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Author Topic: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy  (Read 3729 times)

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Rods2

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Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« on: 08 February 2015, 03:06:22 »

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/07/war-and-the-putin-negotiations/

Merkel and Hollande have been arch appeasers again and left a meeting with Putin where they have been trying to broker another ceasefire with their tails between their legs. There has been an article in the telegraph on this, with official Merkel and Hollande statements.

The reason why is that Putin is threatening to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine and the EU if the US and / or NATO countries supply Ukraine with defensive weapons.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/08/putin-threatens-to-use-nuclear-warheads-against-ukraine-eu/

Where I've been studying Putin for sometime, I'm well aware of the infinite value he places on his own life and the zero amount on everybody elses in the world, so an if I go as much of humanity goes with me is something I've known for sometime as a distinct possibility. There are rumours of discontent with his leadership amongst sections of the higher echelons in Russian society, especially the oligarchies which is going to increase the pressure on him but none the less the bully is going to have to be called.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/05/rift-emerging-between-putin-and-his-circle-russian-analyst/

With Reagan and Thatcher I have no doubt they would have faced such a bully down, much before now, and avoided a nuclear conflict, but with Obama / Rice, Cameron, Merkel and Hollande they are made of putty rather than iron!

Like Cuba such bullying is going to have to be called or we all cower and surcome to his nuclear threats and blackmailing, dangerous times lie ahead.
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Varche

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #1 on: 08 February 2015, 09:19:49 »

I wondered who had given Merkel and Hollande the mandate to go and have discussions? Where is our mouse Cameron? (ah election year!)

I also wonder how good Putins personal body guards are? If the sanctions are really hurting the oligarchs it might not be beyond reason that they ordered a hit and replaced him with one of their amenable puppets. After all money is what really drives everything.

You are right we have dangerous times ahead. Still a war would resolve the Euro crisis at a stroke.
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Shackeng

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #2 on: 08 February 2015, 09:25:13 »

What amazes me is that the events unfolding in Ukraine including Crimea are like a re-run of 1938/9. Don't hold your breath waiting for our illustrious leaders to open their history books. >:( >:( >:(
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Rods2

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #3 on: 08 February 2015, 15:43:34 »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/08/us-ukraine-crisis-kerry-idUSKBN0LC09A20150208

Kerry denies there is a split between Germany and the US, where the US Government is being increasingly criticised on being out of step with Europe where Obama's untenable weak dealings with Putin are a little bit harder than Merkel / Hollande who will sell Ukraine out at any price. It is not their land and they have cars / ships they want to sell to Russia to keep their popularity and future votes as high as possible and they need to keep the Russian gas flowing to their countries.

Merkel record in Germany is one of always avoiding confrontation by basically giving in, she is known as the woman who has put German politics too sleep. Hollande is an idiot, the joke in the global presidential pack. >:( >:( >:(

The problem in the US is that you have a president who is a good orator but has not practical leadership experience, so there isn't any and has zero interest in foreign policy who doesn't read about 40% of his important briefs. Susan Rice Obama's FP expert is IMO probably not even as good as that useless EU bint Lady Ashton. The US is the world's policemen as between Obama / Rice between them they have managed to create tremendous global instability, where ruthless dictators and terrorist chance their arms to carve out growing empires.

This shower of sh*t is what represents Western security against a ruthless driven ex-KGB operator, which is why Ukraine is being sold out to Russia, as this pile of sh*t like Chamberlain want temporary peace at any price. >:( >:( >:(

Personally, in all of my lifetime I never known such a useless bunch of self-serving leaders as we have now in the West.
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #4 on: 08 February 2015, 16:41:22 »

Calm down Rods, you don't want another stroke!  :o  ::)  ;)

I think you're probably right though in that the Western world has sat by and let Putin do what he likes in Ukraine.  If anything the sanctions have just spurred him on.  :-\
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The Sheriff

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #5 on: 08 February 2015, 17:45:29 »

My thoughts, for what they are worth, is that the leaders in the west just don't think Ukraine is worth getting into an all-out conflict with Russia for. It was, until recently, a soviet satellite and is not a member of NATO. Putin knows this, and will push it as far as he can.
If he decided to go further than Ukraine, then he knows the west would be left with no choice but to fight. That would be a different proposition.
The nearest analogy I can draw is what happened to Poland after the second world war. Their pilots came over here to fight with us and were fearless, but we still gave it to Stalin.
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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #6 on: 08 February 2015, 17:49:23 »

And also, Rods, you know that if it came to a choice between giving up on Ukraine or risking your own peoples safety and security, you would do the same. The west feels no affinity with Ukraine and, if the worse did happen, it would be to stop Putin, not save Ukraine.
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Shackeng

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #7 on: 08 February 2015, 18:43:05 »

My thoughts, for what they are worth, is that the leaders in the west just don't think Ukraine is worth getting into an all-out conflict with Russia for. It was, until recently, a soviet satellite and is not a member of NATO. Putin knows this, and will push it as far as he can.
If he decided to go further than Ukraine, then he knows the west would be left with no choice but to fight. That would be a different proposition.
The nearest analogy I can draw is what happened to Poland after the second world war. Their pilots came over here to fight with us and were fearless, but we still gave it to Stalin.

Spooky that part of Ukraine was basically part of Poland originally!
« Last Edit: 08 February 2015, 18:46:33 by Shackeng »
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Rods2

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #8 on: 08 February 2015, 21:01:14 »

Ukraine means 'in-land', 'native-land' and since the 16th century more commonly 'borderlands' and as a pivotal country in Europe, over the ages their borders and countries of influence have changed with parts of it for most of the time being a self ruled independent state. The formation of Ukraine as the Kievan Rus state started in 881 and grew until the 12th Century when it was the biggest state in Europe. All of the Rus states were ruled from Kiev so Ukraine actually existed before Russia did as a state. Ukraine is the mother of the Russian state, not the other way around like Putin likes to imply in his 'own version' of history for propaganda and annexation purposes.

