
One of my neibours had artexing removed that contained asbestos the room and windows had to sheeted up, the debree put in special bags and disposed of which added considerably to the cost of the re feurbishment
Not wanting to sound too hardnosed but I suppose its down to what and how you do the job..... :-X
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Yes the mess created ripping down a ceiling, is a lot, whereas putting up new boards below and a quick skim, and it doesn't matter too much how accurate you will not notice.
Ken
PS sell the place soon after, just like a car :y
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Get yer Stokie offspring up with a block of sandpaper, it should keep him out of mischief for a while.
That was seriously considered, alongwith a hooley bar and a hoover..... ;D
edit to explain what a hooley bar is, for the uninitiated.... :y
http://gearpatrol.com/blog/2010/09/03/halligan-hooligan-bar/
Funnily enough my son got me one of these as an Xmas present http://gearpatrol.com/blog/2008/04/16/stanley-fatmax-xtreme-fubar-utility-bar/
I wonder why ?.
Ken
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My thoughts were .. artex is not "flat" by definition ... therefore putting new boards over the existing artex and getting a level surface on all boards is going to be somewhat tricky.... :(
Assuming your existing surface is decent, and the ceiling is not distorted due to movement of the present boards, then a skim - done properly - would give a uniform flat surface.. ?
:(
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No coving:
Get new 3/8" plasterboards fixed to the existing ceiling, tape the joins, then skim flat.
Obviously, you'd need to ascertain the exact positions of the joists, often fixed at 16" centres and across the shortest span.
Done quite a few by this method now!
:y
If you've got coving:
A competent plasterer would be able to re-skim over the existing surface. Might need two skims.
;)
B.
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Artex is fairly easily removed with a steam wall paper stripper. :y :y It turns it into a gooey paste. I must admit though I've only removed it from the ceiling of a 6' x 3' downstairs toilet/'cloakroom'.
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Knock of the high spots then seal with a pvc sealer then plaster over the top. :y
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Artex is fairly easily removed with a steam wall paper stripper. :y :y It turns it into a gooey paste. I must admit though I've only removed it from the ceiling of a 6' x 3' downstairs toilet/'cloakroom'.
.... and how long did that take?? :-\
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Artex is fairly easily removed with a steam wall paper stripper. :y :y It turns it into a gooey paste. I must admit though I've only removed it from the ceiling of a 6' x 3' downstairs toilet/'cloakroom'.
That's right Andy. :y
I did the ceiling in the kitchen using a steamer (with flat plate) then scraped the result off.
Worked very well once I had a rhythm going with all the stuff coming away cleanly leaving the plaster board unmarked.
I can't remember how long the job took but I spread it over a couple of evenings - the room was about 17x11
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shitty crappy image but, hopefully you get the gist.
Dining room with Alps surface to the top, smoother surface of lounge to the bottom.
Yes. I know, crappy job, but I was a working guy with two kids trying to better himself on limited funds at the time...... :P ;D
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j298/hotel21/IMG_0211.jpg)
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We have polystyrene tiles, inherited in our house, took them down in the bathroom and what a pain, ended up using an Artex type substance to cover the mess............I would love newly plastered ceilings but suspect this would mean removing and replacing the whole ceiling, in every room of the house, I know it was the in thing at one time, i don't mind it but it is a fire hazard......... :-\ :-\
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shitty crappy image but, hopefully you get the gist.
Dining room with Alps surface to the top, smoother surface of lounge to the bottom.
Yes. I know, crappy job, but I was a working guy with two kids trying to better himself on limited funds at the time...... :P ;D
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j298/hotel21/IMG_0211.jpg)
That looks a little deep to skim .. :(
Perhaps try a small area with the steam treatment and see what the results are like and how long it takes ??? would give you some idea of how long to do the whole job ???
If you don't like the results or the time taken .. then the reboard option rises to the top ??
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That looks a little deep to skim ..
Perhaps try a small area with the steam treatment and see what the results are like and how long it takes would give you some idea of how long to do the whole job
If you don't like the results or the time taken .. then the reboard option rises to the top ??
Therein lies the root of my concerns.
Was unaware of the succeptability of Artex to a team stripper so, encouraged by that, given the potential asbestos content.
