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[Lizzie_Zoom]

Interesting mathematics for you ... If we take the average Annual RFL for an Omega to be £270

and the average mileage covered 10,000

and the average fuel consumption 25 mpg

10,000 miles @25 mpg = 400 galls = 1816 litres per year per omega, so to raise the equivalent of £270 the price per litre would have to rise by 15 p / litre

for the top end cars at £470 a year it would need to be more ... so again .. guessing on averages the actual increase would need to be around 20 p /litre or more and the top end cars would still be "winning" ......

I don't see anyone being happy with a 20 - 25 p /litre increase even if it did mean no more road tax ... especially those at the bottom end of the tax rates !!

headline rate of £1:50 a litre ...... 

I understand the maths Entwood, but I do 5,000 miler per year, so for (many?) people like me it makes sense.

Another 20-25p per litre increase for 10,000 mile drivers; I think that would seem acceptable as, let's face it, prices over recent years have gone up much more than that.  With no RFL to pay for, I think many would see it as worthwhile.

When I was on business I was doing 100,000 miles every 18 months, so people on business would pay properly for the use of the road.  Private users would obviously pay far less.  I think that is a fairer (nothing is completly fair of course!!) system.

Sorry Lizzie but I think your wrong. Business would only "appear" to pay more. The reality is they would just pass the extra cost on to there customers, so low mileage people like me would still end paying more. Even a non road user would end paying more.

That's ok, a lot think I am!

No, all of us would only pay that increase in a companies costs IF you used that business and bought their product.  There is always competition, and again the market in our capitalist system will dictate what people will pay for a service or product.  The company that cannot manage their extra costs by such a development, which as I have said can be offset against tax, will simply not stay in business.  A commercially astute company, and they are the ones who will survive, will cut their wastage and general costs; perhaps reviewing and changing how they use company vehicles, and I have much experience as a senior manager of taking such action.

The general public should not worry about how businesses will survive or not when the government takes action to change the tax regime. It is up to the companies themselves to lobby the Government, or, as in most cases, just take themselves the action necessary for their business.

The question here is what is fair for Joe Public.  In regards to road use I believe it is fairer for individuals to pay more for high road usage than those who use the roads in a limited manner.  The  Government will be controlled on the costs they pass on to motorists by the political climate and the general market forces. That is why the expected 3p increase in fuel duty has been scrapped, and as a separate, but similar situation, railway ticket prices are being held back from the levels the railway companies want to charge.

The sooner the RFL is scrapped and the tax passed on to fuel prices to recognise actual use of the roads by the individual motorist, private or company, the better.

[Broomies Mate]

I agree with Lizzie.  PAYG is the fairest method.

However, let's not forget that the DVLA is Big Brother..... Government's way of keeping track on who owns what and where it is kept.

I'm not suggesting that removing RFL will lose this data, but the DVLA will still have to operate in the same capacity to keep on top of it, if that makes sense?

Also, the punishment income will be lost.... something the DVLA thrives on, I'm sure.

[ZacVegas]

Seeing that everything man made goes on the back of a lorry, I think we can assume that virtually everything will go up in price.

[kevinp58]

Seeing that everything man made goes on the back of a lorry, I think we can assume that virtually everything will go up in price.

Not if they allow haulage companies a type of red diesel i:e blue or yellow at a lower rate of tax

[dazzle72]

Something needs to be done. We pay stupid amounts on road tax, stupid amounts of tax on the fuel we buy and now they're on about expanding the number of toll roads. Thats like charging us 3 times to use a vehicle on the road!! They want us to use public transport more, but its hopeless at best. And they want us to use our cars less. Daft

[STMO123]

Something needs to be done. We pay stupid amounts on road tax, stupid amounts of tax on the fuel we buy and now they're on about expanding the number of toll roads. Thats like charging us 3 times to use a vehicle on the road!! They want us to use public transport more, but its hopeless at best. And they want us to use our cars less. Daft

Public transport. I went into town today with wife and son. I knew it would be a bugger to park and it's only 2 miles so I thought I'd check out the bus. £5 each way vs £1 in the car park. I went in the car.

