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[cem_devecioglu]

one of my jobmates bought an omega 2000 2.5 v6 auto..
 
today I drive it .. and I discovered I really hate autoboxes
 
whoever made this design , its utter crap..  until 70 and some kms speed its doesnt lock up and whole road (traffic crowded) it was like flooring the accelerator with a half clutch   and the box was built by previous owner at a high cost
 
I offered him to convert to manual but his wife also using the car..
 
did I say I hate autoboxes

[cem_devecioglu]

and must admit this box really ruining omega and its engine

[Varche]

That is a real shame.

I still stand by what i have always said. ALL gearboxes should be auto and the few that want manual ought to specify them and pay extra. If that had been the case auto boxes would have become a lot more sophisticated and maybe now are.

maybe your friends car needs gearbox oil change or the software uplift on the ECU?

[aaronjb]

Autoboxes are about as advanced as they're going to get - the gearsets are very neat, actually, the electronic controls very sophisticated.. but due to their fundamental design you're always going to be driving it through a horrible, lossy, slipping, slush-inducing, insipid, torque convertor.

If you really want the convenience (and that's all it is, really) of an automatic, now, then you should be looking at the 'semi automatic' DSG or PDK boxes from Ze Germans. The laziness of an automatic coupled to a proper, real, manual gearbox without the losses and 'slippy' torque convertor because it has proper, mechanical links between engine & road wheels...

[Kevin Wood]

Problem is, whilst a DSG box is great when you have your right foot buried in carpet, it's impossible for them to be comfortable during normal driving, IMHO, as they still have the crash up and down umpteen gears and they seem to die more often than an AR25 in a chipped tractor. Worst of both worlds, I reckon.

IMHO, a conventional autobox is great for mimbling around and commuting but cr@p when pressing on. A manual is the only option for driver involvement and is also by far the most reliable. Those are the choices..

Well, there's a quaiffe sequential, of course.

[cem_devecioglu]

That is a real shame.

I still stand by what i have always said. ALL gearboxes should be auto and the few that want manual ought to specify them and pay extra. If that had been the case auto boxes would have become a lot more sophisticated and maybe now are.

maybe your friends car needs gearbox oil change or the software uplift on the ECU?

nooo all gearboxes must be manual

dsg type boxes are ok ish.. but real solution is to lock up at every speed after gear change and its not rocket science imo..

[cem_devecioglu]

Autoboxes are about as advanced as they're going to get - the gearsets are very neat, actually, the electronic controls very sophisticated.. but due to their fundamental design you're always going to be driving it through a horrible, lossy, slipping, slush-inducing, insipid, torque convertor.

If you really want the convenience (and that's all it is, really) of an automatic, now, then you should be looking at the 'semi automatic' DSG or PDK boxes from Ze Germans. The laziness of an automatic coupled to a proper, real, manual gearbox without the losses and 'slippy' torque convertor because it has proper, mechanical links between engine & road wheels...

I have driven BMWs with ZF autoboxes and they are definitely better..

[aaronjb]

Problem is, whilst a DSG box is great when you have your right foot buried in carpet, it's impossible for them to be comfortable during normal driving, IMHO, as they still have the crash up and down umpteen gears and they seem to die more often than an AR25 in a chipped tractor. Worst of both worlds, I reckon.

Have you tried the current-ish generation PDKs in the 911? In automatic mode it's imperceptible when it changes gear, just like a full auto.. mind, in flappy paddle mode it's also imperceptible which is a very strange sensation! I think I preferred the F1 box in the 430, which changed gear like a man with no mechanical sympathy at all

Well, there's a quaiffe sequential, of course.

I did look at those for the Cobra, along with the box of electronic & pneumatic trickery to make it 'almost' flappy paddle (still need a clutch for stopping & starting) - but the price made my eyes water and my bank manager threaten to cut me off, so...

[cem_devecioglu]

and with todays fuel prices, slipping autobox at low speeds is a fuel monster and I cant claim its comfortable to drive an increased engine noise with 0 acceleration

[Kevin Wood]

That is a real shame.

