Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[I_want_an_Omega]

Ok, opinions aside - some questions about our Bose installs - asked from an electrical engineeing pespective .........

Firstly, we all know that Bose use 2 ohm speakers to get more power out of an amp which is powered by a single 12v supply. Hopefully we all agree on that. But, it makes it a non standard install and I also understnd that low impedance speakers have less damping - which makes them  a bit more difficult for an amp to keep them in check. Seems to sound ok in 2012 even though it hit the streets in 1997 - IMHO of course......

Secondly, we also know that simply replacing the Bose amp with something better isn't a good idea as the new amp will be driving into 2 ohm loads rather than 4 or 8 and this isn't good news. I've never seen an amp "explode" but is fabled that this can happen apparently  - causing untold grief/flames and allow all that smoke hidden within wires to be released ......

So, what happens if the Bose speakers are replaced with modern higher quality 4 ohm units. Ok, they might not sound as loud - but there is still plenty of power available to play with - with isn't there? 4 Ohms is less power than 2 ohms - so that's better for the amp, and if the speakers sound "better" then isn't it a win/win situation - albeit at the expense of all out volume.

Home hifi amps seem quite happy driving into 4, 6, 8 or even 15 ohm speakers, so why shouldn't a Bose amp designed for 2 ohms be happy driving into 4 or 8?

I'd add that I'm not looking to change my amp or speakers as I'm actually quite happy with the way mine sounds. But I am really interested in getting a few agreed facts on this subject.

PS - what is the latest on that guy putting zillions of watts of amps an speakers into an Estate? Looked interesting a few months ago but not seem much recently.



 

[Dave DND]

A fair enough question, and if I may throw something into the argument:

Whilst I cannot disagree with your theory about a 4 Ohm speaker essentially being driven at less than a 2 Ohm speaker from a  2 Ohm amp, you must also take into consideration that the lower the impedance goes, then essentially the lower the perceived sound quality. Bass is usually under 2 Ohms, as its monaural anyway, and as you rightly point out, many Home Hi-Fi are up at 16 Ohms where the sound quality is often better.

However, where replacing a 4 Ohm speaker would actually work with a basic 2 Ohm amplifier in the way  that is going through your mind, where this is different is the intervention of that troublesome word of BOSE. Do not mistake a BOSE amp for just being a 2 Ohm amp - it is not, and that is why your suggestion would not work. Apart from running a 2 Ohm amplifier, the dynamics sounds that are both inputted and outputted from this amp are tailored to specifically designed speakers that are designed purely to run with the amp as an exclusive package, and for this reason, other speakers (even aftermarket 2 Ohm ones) just never sound quite as good as the way that BOSE intended it to sound in the Omega.

BOSE does not play well with others.

I can only reiterate a comment that I have stuck with throughout:
The BOSE system in its day was indeed an awesome sound, and was without doubt the best that you could have GIVEN THE TECHNOLOGY AND MATERIALS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME. But that time has gone and the facts are that technology, materials and manufacturing processes have now moved forwards and there are better sounds available in the aftermarket sector these days.

Think about horsepower for a moment, and think on the Ferrari 308 - V8 engine, awesome car of its day, much reveered nowadays, and now has less power than a Vauxhall Astra VXR from a few years ago. Nostalgic people will love the Italian, but those who want some modern power would probably go for the Vx.

Same arguments applies to sound - so my question is:

Are you Nostalgic for 20year old BOSE or do you want to listen to something better from the 21st century?

 

[I_want_an_Omega]

Ok, that makes sort of sense ...... It's a package which can't be undone is really what you are saying. A "solution" in todays mumbo-jumbo speak.

I guess it would actually "work" insomuch as it would produce sound - but with somewhat unpredictable results ..........

I had a new Elite in '99 and thought it sounded good then. I also did a retro-fit into an MV6 in 2001 - one of the first I would imagine. I still think it sounds good for the vast majority of the time - but can perhaps see flaws around the edges in some situations. I'm not looking to do anything about it TBH - but do value your professional comments.

I'm not quite sure what I would do about audio if I had a newer daily driver TBH - so will cross that bridge if and when I get to it.

What's your opinion on Bose domestic stuff Dave? I suspect it's quite similar to mine ...... 