[Kevin Wood]

Something needs to be done. We pay stupid amounts on road tax, stupid amounts of tax on the fuel we buy and now they're on about expanding the number of toll roads. Thats like charging us 3 times to use a vehicle on the road!! They want us to use public transport more, but its hopeless at best. And they want us to use our cars less. Daft

Public transport. I went into town today with wife and son. I knew it would be a bugger to park and it's only 2 miles so I thought I'd check out the bus. £5 each way vs £1 in the car park. I went in the car.

We went on the bus. Bus we planned to take simply didn't turn up. Next one was late, then two turned up in convoy. 45 minutes standing in the drizzle at a bus top. Thanks, Stagecoach.

[omega3000]

Something needs to be done. We pay stupid amounts on road tax, stupid amounts of tax on the fuel we buy and now they're on about expanding the number of toll roads. Thats like charging us 3 times to use a vehicle on the road!! They want us to use public transport more, but its hopeless at best. And they want us to use our cars less. Daft

Public transport. I went into town today with wife and son. I knew it would be a bugger to park and it's only 2 miles so I thought I'd check out the bus. £5 each way vs £1 in the car park. I went in the car.

 

Things have gone up 
Last time i went on a bus it was 80p 

[Rods2]

Road tax, will never ever be scrapped, until it is replaced by road pricing, for the simple reason that as more cars become hybrids and also more fuel efficient, the Government are going to be looking at revenue replacement, which is why they are currently taking about changing road tax bands. So in the not too distant future expect to be paying much more if you drive anything less efficient than a 60mpg FWD Eurobox.

In the first 9 months of this year, we used 2,000,000,000 less gallons of fuel than for the same period in 2008. Why?

1. Fuel tax is now the wrong side of the Laffer curve and the Government know it, which is why the Government keep deferring the 3p/l increase as they know it will reduce their revenues more!

2.Wages in real terms are now 13.2% less than in 2008 and still dropping, so the UK population are using their cars less and also mere efficiently, by doing more things in one journey, to cut their number of journeys and mileage.

3.There has been about 10% drop in the number of cars on the road, where many people, who have been hit by the recession can no longer afford to run a car.

4. Old cars are being replaced by smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles.

5. As the country continues to get poorer and the percentage of your overall income taken in tax increases, then all of the above factors will increase.

This is why the Government are going all out for road pricing, when they can charge your vehicle for all road journeys, with rush hour time being charged at considerable premiums. With electric cars they can't tax all electricity to make up the revenue. So it won't be long before you are paying £1 a mile in peak times at peak places plus fuel taxes if you own an old fuel driven car. Eventually, once the whole of the UK network is covered by road pricing this will probably replace road tax. The big advantage of road pricing for Governments is that they can decide on how much revenue, motorist must produce for a given year and set the pricing accordingly. Road pricing could in future be applied to all movement of people in public areas where the Government spends money on our behalf to maintain, roads, cycle ways, pavements, public parks etc, with movement pricing. It will just be compulsory to carry your mobile phone with you at all times to monitor your movements, mobile phones can currently place your position to within about 1 metre, so you are charged accordingly, with heavy fines for those caught on CCTV without their movement charging mobile, the fines will be sent to you automatically through face recognition. These types of projects are all being funded by the EU at the moment to get the technology working and then to decide which will be politically acceptable. The target is to have a EU wide road pricing system in place by 2020, so they know all of your vehicle movements. Welcome to 1984.

The next generation of batteries will be super quick charging (the technology has been developed at a Canadian university), so 100-200 mile plus range and 10-20 minute recharge times are on the horizon. A major cost is going to be upgrading the electricity infrastructure, to allow such high charging currents on domestic supplies. The new Tesla car shows some of what is the future. We will also see more hybrids like the £1m per car Jag project that has just been scrapped. Initially they used miniature gas turbines, but then switched to a 1.6 500BHP engine, to produce electricity for electric motors.

We are going to see many more hybrids over the next few years as car manufacturers, work out the most efficient way of reducing energy costs per mile. A fixed rpm engine to drive a generator is much more efficient than current petrol engines, it is then the case of making the rest of the package work on cost, weight and efficiency grounds.

