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[omega3000]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21293598

Hope its not anywhere near cem 

[cem_devecioglu]

nope.. 
 
 
 
 

[cem_devecioglu]

and if any group want to attack this embassy , why use a bomber ? embassy is highly protected not much chance to damage..
 
so many questions and I cant see the logic for this type of attack..

[dbdb]

The bomber couldn't hope to get past xray.  Maybe he was hoping the ambassador would come personally to meet Didem Tuncay
  who was due apparently "to have tea with him".  She was badly injured in the blast.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

The logic?

Before Cem explains, I will quickly outline the problem for those who cannot see it:

Well Turkey was the centre of the Otterman Empire, an Empire that equalled the one from Rome, and later centred on Byzantium - later named Constantinople, then with the Otterman's in 1453, today's Istanbul. A Muslim country, sitting between the West and East, Christian and Muslim countries, that is now more secular than most after the Otterman Empire died just under 100 years ago. Turkey has allowed Western allies (Christian) to base their aircraft on their airbases and to launch attacks on Middle Eastern (Muslim)targets.

The upshot to this is that many Middle Eastern, and elsewhere, Muslims are no doubt pretty pissed off and want Turkey to decide against the West, while Turkey (correct me Cem if am wrong!) as I see it as a Westerner, wants closer ties with Europe.  Within Turkey and outside there is much conflict politically, and now with violence flaring as in this attack on the infidel American Embassy, an outstanding symbol of Western Imperialism that Muslims of extreme desires will focus their hate on. This attack is obviously yet another token gesture of Muslim anger;)

As an add on I would also state to those worried about immigration in Britain, and especially London as per another thread, worry instead that the Western military forces under the direction of political masters, still see fit to invade Muslim countries and wreak havoc. Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.  Hate is building constantly against us in the west, just as much as hatred of the German's built up as they committed to war across Europe and the Soviet Union.  If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

God, in Europe we should have learnt by now war achieves nothing!!

[05omegav6]

nope.. 

Glad to here it

Be sure to keep your head down and keep safe

[cem_devecioglu]

nope.. 

Glad to hear it

Be sure to keep your head down and keep safe

thanks Al.. 
 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.

If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

So which countries are we talking about Lizzie?  'These Muslim countries' is a bit of a sweeping statement if you ask me....   

Are you really suggesting that NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?    or maybe the French in Mali are raping and pillaging their way across the desert!   

From what I saw on various news channels, the general population in Mali were damn glad to see the French and were thankful to them for getting rid of the Islamists/Jihadists/Rebels/Terrorists whatever you want to call them... 

Do you believe that if all western troops were pulled out of Muslim countries and a unilateral truce with Al Quaida was announced that they would respect that and leave us in peace? 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.

If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

So which countries are we talking about Lizzie? 'These Muslim countries' is a bit of a sweeping statement if you ask me....   

Are you really suggesting that NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?    or maybe the French in Mali are raping and pillaging their way across the desert!   

From what I saw on various news channels, the general population in Mali were damn glad to see the French and were thankful to them for getting rid of the Islamists/Jihadists/Rebels/Terrorists whatever you want to call them... 

Do you believe that if all western troops were pulled out of Muslim countries and a unilateral truce with Al Quaida was announced that they would respect that and leave us in peace? 

Firstly TigerHayes I would answer with Iraq and Afghanistan, were Western armies have fought for decades / a century and only stirred up further hatred of the West.  Add to that Egypt which Britain abused for decades until the Suez crisis, a further war, where again Britain did no favours for itself. Coupled to that all the other Middle Eastern states that the west have muddled with.

In answer to "NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?" well no, of course not.  But what I mean is the constant "mistakes" in attacking civilian targets and killing women and children, let alone innocent men, makes the west appear to be like the German's when they fought wars on other peoples lands. The Germans were generally the enemy to most of the populations they ran across from the start, whilst the Western forces are trying to be a friend to all, but becoming enemies of many as innocents are killed "by mistaken" military action, and of course the alleged torturing of prisoners as the Nazis would have done.  The result is the same; widespread distrust and animosity that sows the wind for future conflict as wars often have in the past!

What is wrong in trying to broker peace if that avoids further war?  Let's give peace a chance as, being brutally frank, the west have been losing the war since the recent episode started after 9/11; or was that really the First Gulf War in 1990/91?  All the west has done, yet again, is stir up hatred and mistrust.  After the killing of Bin Laden, THE big target, a ceasefire should have ensued with a chance given for peace talks.  As  Winston Churchill once famously said "It is far better to jaw jaw than war war!"

The west will never win with its current policy of fighting a war with hidden terrorists / freedom fighters involved and not a full traditional battlefield of enemy combatants. It must find a new way of winning Islamic minds who believe the USA is the Great Satan, and Britain the Little Satan.