Looks like the New Year project is emerging (as is, in many household up and down the country...) ;D
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Nothing hurts like falling against an artexed wall when pished! ;D
Get a plasterer round for an opinion, I had a fairly deep one skimmed after it was coated with some weird green gritty stuff. worked for me :y
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Nothing hurts like falling against an artexed wall when pished! ;D
Get a plasterer round for an opinion, I had a fairly deep one skimmed after it was coated with some weird green gritty stuff. worked for me :y
I'd be looking for the daft bint in a bed with the birly head (Carrie??) and fella in the back to front shirt stood next to her if I hit that Artex in a hurry..... ;D ;D ;D
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Artex is fairly easily removed with a steam wall paper stripper. :y :y It turns it into a gooey paste. I must admit though I've only removed it from the ceiling of a 6' x 3' downstairs toilet/'cloakroom'.
.... and how long did that take?? :-\
Not very long once you get going and the artex softens.
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bit late in getting onto this thread but . .
I had the same when we moved into our present house . Every ceiling was artexed in a horrid comed circular patten.
Unibonded & skimmed over each room as we decorated. My advice would be to do that . Get a good plasterer in for a quote first, nothing to lose by that .
In my opinion, from your photo skimming that would not be a problem as skimmimg the ceilings is done in 2 coats ( one straight on top of the other as the first just starts to go off) if it is done properly. Ususl thing is to go over the whole ceiling with a sharp blade scraper to remove the peaks & highest spots.
But be aware as said previously some artex does contain small amounts of asbestos. I was told on a recent asbestos course that only the very early artex from late 50's has the larger quantities in it.
Most DIY er's don't know about two coat use on finish plastering
Good luck . . sure you can sort it :y
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http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=123099
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/artex.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SldbUcEjtvE
Just some ideas, but I don't think there is an easy way.
The recommended way of dealing with the asbestos hazard seems to be keeping it wet to avoid the dust hazard.
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When we bought our present house it was a mortgage repo and needed decoration top to toe. And it got it.
The then current fashion 'must have' was artexed ceilings. Managed to dissuade her from artex on the walls, thank goodness but she managed to get all (and I mean ALL) roofs done in a 4 bed house....).
Question is, looks fine in bedrooms and toilets and stuff, but the lounge/dining room needs re-decorated overall. Would it be easier but messier to remove plasterboard roofing panels in entirety or knock biggest lumps off and simply place new boards on top of existing? House is 1960's ex-council stylee - big rooms but bog standard ceiling height - so, what does the group experience of OOF recommend?
I know what I intend to do but interested in the 'professional'/experienced DIY type comments... :y
Easiest way B
I've had a couple of artrex ceilings covered over with new boards.....mind...i did have a plasterer to do it....he suggested it was quickest and easiest for him....and you carnt tell its a 'false' ceiling tbh....But i think it depends whats behind the artex......my ceilings were the old wood lattice type....so the plasterer didnt need to discover where the joists were....to get a good hold for the plasterboard screws......tho i guess with a pointed screwdriver it wouldnt take long to find the joists :y
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Last time i removed artex i used a wallpaper steamer. didn't take that long to be honest then tape and jointed the joints. not a big job and once you get going with a good steamer comes off easy
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I'd just paint it, as it looks quite nice really and it's a retro feature!! ;) It won't be long before it comes back into fashion and Mrs H21 will be saying 'I wish you hadn't got rid of all that lovely artex!!' ::)
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reading all the posts most are advising to over board and skim which is what we always do if a client asked me to just skim over the ceiling i would walk away from the job to be honest not worth the risk. your reliant on the platser sticking to the artex which in turn must be securley stuck to the board and if the artex has cracks from movement you can bet your bum the skim will crack there in due course
on artex we use 12mm plaster board screwed tape all joints and skim with mult finish and as some one did mention it is a 2 coat operation :y dont think the 12mm plaster board would be a problem carrying over your artex its not that bumpy
you also benifit from additional fire seperation from the extra layer of plaster board...good sales pitch ;D
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i'm with Paul, skimming straight on the artex is a bad idea..... you're almost a dead cert to get patches blown like that,
stripping it off is usually a workable , if slightly masochistic , plan, steam strippers do tend to work fairly well , although it depends on the age and product as to how quickly it comes off, then you get to have a closer look at what's behind it, and can make an informed decision on whether to renew the ceiling completely, or skim finish what's there.....
i dislike the trend of slapping new boards over it instead of actually doing it properly..... yeah, it's easier, quicker, but it's a half assed job, and you DO lose ceiling height, by at least 3/4 of an inch, which may not be much, but in a room with fairly low (in comparison to the 10-11 foot jobbies in victorian/edwardian premises) ceilings, that does have a psychological impact....
you wouldn't service yer miggy like that, so why your house?