[symes]

Dont worry about road tax-The money grabbers will dream up some reason to take our money-and we will moan about it but pay it anyway!!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I understand, and agree with many of your points symes.  However as I stated before:

"The question here is what is fair for Joe Public.  In regards to road use I believe it is fairer for individuals to pay more for high road usage than those who use the roads in a limited manner.  The  Government will be controlled on the costs they pass on to motorists by the political climate and the general market forces. That is why the expected 3p increase in fuel duty has been scrapped, and as a separate, but similar situation, railway ticket prices are being held back from the levels the railway companies want to charge."

....it all depends on what us, the public, will accept from the government and all other politicians of the day.  You have also touched on "which will be politically acceptable", and that is the key.  The politicians will not have free reign on this, and as shown by the recent scrapping of the 3p fuel duty increase, public opinion (future votes) has a power all of it's own.  Where Europe is concerned in all this appears to me to be not in the frame as I cannot imagine a current, or future government, getting that policy through the House of Commons and accepted by an already very  sceptical people, swinging constantly towards the UKIP or simply leaving the EU regardless.

I am the last person who wants to pay more than I have to for my motoring.  I'd be a fool and a liar to state that!  However, we all must accept that we do have to pay something for our travels, whether it is in a private vehicle or using public transport.

In the past only the rich could afford to run cars.  Then in the 1950's that I remember, most people still did not own a car or could drive. Indeed in 1958 I can remember there were just two motor vehicles parked most nights in our road; one was the butchers A30 van, and the other was an Atcost Ford Thames Trader builders van.  My parents, along with all other people we knew then, did not drive.  They could not afford to.  However, we know what happened in the 1960's; one big "owner car" boom that more and more people suddenly could afford.  In relative terms motoring then was not "cheap", and it never has been, or will be, as it all must be paid for. Then it was for all the new motorways, bypasses and river crossings to cope with the booming road traffic and, even more importantly, the demands of the commercial sector to move freight.

However, harking back to the past is of no use, we know what is today is a fact; heavily congested roads; greatly increasing rail traffic, and even ever increasing air use. The infrastructure to support all this must be improved, expanded, and that will take big money.  We the consumers will have to pay one way or another, but again it will be public opinion and political pressure, along with market forces, that will control the amount of revenue raised.  The abolishment of the RFL is going to happen, as the current system costs more than a system whereby the revenue is raised on every gallon used in fuel tanks, so that as with any other form of transport you pay for the distance travelled and the infrasture used.

The electric car, at their current prices, has some way to go before it becomes a realistic alternative for more people to own one. The amount of motorists using them will be low for some time, so the number of motorists still using the internal combustion engine to propel them around, in one of the 10's of thousands of those vehicles still being built is going to form the vast majority of road users.  That results in what we see currently, in that political and commercial pressure from that group inhibits whatever the government of the day wishes to do in terms of taxing to discourage road use by petrol or diesel vehicles.  But, again I stress, we Joe Public will have to accept that we must pay for our travel, but in a fair way.  That final point will dictate the colours of future governments, and even our membership of the EU in part or in full.

As for the use of technology to keep track on us; sorry, but that already exists in our everyday lives.  Numerous CCTV monitoring on every main road, in towns / cities / villages; ANPR; City Road Charging; computer monitoring of where we shop, what we buy and when; police use of mobile phone GPS systems; linked central computers, along with GCHQ and other intelligence agencies gathering intelligence in ways we will never know - yes we are being tracked already.  Road charging is just going to be an extension to all that is in place now.

What we need in all respects of road and vehicle taxing is transparency from the government, and an understanding of where the cash raised from us is being spent, and on what.  One thing is for sure, if this country is going to remain a global commercial power house, with a growing industrial sector, trillions of pounds must be spent, and you, I, and future generations will pay for it!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Sorry, I meant to address the above post to Rods2, not symes!

[symes]

Thats ok I got lost in what you was saying anyway-I do that sometimes

[omega3000]

Get a sterling sapphire , and be tax free 
Electric is the power of the future 

[symes]

No mmate power of the future will be-feet or horses