Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[aaronjb]

I have nothing against bankers getting big bonuses.

And Uk manufacturing is only aroun 11% of GDP now.

A sad state of affairs on the manufacturing front

I certainly agree.

It's a bloody shame to say the least.  The foundations of the country have been compromised by the allure of the high tech, service and financial industries - howsoever capricious their true worth.

I also think the loss of focus on building a skills base is a major concern to.

Engineering degrees are very out of fashion and the skilled manual workers are no longer being trained.

I would like to hope the new apprentice scheme may be able to help address that but, only time will tell.

Yes, correct again - if the basics are unsound, no amount of window dressing - however much in keeping with the current trend - will produce a satisfactory result or generate conditions where the nation can create and maintain real wealth.

It seems to me that these practical skills will be needed sooner rather than later judging by the international situation.

Maybe, maybe not - personally I think we have a long way to go before technology is suddenly no longer needed because the entire world is living in the dark ages. There are entire continents who haven't yet caught up to our standards of living (India, China to name but two) and sooner or later they will - all those millions of new people using technology will require ever larger amounts of technology and people to keep it all working (people like me, incidentally, so you know where I'm coming from on this).

Having said that.. don't think that all of those people who sit on their arses all day earning money keeping the world revolving are only good at that. Quite a lot of us are also good at turning a wrench or laying bricks - we don't just sit around all weekend painting our nails and looking after our skin

If the shit hits the fan and suddenly IT is no longer required I have no doubt I can do whatever else is necessary to earn a living - whether it's laying bricks or plumbing. But right now, keeping the technological gears of the world turning pays more than laying bricks with a lot less backache, so I think I'll stay where I am.. the rumours of our (the IT industry/banking industry/whatever non-manufacturing industry you care to mention) demise are greatly exaggerated..

[Varche]

We do have a good manufacturing base.

Take the financial industry. A Modern day succes story though the base is founded way back in time.

You lend some folk some money you don't have and they pay it back with interest at a higher rate than you borrowed it. You have some plush offices and nice salaries to go with the illusion. people would avoid you if you operated out of a bar with some heavies on hand.

Then it becomes more sophisticated. Gambling on the future (with the banks or should I say punters money). Bet on the price of pork bellies, oil, coffee etc in the future be it tomorrow or next year.

Everything is hunky dory as you cannot fail even if the instrument you invented turns out to be a complete crock as then the people bail you out for you "cannot be allowed to fail". If you gamble successfully you are well rewarded. If you don't, well you still get rewarded.

need an example. Cablke TV and telephony. What a great idea. Dig up the streets and compete with BT. Cost a fortune and the returns weren't there. No matter declare chapter 11 and write off the losses (punters share value reduced to something like a hundredth) Now the assets are all owned by the bank and we can sell it to Virgin media for a profit. Winners =Goldman Sachs. Losers= punters

What do they manufacture?, well money of course ( worthless bits of paper you can exchange for real things of value). The best confidence trick of all time by far.

[Banjax]

agreed Varche, money from nothing is literally unsustainable unless you have constant and accelerating growth, the minute that stops the whole house of cards falls down 

[Dishevelled Den]

It seems to me that these practical skills will be needed sooner rather than later judging by the international situation.

Maybe, maybe not - personally I think we have a long way to go before technology is suddenly no longer needed because the entire world is living in the dark ages. There are entire continents who haven't yet caught up to our standards of living (India, China to name but two) and sooner or later they will - all those millions of new people using technology will require ever larger amounts of technology and people to keep it all working (people like me, incidentally, so you know where I'm coming from on this).

Having said that.. don't think that all of those people who sit on their arses all day earning money keeping the world revolving are only good at that. Quite a lot of us are also good at turning a wrench or laying bricks - we don't just sit around all weekend painting our nails and looking after our skin

If the shit hits the fan and suddenly IT is no longer required I have no doubt I can do whatever else is necessary to earn a living - whether it's laying bricks or plumbing. But right now, keeping the technological gears of the world turning pays more than laying bricks with a lot less backache, so I think I'll stay where I am.. the rumours of our (the IT industry/banking industry/whatever non-manufacturing industry you care to mention) demise are greatly exaggerated..

I wasn't really thinking of the imminent collapse of the technological sector Aaron far from it

World stability and prosperity amongst other things depend on the maintenance and development of IT, so it’s essential that we have suitably qualified, imaginative people who are able to do just that.

I was looking at the demise of out national manufacturing base and the logical reduction in people seeking skill-sets to exploit in that area. 

We have allowed this to happen over some time believing that there would be ample opportunities for our people in the new technologies along with the financial and service industries to replace those jobs lost in the traditional industries which made this country a formidable industrial force at one time.

I think this is short-sighted and has merely allowed us to be held hostage to those countries now engaging in the very same industrial possesses that we decided were of little consequence (for a variety of reasons) in the new technological age.

We should be taking back those lost industries - to provide not only jobs for our own people but, more importantly, to provide a sound base upon which to build our national prosperity as it’s never a good idea to place too much faith in one or two disciplines such as IT or finance to be the main facilitators for any nation’s economic security.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It seems to me that these practical skills will be needed sooner rather than later judging by the international situation.