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i'm with Paul, skimming straight on the artex is a bad idea..... you're almost a dead cert to get patches blown like that,
stripping it off is usually a workable , if slightly masochistic , plan, steam strippers do tend to work fairly well , although it depends on the age and product as to how quickly it comes off, then you get to have a closer look at what's behind it, and can make an informed decision on whether to renew the ceiling completely, or skim finish what's there.....
i dislike the trend of slapping new boards over it instead of actually doing it properly..... yeah, it's easier, quicker, but it's a half assed job, and you DO lose ceiling height, by at least 3/4 of an inch, which may not be much, but in a room with fairly low (in comparison to the 10-11 foot jobbies in victorian/edwardian premises) ceilings, that does have a psychological impact....
you wouldn't service yer miggy like that, so why your house?
its the cost of the boards, the time boarding also finding the joists which is ok if the distances between joists is equal all the way through then the skimming. being a shopfitter I've been there loads of times and its always a pain boarding over another ceiling
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been in shop fitting for over 30 years :y always strip out but now a local yocal bob the rather builder type ( marriage does that to you) generally people want the cheapest but best option
most expensive but best to strip out start again on most things plus on ceilings i like to nog out at all joint even tape still cracks if the boards move
plus strip out and replace the lighting with down lights another sales pitch ;D ;D
who you working for Richie ( dont become a builder it sucks) ;D ;D :D
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Artex isn't in fashionable any more? >looks at ceilings in entire 3-bed house< >sulks<
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When we bought our present house it was a mortgage repo and needed decoration top to toe. And it got it.
The then current fashion 'must have' was artexed ceilings. Managed to dissuade her from artex on the walls, thank goodness but she managed to get all (and I mean ALL) roofs done in a 4 bed house....).
Question is, looks fine in bedrooms and toilets and stuff, but the lounge/dining room needs re-decorated overall. Would it be easier but messier to remove plasterboard roofing panels in entirety or knock biggest lumps off and simply place new boards on top of existing? House is 1960's ex-council stylee - big rooms but bog standard ceiling height - so, what does the group experience of OOF recommend?
I know what I intend to do but interested in the 'professional'/experienced DIY type comments... :y
Easiest way B
I've had a couple of artrex ceilings covered over with new boards.....mind...i did have a plasterer to do it....he suggested it was quickest and easiest for him....and you carnt tell its a 'false' ceiling tbh....But i think it depends whats behind the artex......my ceilings were the old wood lattice type....so the plasterer didnt need to discover where the joists were....to get a good hold for the plasterboard screws......tho i guess with a pointed screwdriver it wouldnt take long to find the joists :y
best way if you ask me.
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i put tongue and grove on mine just varnish them now and again beats council artex
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i'm with Paul, skimming straight on the artex is a bad idea..... you're almost a dead cert to get patches blown like that,
stripping it off is usually a workable , if slightly masochistic , plan, steam strippers do tend to work fairly well , although it depends on the age and product as to how quickly it comes off, then you get to have a closer look at what's behind it, and can make an informed decision on whether to renew the ceiling completely, or skim finish what's there.....
i dislike the trend of slapping new boards over it instead of actually doing it properly..... yeah, it's easier, quicker, but it's a half assed job, and you DO lose ceiling height, by at least 3/4 of an inch, which may not be much, but in a room with fairly low (in comparison to the 10-11 foot jobbies in victorian/edwardian premises) ceilings, that does have a psychological impact....
you wouldn't service yer miggy like that, so why your house?
Altho i dont own an Omega any more.....i think thats an unfair comparision.....
My ceiling height is more than current new builds.....and can afford to loose an inch or two....