[Dave DND]

Ok, that makes sort of sense ...... It's a package which can't be undone is really what you are saying.

Yes. If it were simply a case of replacing a standard type speaker or a standard two Ohm amp, that would be one thing, but what you are playing with here is "adapted" speakers and "modified" amplifiers that were really only meant to work with each other.

I guess it would actually "work" insomuch as it would produce sound - but with somewhat unpredictable results ..........

Yes, you would get sound, but the quality would be very predictable - and unwanted !!

I had a new Elite in '99 and thought it sounded good then. I also did a retro-fit into an MV6 in 2001 - one of the first I would imagine. I still think it sounds good for the vast majority of the time - but can perhaps see flaws around the edges in some situations.

The BOSE system was designed for the Omega, so if installed and operated correctly, yes, it will sound good - in fact, very good -- but yes, you will indeed start to notice some of the shortfalls as you are now comparing to modern sound equipment during everyday life. Ever listened to the speaker on a 15 year old TV? Wow !! thats rough !!

I'm not quite sure what I would do about audio if I had a newer daily driver TBH - so will cross that bridge if and when I get to it.

It would actually be a far easier argument, as BOSE would not be a consideration - the trouble here is that people cannot see beyond BOSE from yesteryear, there is a whole world of audio out there just waiting to be explored.

What's your opinion on Bose domestic stuff Dave? I suspect it's quite similar to mine ...... 

I`m a strong fan of ANY deidicated system, ie: source, amp and speakers are designed by the same people and the sound can be very predicatble as a result. BOSE have spent a lot of time and research into the way their stuff sounds and behaves, and it shows, but why we all think that we can do better by adding another unknown component to a matched system and do better than the design engineers is beyond me. That said, whilst I like the sound of the BOSE domestic stuff, its not a brand I would personally own, as I find the accoustic capabilities a bit too limited for my own taste -

but then again, I have been very spoilt !!   

[zirk]

Just to add, Bose have been around since the early 60's from initially producing Amplifiers and Sonic Equipment to the US Defence and then going into the Domestic market with their own Amps, only to find, that Speaker systems around at the time, didn't fit the bill, probably true at the time.

Dr Bose decided that there's no point in designing so called Flat Response Linear Amplifiers when theres no Flat response Speakers around, and with that, twiddled with there Amps EQ and Frequency compression to compensate for poor Speaker quality and hence in the late 60's the Bose 901 Speakers where born, most people loved them, some hated them as they only come as Amp and Speaker package, if the 901's where played on any other equipment they sounded crap.

Bose got in to Car Audio Market in the 70's and by the 80's had a good share in optional OEM Audio upgrades with some big US Motor Companies in developing, so called, Tailored Systems to suit the Vehicles audio criteria.

The reason Im giving the history, is unfortunately, nothing has changed in there line of thinking, they still seem to go off the beaten track in the designs, where every other company designs to a standard.

As Dave said earlier, yep, change the speakers to another 2 or 4 Ohm types and it will work, will it sound right, no, the Amps EQ curves will be all over the place and tuned for there own speakers design.   

 

[Dave DND]

The reason Im giving the history, is unfortunately, nothing has changed in there line of thinking, they still seem to go off the beaten track in the designs, where every other company designs to a standard.

Absolutely -

But before anyone asks the question as to how a 2012 dedicated BOSE system would stand up to a 2012 designed aftermarket system from a single manufacturer . . . .

. . . . The answer is, I just don`t know   

However, if the aftermarket system needed tweeking, unlike the BOSE, you could use "Off the shelf" items to tailor it to your needs.

 

[henryd]

I went to Eurodisney a few weeks ago,all the outdoor speakers were Bose

[Dave DND]

I went to Eurodisney a few weeks ago,all the outdoor speakers were Bose

Not surprised, some of their outdoor PA stuff is awesome !!

[Big_Al]

I went to Eurodisney a few weeks ago,all the outdoor speakers were Bose

Not surprised, some of their outdoor PA stuff is awesome !!