The  French may have started to win the first round of their battle, but their war has only just begun with a lot more to do and suffer. The French President has admitted that there is still a long way to go, and he is right.

What do I suggest?  I would pull back all troops to man a well patrolled border throughout Europe to prevent any potential terrorists in, whilst putting all our efforts into diplomacy. The Afghans are virtually ready to take on their own security, so for now keep the west out and let them get on with it. 

We certainly must find a better answer than so far we have failed to do in the west.

Remember, war has been the final cause of all the great empires downfalls.  Let war not be the downfall of the west in it's entirety!

 

[Rods2]

Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.

If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

So which countries are we talking about Lizzie?  'These Muslim countries' is a bit of a sweeping statement if you ask me....   

Are you really suggesting that NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?    or maybe the French in Mali are raping and pillaging their way across the desert!   

From what I saw on various news channels, the general population in Mali were damn glad to see the French and were thankful to them for getting rid of the Islamists/Jihadists/Rebels/Terrorists whatever you want to call them... 

Do you believe that if all western troops were pulled out of Muslim countries and a unilateral truce with Al Quaida was announced that they would respect that and leave us in peace? 

Nope, it is like the useful fool socialists wanted to let communism spread all over the world as it was no threat, fortunately the Americans and the Western World fought where necessary to stop it happening. The same socialists have the same attitude to Islam and can't see any threat to Western civilization either. Most civilizations are destroyed from within and Europe has no divine right to carry on advancing technologically. After the fall of the Roman empire Europe and especially the UK went backwards for 100's of years where we lost their technologies in the dark age.

If you don't want this country by 2066 being a majority Muslim state then you have got to do your bit to stop it by supporting a ban on immigration (vote UKIP) and start breeding. An average Muslim family in the UK has 8.2 children and an average Christian family has 1.6 where you need 2.11 for the Christian population to just stay static!

Once a country is majority Muslim then the Middle East shows that it tends to be ethically cleansed of other religions. This is currently happening in Egypt, Iraq and Syria and Africa, hence the French intervention in Mali. 80% of Imams are radical extremists as this is what has motivated then to become an Imam in the first place! So the chances of this country being in control of moderate Muslims once they are the majority is slim. Moderate Mulims won't necessarily support it but they won't go against the Imams either.

Remember this will lead to the banning of pork, alcohol, mixed education, women's equality, music and most current TV programs for starters. Most OOFers will be too old for this to affect them, but it will your children and grand children.

To show how peaceful the religion is, were there mass riots by Christians and death threats over the Film "The Life of Brian",  which some Christians thought was blasphemous? Now consider the response to "Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie, the Danish Mohammed cartoons in Denmark and the Muslim film released in America last year. As a Christian you are taught to love thy neighbour. Radical Muslims are taught to kill the infidel. As one Imam put it: Christians love life, we love death.

The majority of moderate Muslims are like moderate Christians and just want to get on with life and raise their families etc, but the radical Muslims have a very different agenda as we have seen with 7/7 and numerous other thwarted attacks.

Appeasers are like Churchill said: "They feed all their friends to the crocodiles, hoping it will eat them last"

In 1970 the world's population was 20% Western countries and 15% Muslim. By 2005 it was 15% Western countries and 20% Muslims. The US strategically expects to be the lone major Christian Western country by 2100. I have not read it yet, but a book "America Alone" by Mark Steyn. Mark Steyn used to have a column in the DT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_Alone

Here is a lecture Mark Steyn gave on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6IMJ6asESM

[cem_devecioglu]

The logic?

Before Cem explains, I will quickly outline the problem for those who cannot see it:

Well Turkey was the centre of the Otterman Empire, an Empire that equalled the one from Rome, and later centred on Byzantium - later named Constantinople, then with the Otterman's in 1453, today's Istanbul. A Muslim country, sitting between the West and East, Christian and Muslim countries, that is now more secular than most after the Otterman Empire died just under 100 years ago. Turkey has allowed Western allies (Christian) to base their aircraft on their airbases and to launch attacks on Middle Eastern (Muslim)targets.

The upshot to this is that many Middle Eastern, and elsewhere, Muslims are no doubt pretty pissed off and want Turkey to decide against the West, while Turkey (correct me Cem if am wrong!) as I see it as a Westerner, wants closer ties with Europe.  Within Turkey and outside there is much conflict politically, and now with violence flaring as in this attack on the infidel American Embassy, an outstanding symbol of Western Imperialism that Muslims of extreme desires will focus their hate on. This attack is obviously yet another token gesture of Muslim anger;)

As an add on I would also state to those worried about immigration in Britain, and especially London as per another thread, worry instead that the Western military forces under the direction of political masters, still see fit to invade Muslim countries and wreak havoc. Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.  Hate is building constantly against us in the west, just as much as hatred of the German's built up as they committed to war across Europe and the Soviet Union.  If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

God, in Europe we should have learnt by now war achieves nothing!!

very good Lizzie
 
I would add some extra things but these are highly political so I will pm you the details.. 