:(
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Slacken off the nut on the cold feed to the ballvalve in the loft header tank, go away for the weekend & ring the Insurance Company on Monday morning! Job Sorted!! ;D :y
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Slacken off the nut on the cold feed to the ballvalve in the loft header tank, go away for the weekend & ring the Insurance Company on Monday morning! Job Sorted!! ;D :y
naughty ;D
but nice and easy plus you may get new carpets :y
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been in shop fitting for over 30 years :y always strip out but now a local yocal bob the rather builder type ( marriage does that to you) generally people want the cheapest but best option
most expensive but best to strip out start again on most things plus on ceilings i like to nog out at all joint even tape still cracks if the boards move
plus strip out and replace the lighting with down lights another sales pitch ;D ;D
who you working for Richie ( dont become a builder it sucks) ;D ;D :D
i work for agencies mostly now but worked for john Richards shoplifting for years and centrefurb. I've done building work but dont like it and also property maintenance which is a pain as they seem to want you to do every chore in there house for free. i put a free listing on yell.com which i get a bit of work from and private work but i love shoplifting as its the best laugh going. don't see no poles shoplifting no more as there so useless but the rates are a lot lower no because pf them.
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been in shop fitting for over 30 years :y always strip out but now a local yocal bob the rather builder type ( marriage does that to you) generally people want the cheapest but best option
most expensive but best to strip out start again on most things plus on ceilings i like to nog out at all joint even tape still cracks if the boards move
plus strip out and replace the lighting with down lights another sales pitch ;D ;D
who you working for Richie ( dont become a builder it sucks) ;D ;D :D
i work for agencies mostly now but worked for john Richards shoplifting for years and centrefurb. I've done building work but dont like it and also property maintenance which is a pain as they seem to want you to do every chore in there house for free. i put a free listing on yell.com which i get a bit of work from and private work but i love shoplifting as its the best laugh going. don't see no poles shoplifting no more as there so useless but the rates are a lot lower no because pf them.
totally agree and as for the rates now gone back years same everywhere But london was always top dollar now its shite we moved from Northolt about 3 years ago i was a contracts manager for newmans till they went under but when i looked at the rates for fixing etc and jobs that were around we had to come back down south and give up the wifes council flat :-[ :-[
Love to come back into it one day but at the moment when you work out whats on offer and take away travelling etc from Ramsgate the end of the world the finances just dont add up. All sections of the industry has suffered with dramatic rate cuts and sadly dont see a rise for years to come the damage has been done
Wifeys happy that i am local though so not all doom and gloom butsome days i wish :'(
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been in shop fitting for over 30 years :y always strip out but now a local yocal bob the rather builder type ( marriage does that to you) generally people want the cheapest but best option
most expensive but best to strip out start again on most things plus on ceilings i like to nog out at all joint even tape still cracks if the boards move
plus strip out and replace the lighting with down lights another sales pitch ;D ;D
who you working for Richie ( dont become a builder it sucks) ;D ;D :D
i work for agencies mostly now but worked for john Richards shoplifting for years and centrefurb. I've done building work but dont like it and also property maintenance which is a pain as they seem to want you to do every chore in there house for free. i put a free listing on yell.com which i get a bit of work from and private work but i love shoplifting as its the best laugh going. don't see no poles shoplifting no more as there so useless but the rates are a lot lower no because pf them.
totally agree and as for the rates now gone back years same everywhere But london was always top dollar now its shite we moved from Northolt about 3 years ago i was a contracts manager for newmans till they went under but when i looked at the rates for fixing etc and jobs that were around we had to come back down south and give up the wifes council flat :-[ :-[
Love to come back into it one day but at the moment when you work out whats on offer and take away travelling etc from Ramsgate the end of the world the finances just dont add up. All sections of the industry has suffered with dramatic rate cuts and sadly dont see a rise for years to come the damage has been done
Wifeys happy that i am local though so not all doom and gloom butsome days i wish :'(
do i not know you then. i was born and bred in northolt. lived there till i was 32. still drink in the white hart and the civil engineer all the time.