I have a Bose L1 model 2  compact PA system  ,( 1 tall column & 2 very small bass bins )  enough power for a 500 seat theatre 
and quality quite extraordinary . . . . awesome is the word 

[biggriffin]

as long as it sounds good when ive got radio 2 on or listerning to the Who or some 80's house,thats all that matters.
   if you like the way it sounds thats good enough.

[feeutfo]

I've been in a few cars with premium sound systems much newer than the omega.
I haven't heard anything that sounds better. Bose kicks the standard omega sound package into the gutter. Maximum volume, zero distortion. I rarely use those volume levels but it can take it all day long.

Fact is, there may well be a better sound package available, but it's a world of deminishing returns for way too much cash. More than thae car is worth in some cases.
The industry don't like Bose because they can't sell anything to Bose customers. Simples.

Ps, I drove a VXR Astra the other day, and it torque steered into the ditch. It's only better if it's a complete package.

[zirk]

Tend to agree with most of the above, Bose late PA stuff does do what it says on the tin and can be used with other Amps, think they have always tried to be the pioneers of Big Noise from Small Boxes.

As for Bose in the Omega, yea, it does do a good job, but as mentioned many times its old technology, never was a fan of Bose in the HiFi world, but as for in the Mig, yea, Im happy with it, probably more to do with the OEM look if Im honest and for Me, parking your Car in London, you get that self assurance that the Stereo's still going to be where it lives when you get back.

You can sort of forgive them for doing things differently all those years ago, and have come up with some great inventions over the years, but in these modern times and in particular to Car Audio they have to do things in a non compatibly manor compared with off the self standard stuff, maybe there just scared to go down the Standard Component route.

Seem to remember the Bose banner is
- Bose, Better Sound Through Research,
I reckon its more like
- Bose, Researching a Solution for a Problem that doesn't exist in the First Place.

   

[Marks DTM Calib]

Its fair to say that the Bose domestic audio stuff is 'average' at a 'premium'

On the impedance question, lets consider how a power amp is put together and what is impacted by impedance changes.

A key is the fact that a power amplifier in standalone form is a VERY high gain amplifier with a compromised bandwidth and response curve, not good!

This is addressed by adding feedback which reduces the gain but improves bandwidth, in addition, you add some additional 'damping' components to stop oscillation and more often than not, the speaker and its complex equivalent circuit (it is very, and nothing like a resistance!) is considered as part of this.

One of the key things you see on a system which is not capable of driving lower loads is that when you wind the volume up, the amp becomes unstable due to the damping being outside of limits and you can hear 'motorboating' as the amp becomes unstable and oscillates. Another potential issue with driving lower loads is the higher current the output devices have to handle which can cause overheating and destruction (generaly the later devices have been desigend with this in mind and the mosfet output stages increase in resistance as temperature rises which can partialy self protect them from thermal runaway unlike what happened on the older bipolar parts)

Most if not all amps will driver a higher load but often with a compromised response (as the load is again outside of the designed for characteristics) and hence why head[hone jacks on a cheaper power amp can often be a little dissappointing!. 

Bose systems do use filtering to tailor the sound to better match the response curve of the speaker set and hence why the bose amp is not simply an 'amp' as it includes a specific equaliser for the setup (easy to see this when you open one up). This is also why standard speakers sound 'odd'.

[Olddavid]

First, let me say that the Bose system in my car sounds great. But, in a home environment, I've always felt Bose sounds "gimmicky" to my ears. I owned a set of 901's way back when, but I found that after a time my head got listener fatigue. Just my opinion, but I have yet to hear a speaker that sounds better than my 40 year old Klipsch Cornerhorns. A design, I think, at least 70 years old. My2 cents - and overpriced at that.

[zirk]

First, let me say that the Bose system in my car sounds great. But, in a home environment, I've always felt Bose sounds "gimmicky" to my ears. I owned a set of 901's way back when, but I found that after a time my head got listener fatigue. Just my opinion, but I have yet to hear a speaker that sounds better than my 40 year old Klipsch Cornerhorns. A design, I think, at least 70 years old. My2 cents - and overpriced at that.

I remember listening to a set of those in my early HiFi Engineering days, we had a set amongst other makes in the Lab when I worked for Thorens Ortofon back in the 70's, they really did sound awesome!

Think you may have some issues getting them to fit in the back of your Catera though.