[cem_devecioglu]

Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.

If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

So which countries are we talking about Lizzie? 'These Muslim countries' is a bit of a sweeping statement if you ask me....   

Are you really suggesting that NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?    or maybe the French in Mali are raping and pillaging their way across the desert!   

From what I saw on various news channels, the general population in Mali were damn glad to see the French and were thankful to them for getting rid of the Islamists/Jihadists/Rebels/Terrorists whatever you want to call them... 

Do you believe that if all western troops were pulled out of Muslim countries and a unilateral truce with Al Quaida was announced that they would respect that and leave us in peace? 

Firstly TigerHayes I would answer with Iraq and Afghanistan, were Western armies have fought for decades / a century and only stirred up further hatred of the West.  Add to that Egypt which Britain abused for decades until the Suez crisis, a further war, where again Britain did no favours for itself. Coupled to that all the other Middle Eastern states that the west have muddled with.

In answer to "NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?" well no, of course not.  But what I mean is the constant "mistakes" in attacking civilian targets and killing women and children, let alone innocent men, makes the west appear to be like the German's when they fought wars on other peoples lands. The Germans were generally the enemy to most of the populations they ran across from the start, whilst the Western forces are trying to be a friend to all, but becoming enemies of many as innocents are killed "by mistaken" military action, and of course the alleged torturing of prisoners as the Nazis would have done.  The result is the same; widespread distrust and animosity that sows the wind for future conflict as wars often have in the past!

What is wrong in trying to broker peace if that avoids further war?  Let's give peace a chance as, being brutally frank, the west have been losing the war since the recent episode started after 9/11; or was that really the First Gulf War in 1990/91?  All the west has done, yet again, is stir up hatred and mistrust.  After the killing of Bin Laden, THE big target, a ceasefire should have ensued with a chance given for peace talks.  As  Winston Churchill once famously said "It is far better to jaw jaw than war war!"

The west will never win with its current policy of fighting a war with hidden terrorists / freedom fighters involved and not a full traditional battlefield of enemy combatants. It must find a new way of winning Islamic minds who believe the USA is the Great Satan, and Britain the Little Satan.

The  French may have started to win the first round of their battle, but their war has only just begun with a lot more to do and suffer. The French President has admitted that there is still a long way to go, and he is right.

What do I suggest?  I would pull back all troops to man a well patrolled border throughout Europe to prevent any potential terrorists in, whilst putting all our efforts into diplomacy. The Afghans are virtually ready to take on their own security, so for now keep the west out and let them get on with it. 

We certainly must find a better answer than so far we have failed to do in the west.

Remember, war has been the final cause of all the great empires downfalls.  Let war not be the downfall of the west in it's entirety!

phew.. a real historian .. no need for me

[mantahatch]

Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.

If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

So which countries are we talking about Lizzie?  'These Muslim countries' is a bit of a sweeping statement if you ask me....   

Are you really suggesting that NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?    or maybe the French in Mali are raping and pillaging their way across the desert!   

From what I saw on various news channels, the general population in Mali were damn glad to see the French and were thankful to them for getting rid of the Islamists/Jihadists/Rebels/Terrorists whatever you want to call them... 

Do you believe that if all western troops were pulled out of Muslim countries and a unilateral truce with Al Quaida was announced that they would respect that and leave us in peace? 

Nope, it is like the useful fool socialists wanted to let communism spread all over the world as it was no threat, fortunately the Americans and the Western World fought where necessary to stop it happening. The same socialists have the same attitude to Islam and can't see any threat to Western civilization either. Most civilizations are destroyed from within and Europe has no divine right to carry on advancing technologically. After the fall of the Roman empire Europe and especially the UK went backwards for 100's of years where we lost their technologies in the dark age.

If you don't want this country by 2066 being a majority Muslim state then you have got to do your bit to stop it by supporting a ban on immigration (vote UKIP) and start breeding. An average Muslim family in the UK has 8.2 children and an average Christian family has 1.6 where you need 2.11 for the Christian population to just stay static!

Once a country is majority Muslim then the Middle East shows that it tends to be ethically cleansed of other religions. This is currently happening in Egypt, Iraq and Syria and Africa, hence the French intervention in Mali. 80% of Imams are radical extremists as this is what has motivated then to become an Imam in the first place! So the chances of this country being in control of moderate Muslims once they are the majority is slim. Moderate Mulims won't necessarily support it but they won't go against the Imams either.