Yes, the West part, West of the Dnieper river, has been part of Poland and at times other Western empires, which is why they are very Western looking. Putin's current war where the majority of Ukraine becomes part of the province New-Russia has not to date included this Western region as he has rightly concluded that trying to hold it against Ukrainian Partisan forces would make it too expensive in Russian lives. There is already considerable Partisan activity in the Donbass region and that will only get worse as Putin moves North and East.

The problem is that even if Putin annexes it the problem is not going to go away as there will be an Afghanistan situation in the heart of Europe. The much bigger danger is that to stay in power after most of Ukraine, and all of Moldova and Georgia are part of a Russian empire again, he will need need new enemies and wars. All of the immediate satellite '-stans' will work for a bit as he further expands his empire by taking them over to protect the 'Russian speaking populations', then he will be testing the water in the Baltics which are very difficult for NATO to defend, if they choose to do so. Personally, I don't think they will. Why would Aunty Merkel want to risk a war with Uncle Vlad to defend 3 very small countries?

The big advantage of backing Ukraine, with defensive weapons and financial help is that Ukraine as a non-NATO country is and will continue to do the fighting for the West and there won't be an infinitely more dangerous, direct NATO-Russian forces confrontation. So it is actually in the West's interests for Ukraine to do the fighting for them to a stalemate or even a partial victory. There two political reasons why this isn't happening: Obama / Rice long term global strategy that as long as you're nice to your enemies, eventually they will be as nice and dandy to you back, it is just going to take time. This resultant power-vacuum is why there is such horrendous global upheaval at the moment. With Europe it is all about their dependence on Russian gas, the biggest by far, by volume is Germany and Merkel is hoping, mistakenly IMO, the crocodile Putin will eat Germany last.

Poland has sensibly made the decision that they will need to fight Russia without US and NATO support and are modernizing and training to NATO standards and building up their military forces and civil defences up as fast as possible. Merkel has made it clear she is not interested in getting involved in any military conflict in any circumstances, East of the Oder river, which largely forms the German-Polish border.

One of the commitments of belonging to NATO is to spend 2% of GDP on defence. Only 4 countries do so: Estonia, Greece, UK and US. Germanies is 1.3% which is on the lower side of average for European countries. They expect like too many other European countries to have their collective defence on the cheap, with minimum spending and other NATO forces coming to the rescue if they get into trouble as a result.

Personally, I think the West is pinned its hopes on Putin falling due to a combination of economic sanctions and low oil price, if so it is an incredibly dangerous game as Putin has made it perfectly clear he intends to cling to power at whatever the cost, more strongly than a leech taking part in a bloodfest competition.

Putin allegedly killing 300 Muscovites by bombing apartment blocks to consolidate his power and as an excuse to start the Second Chechen war that killed over 300,000. This shows he will do whatever he has to do to anybody to stay in power. Any human life only has a slight worth to him if they are totally loyal and committed to work for his benefit, otherwise they are worth zero.

Unchecked, if he has to nuke a few billion people to stay in power he will do so and the danger of this will continue to grow as he gets bolder and consolidates his absolute position and authority as a ruthless Russian Dictator. More wise heads and sensible council are already ready gradually disappearing, replaced by more and more like minded flunkies, telling him what he wants to hear. The longer this continues the fewer sensible Kremin suits there will be around him to stop a human catastrophe.
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The Sheriff

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #9 on: 08 February 2015, 21:20:54 »

That's just one scenario, Rods, your scenario. You have a knack of making things sound like fact, but it isn't, it's merely conjecture. Granted, it's conjecture which may prove to be true, but you seem to be looking far into the future, and lots of events can happen in the mean time to change the course you have plotted.
You say he is willing to nuke billions of people to stay in power, but I think even he knows that there would be nothing left to rule. The old MAD (mutual assured destruction) scenario would happen and, personally, I dont believe he would allowed to get to that point.

Wait and see can sometimes appear as indecision, but it's better than ill thought out haste.
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Rods2

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #10 on: 09 February 2015, 02:52:14 »

Of course there is an element of conjecture, where many people are trying to mold the future and as outsiders, we only know what we are told about what happens at any leader's meeting, not what they don't want us to know.

But back to the immediate and conjecture: Was this another Ukrainian Partisan action last night or a drunk Russian terrorist having a Darwin moment and wondering what would happen if he threw a grenade into an ammo dump: Bangs like this are out of TB's league!

http://empr.media/video/conflict-zone/powerful-blast-of-russian-ammunition-in-donetsk
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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #11 on: 12 February 2015, 09:27:16 »

Agreement reached a few minutes ago, ceasefire from Sunday..... Apparently.
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Rods2

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #12 on: 12 February 2015, 12:25:39 »

Agreement reached a few minutes ago, ceasefire from Sunday..... Apparently.

Very good news if it holds and that's a very big if. ???
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Varche

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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #13 on: 12 February 2015, 13:11:57 »

Yes , good news.

I would like to see the details that were agreed that we won't be told.
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Re: Ukraine - Odd Day's Diplomacy
« Reply #14 on: 12 February 2015, 13:43:52 »

Agreement reached a few minutes ago, ceasefire from Sunday..... Apparently.



And will finish as soon as the froggies give ivan his helicopter carrier that they have built for Russia and been paid for but refuse to deliver because of all this shite   ;)
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