Maybe, maybe not - personally I think we have a long way to go before technology is suddenly no longer needed because the entire world is living in the dark ages. There are entire continents who haven't yet caught up to our standards of living (India, China to name but two) and sooner or later they will - all those millions of new people using technology will require ever larger amounts of technology and people to keep it all working (people like me, incidentally, so you know where I'm coming from on this).

Having said that.. don't think that all of those people who sit on their arses all day earning money keeping the world revolving are only good at that. Quite a lot of us are also good at turning a wrench or laying bricks - we don't just sit around all weekend painting our nails and looking after our skin

If the shit hits the fan and suddenly IT is no longer required I have no doubt I can do whatever else is necessary to earn a living - whether it's laying bricks or plumbing. But right now, keeping the technological gears of the world turning pays more than laying bricks with a lot less backache, so I think I'll stay where I am.. the rumours of our (the IT industry/banking industry/whatever non-manufacturing industry you care to mention) demise are greatly exaggerated..

I wasn't really thinking of the imminent collapse of the technological sector Aaron far from it

World stability and prosperity amongst other things depend on the maintenance and development of IT, so it’s essential that we have suitably qualified, imaginative people who are able to do just that.

I was looking at the demise of out national manufacturing base and the logical reduction in people seeking skill-sets to exploit in that area. 

We have allowed this to happen over some time believing that there would be ample opportunities for our people in the new technologies along with the financial and service industries to replace those jobs lost in the traditional industries which made this country a formidable industrial force at one time.

I think this is short-sighted and has merely allowed us to be held hostage to those countries now engaging in the very same industrial possesses that we decided were of little consequence (for a variety of reasons) in the new technological age.

We should be taking back those lost industries - to provide not only jobs for our own people but, more importantly, to provide a sound base upon which to build our national prosperity as it’s never a good idea to place too much faith in one or two disciplines such as IT or finance to be the main facilitators for any nation’s economic security.

I think Zulu you are forgetting a very important issue; the issue of labour costs, and how much the British worker wants per hour.

Our "old" industries went mainly due to the fact we could not compete on price, when in other countries there were workers who would work for a lesser amount.  This, combined with a reduction in demand for the "old" products we used to produce, along with our great expertise in new technology, sent our country away from the days of the Industrial Revolution.

If we could persuade our workers to work for less pay, and undertake work without expensive H&S restrictions then we could, just could, reverse the trend and become the great industrial power that started a decline in the early 1900s.  But who would work for less, and see the standard of living plummet to third world levels?

[Banjax]

ah yes, have the downtrodden masses work for less, not the leeches at the top of the pile 

[albitz]

It simply isnt possible in this modern, civilised country with high standards of living and very high prices for basic living essentials,to manufacture low cost /high volume goods on a large scale. Its nothing to do with workers accepting less or "leeches at the top" even working for nothing. To compete with the countries which are now doing that kind of thing we would have to pay people wages which wouldnt even keep them from starvation, never mind put a roof over their heads. And even if those at the top sacrificed their seven figure salaries, it would still be a drop in the ocean of global competitiveness.
What has gone around might just in the longer term come back around again when the countries now producing these goods become wealthier and standards of living/wages/expectations etc. inevitably rise. Wouldnt want to bet my last quid on it though tbh.

[Dishevelled Den]

I think Zulu you are forgetting a very important issue; the issue of labour costs, and how much the British worker wants per hour.

Our "old" industries went mainly due to the fact we could not compete on price, when in other countries there were workers who would work for a lesser amount.  This, combined with a reduction in demand for the "old" products we used to produce, along with our great expertise in new technology, sent our country away from the days of the Industrial Revolution.

If we could persuade our workers to work for less pay, and undertake work without expensive H&S restrictions then we could, just could, reverse the trend and become the great industrial power that started a decline in the early 1900s.  But who would work for less, and see the standard of living plummet to third world levels?

Yes I do understand the costs issue Lizzie but the desire to obtain goods/services at the lowest possible cost isn't necessarily a good thing.

By chasing the most cost efficient means of obtaining goods for distribution and sale we have allowed our own industrial base to wither to the point where we could not - even if we wanted to - produce similar goods by using our own skilled labour.

Sooner or later these foreign produced goods will be less attractive in terms of quality, availability and cost – what will we do then?

The automobile industry that remains here (such as it is) has been very successful in reinventing itself following that chaotic period during which union power lax management, stunted research and development and excessive worker behaviour effectively decimated it.

Effective management, good labour ethic and cost control have all ensured the continued success of this industry - can this not be done with other lost industrial processes?  If the will exists then surely we can find the means to implement a resurgence of home grown industry.

We depend too much of foreign made goods, we have disadvantaged our own industrial base by putting the bottom line before everything else and, worst of all, we have allowed critical skills to disappear in the process.

We should be taking care of business by ensuring that we have a broad-based industrial capability here at home and disregarding the allure of cheap goods from abroad for, one day, those goods may not be so competitively priced.