I still stand by what i have always said. ALL gearboxes should be auto and the few that want manual ought to specify them and pay extra. If that had been the case auto boxes would have become a lot more sophisticated and maybe now are.

maybe your friends car needs gearbox oil change or the software uplift on the ECU?

nooo all gearboxes must be manual

dsg type boxes are ok ish.. but real solution is to lock up at every speed after gear change and its not rocket science imo..

The problem is that a conventional autobox needs the torque converter to multiply the engine output torque to fill in between the gear ratios when you only have 4 speeds like the Omega. It would be even more tedious if it was banging in and out of lockup all the time while driving slowly, and the lockup clutches aren't normally robust enough to cope with all combinations of speed and load, hence their use is carefully controlled.

Much as it feels like the clutch is slipping, torque converters aren't that inefficient at this torque multiplication (the autobox fluid would need much more cooling if it was soaking up a significant percentage of engine output), it's in the coupling phases when the engine speed pretty much matches TC output speed that they are bad, and this is why lockup was added.

[Kevin Wood]

Have you tried the current-ish generation PDKs in the 911? In automatic mode it's imperceptible when it changes gear, just like a full auto.. mind, in flappy paddle mode it's also imperceptible which is a very strange sensation! I think I preferred the F1 box in the 430, which changed gear like a man with no mechanical sympathy at all

Chance would be a fine thing. No, just low budget VAG implementations, sadly.

Well, there's a quaiffe sequential, of course.

I did look at those for the Cobra, along with the box of electronic & pneumatic trickery to make it 'almost' flappy paddle (still need a clutch for stopping & starting) - but the price made my eyes water and my bank manager threaten to cut me off, so...

Are you sure you're going to need one with that engine?


.. a gearbox, that is.

[aaronjb]

Chance would be a fine thing. No, just low budget VAG implementations, sadly.

The Porsche offering is fantastic.. blag a test drive somewhere Much better than the single-clutch semi auto on my M3.. 

Are you sure you're going to need one with that engine?


.. a gearbox, that is.

Sure .. it just might only have one effective gear - 6th!

[cem_devecioglu]

That is a real shame.

I still stand by what i have always said. ALL gearboxes should be auto and the few that want manual ought to specify them and pay extra. If that had been the case auto boxes would have become a lot more sophisticated and maybe now are.

maybe your friends car needs gearbox oil change or the software uplift on the ECU?

nooo all gearboxes must be manual

dsg type boxes are ok ish.. but real solution is to lock up at every speed after gear change and its not rocket science imo..

The problem is that a conventional autobox needs the torque converter to multiply the engine output torque to fill in between the gear ratios when you only have 4 speeds like the Omega. It would be even more tedious if it was banging in and out of lockup all the time while driving slowly, and the lockup clutches aren't normally robust enough to cope with all combinations of speed and load, hence their use is carefully controlled.

Much as it feels like the clutch is slipping, torque converters aren't that inefficient at this torque multiplication (the autobox fluid would need much more cooling if it was soaking up a significant percentage of engine output), it's in the coupling phases when the engine speed pretty much matches TC output speed that they are bad, and this is why lockup was added.

how much is a brand new autobox from the factory.. let me answer it.. an arm and a leg even in UK .. and how much is the cost of in between lock up clutches if they are made up of stronger composite material ? compared to total cost , it will be nothing.. 

and let us assume/say it would be costly and hard to produce .. even ithat condition cant we replace them at every 100K kms for a reasonable price.. I think , a slipping autobox is definitely a rubbish design and unacceptable in terms of engineering practice.. and I dont accept its impossible to make a better design..problem is they are not given enough importance..

[dbug]

cem if god wanted you to drive a manual box he would have given you three legs!  Two pedals = two legs 

[cem_devecioglu]

cem if god wanted you to drive a manual box he would have given you three legs!  Two pedals = two legs 

god gave me 3 legs , you didnt see it