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been in shop fitting for over 30 years :y always strip out but now a local yocal bob the rather builder type ( marriage does that to you) generally people want the cheapest but best option
most expensive but best to strip out start again on most things plus on ceilings i like to nog out at all joint even tape still cracks if the boards move
plus strip out and replace the lighting with down lights another sales pitch ;D ;D
who you working for Richie ( dont become a builder it sucks) ;D ;D :D
i work for agencies mostly now but worked for john Richards shoplifting for years and centrefurb. I've done building work but dont like it and also property maintenance which is a pain as they seem to want you to do every chore in there house for free. i put a free listing on yell.com which i get a bit of work from and private work but i love shoplifting as its the best laugh going. don't see no poles shoplifting no more as there so useless but the rates are a lot lower no because pf them.
totally agree and as for the rates now gone back years same everywhere But london was always top dollar now its shite we moved from Northolt about 3 years ago i was a contracts manager for newmans till they went under but when i looked at the rates for fixing etc and jobs that were around we had to come back down south and give up the wifes council flat :-[ :-[
Love to come back into it one day but at the moment when you work out whats on offer and take away travelling etc from Ramsgate the end of the world the finances just dont add up. All sections of the industry has suffered with dramatic rate cuts and sadly dont see a rise for years to come the damage has been done
Wifeys happy that i am local though so not all doom and gloom butsome days i wish :'(
do i not know you then. i was born and bred in northolt. lived there till i was 32. still drink in the white hart and the civil engineer all the time.
i was only there about a year or so it was wifeys flat she lived there for years may know her Jane Carverhill lived in islip manor road think her dad may have drank in the white heart name rings a bell mick carverhill
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I've heard of Mic carvehill. but not your wife. I know most old faces in northolt unfortunately its filling up with immigrants now and has deteriorated a lot.i used to go in the plough quite a bit till an insurance scam burnt it down ;D
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mick passed away about 2 1/2 years ago we still go up quite often to see her mum they live in southall thats just as bad
we have an area down here where they have placed all the imigrants etc and its a no go zone at night unless you want to be mugged the area was pretty run down before which does not help
worst thing we ever did was give up the place in northolt if oinly we had the money to buy it well handy for the tube into london
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West drayton is getting bad now. i want to be out of here within the next 2yrs when both the kids are driving. Hillingdon council have to take in all the asylum seekers when they land at heathrow so its filling up with them and crime here is increasing rapidly.
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been in shop fitting for over 30 years :y always strip out but now a local yocal bob the rather builder type ( marriage does that to you) generally people want the cheapest but best option
most expensive but best to strip out start again on most things plus on ceilings i like to nog out at all joint even tape still cracks if the boards move
plus strip out and replace the lighting with down lights another sales pitch ;D ;D
who you working for Richie ( dont become a builder it sucks) ;D ;D :D
i work for agencies mostly now but worked for john Richards shoplifting for years and centrefurb. I've done building work but dont like it and also property maintenance which is a pain as they seem to want you to do every chore in there house for free. i put a free listing on yell.com which i get a bit of work from and private work but i love shoplifting as its the best laugh going. don't see no poles shoplifting no more as there so useless but the rates are a lot lower no because pf them.
You sure you mean that ??? :) Mr Plod might show an interest if you do !!!! :)
Somehow .... I'm sure ....... you mean .......... SHOPFITTING !!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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been in shop fitting for over 30 years :y always strip out but now a local yocal bob the rather builder type ( marriage does that to you) generally people want the cheapest but best option
most expensive but best to strip out start again on most things plus on ceilings i like to nog out at all joint even tape still cracks if the boards move
plus strip out and replace the lighting with down lights another sales pitch ;D ;D
who you working for Richie ( dont become a builder it sucks) ;D ;D :D
i work for agencies mostly now but worked for john Richards shoplifting for years and centrefurb. I've done building work but dont like it and also property maintenance which is a pain as they seem to want you to do every chore in there house for free. i put a free listing on yell.com which i get a bit of work from and private work but i love shoplifting as its the best laugh going. don't see no poles shoplifting no more as there so useless but the rates are a lot lower no because pf them.
You sure you mean that ??? :) Mr Plod might show an interest if you do !!!! :)
Somehow .... I'm sure ....... you mean .......... SHOPFITTING !!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
sorry its this predictive text on me phone ;D ;D :y