Remember this will lead to the banning of pork, alcohol, mixed education, women's equality, music and most current TV programs for starters. Most OOFers will be too old for this to affect them, but it will your children and grand children.

To show how peaceful the religion is, were there mass riots by Christians and death threats over the Film "The Life of Brian",  which some Christians thought was blasphemous? Now consider the response to "Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie, the Danish Mohammed cartoons in Denmark and the Muslim film released in America last year. As a Christian you are taught to love thy neighbour. Radical Muslims are taught to kill the infidel. As one Imam put it: Christians love life, we love death.

The majority of moderate Muslims are like moderate Christians and just want to get on with life and raise their families etc, but the radical Muslims have a very different agenda as we have seen with 7/7 and numerous other thwarted attacks.

Appeasers are like Churchill said: "They feed all their friends to the crocodiles, hoping it will eat them last"

In 1970 the world's population was 20% Western countries and 15% Muslim. By 2005 it was 15% Western countries and 20% Muslims. The US strategically expects to be the lone major Christian Western country by 2100. I have not read it yet, but a book "America Alone" by Mark Steyn. Mark Steyn used to have a column in the DT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_Alone

Here is a lecture Mark Steyn gave on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6IMJ6asESM

It is only called the "dark ages" because today we know so little about those times.

[albitz]

We didnt attack or invade Egypt.We helped them in their "Arab spring",which iirc Lizzie,you were very much in favour of at the time.
Now,Christians in Egypt are being persecuted (even rumours of them being crucified),by their own Muslim countrymen.
The rise of Muslim fundamentalism (which is happening on a global scale) must be stopped by whatever means it takes.
As for the Ankara attack.Responsibilty has been claimed by a marxist,U.S. hating group.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21305950

[cem_devecioglu]

Still our western armies are bombing, strafing, and generally killing innocent men, woman and children in these Muslim countries.

If you want your nation and way of life to be hated, then just go and bomb some other countries civilian population!

So, for those who genuinely want so called dangerous elements not to infiltrate Britain as immigrants, then demand the politicians pull our troops out of Muslim countries and use democratic, peaceful means to reach objectives.

So which countries are we talking about Lizzie?  'These Muslim countries' is a bit of a sweeping statement if you ask me....   

Are you really suggesting that NATO troops in Afghanistan go round murdering the civilian population like the Nazis did?    or maybe the French in Mali are raping and pillaging their way across the desert!   

From what I saw on various news channels, the general population in Mali were damn glad to see the French and were thankful to them for getting rid of the Islamists/Jihadists/Rebels/Terrorists whatever you want to call them... 

Do you believe that if all western troops were pulled out of Muslim countries and a unilateral truce with Al Quaida was announced that they would respect that and leave us in peace? 

If you don't want this country by 2066 being a majority Muslim state then you have got to do your bit to stop it by supporting a ban on immigration (vote UKIP) and start breeding. An average Muslim family in the UK has 8.2 children and an average Christian family has 1.6 where you need 2.11 for the Christian population to just stay static!

Once a country is majority Muslim then the Middle East shows that it tends to be ethically cleansed of other religions. This is currently happening in Egypt, Iraq and Syria and Africa, hence the French intervention in Mali. 80% of Imams are radical extremists as this is what has motivated then to become an Imam in the first place! So the chances of this country being in control of moderate Muslims once they are the majority is slim. Moderate Mulims won't necessarily support it but they won't go against the Imams either.

Remember this will lead to the banning of pork, alcohol, mixed education, women's equality, music and most current TV programs for starters. Most OOFers will be too old for this to affect them, but it will your children and grand children.

To show how peaceful the religion is, were there mass riots by Christians and death threats over the Film "The Life of Brian",  which some Christians thought was blasphemous? Now consider the response to "Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie, the Danish Mohammed cartoons in Denmark and the Muslim film released in America last year. As a Christian you are taught to love thy neighbour. Radical Muslims are taught to kill the infidel. As one Imam put it: Christians love life, we love death.

The majority of moderate Muslims are like moderate Christians and just want to get on with life and raise their families etc, but the radical Muslims have a very different agenda as we have seen with 7/7 and numerous other thwarted attacks.

Appeasers are like Churchill said: "They feed all their friends to the crocodiles, hoping it will eat them last"

In 1970 the world's population was 20% Western countries and 15% Muslim. By 2005 it was 15% Western countries and 20% Muslims. The US strategically expects to be the lone major Christian Western country by 2100. I have not read it yet, but a book "America Alone" by Mark Steyn. Mark Steyn used to have a column in the DT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_Alone

Here is a lecture Mark Steyn gave on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6IMJ6asESM

 
facts!