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Author Topic: Russian Bears  (Read 4177 times)

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Sir Tigger KC

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Russian Bears
« on: 19 February 2015, 23:50:22 »

As in the Tupolev Tu-95 'Bear' bombers, and not Webbys eastern cousins!  :)

So these 1950's turbo prop bombers have been popping up quite a lot recently and we dispatch a couple of Typhoons to escort them off the premises.  :y 

But are they any sort of threat?  :-\  Should we be more worried?  :-\  They seem to be regarded as a bit of a nuisance and that they're just sabre rattling, but could these flights have a more sinister mission?  ::) 

One thing that does worry me slightly, is that it was reported tonight that 2 'Bears' were 'spotted' off the coast of Cornwall.  It seems extraordinary to me that we didn't spot these old leviathans until then.  ::) I've no military or aviation knowledge/experience but I'd have thought that they would have been seen and tracked from the moment they entered international airspace if not before?  ???  :-\

Maybe the RAF is so skint that they had to have a whip round in the mess for fuel, and by the time they caught up with the Ruskies they were off of Newquay!  :o  ;D  Tally Ho!!  ;D

PS: I've just seen critiscism of the RAF for intervening in the Russian Airforce's mission to 'regenerate' Camborne!  :-X  :D  ;D
« Last Edit: 20 February 2015, 00:06:10 by Sir Tigger »
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05omegav6

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #1 on: 20 February 2015, 00:13:25 »

Apparently they have a nasty habit of flying around international airspace whilst randomly turning their ident beacons on and off :o

Been a few very close shaves over the years with them straying into commercial air routes...
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #2 on: 20 February 2015, 00:55:55 »

Dosn't military radar pick them up regardless of whether they have their ident beacons on or off?  ???   If they were on a serious bombing mission they'd hardly be broadcasting their location to all and sundrey...  ::)  :D
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05omegav6

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #3 on: 20 February 2015, 01:11:49 »

Dosn't military radar pick them up regardless of whether they have their ident beacons on or off?  ???   If they were on a serious bombing mission they'd hardly be broadcasting their location to all and sundrey...  ::)  :D
Hence scrambling the Typhoons inspite of the Bears being in international airspace :y
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omega2018

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #4 on: 20 February 2015, 02:21:53 »

we dispatch a couple of Typhoons to escort them off the premises international airspace:y 

But are they any sort of threat?  :-\  Should we be more worried?

It seems extraordinary to me that we didn't spot these old leviathans until then.  ::) I've no military or aviation knowledge/experience but I'd have thought that they would have been seen and tracked from the moment they entered international airspace if not before?  ???  :-\

don't suppose they were doing but they can carry air launched "cruise" (mach 2!) missiles with 3 megaton warheads and a 300 mile range.

sure they were spotted on take-off and tracked but that doesn't make such a good story for either side.

 
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #5 on: 20 February 2015, 09:03:15 »

The main reason for intercepting them is probably so the Typhoons can "paint" them with ADS-B so the commercial traffic is aware of them.
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #6 on: 20 February 2015, 09:40:46 »

Dosn't military radar pick them up regardless of whether they have their ident beacons on or off?  ???   If they were on a serious bombing mission they'd hardly be broadcasting their location to all and sundrey...  ::)  :D
Hence scrambling the Typhoons inspite of the Bears being in international airspace :y

Missing my point a bit Al, those 'Bears' must have skirted British airspace long before they got to Cornwall.  It just seems late to intercept them.  :-\

I'm sure that the Russians have more modern, faster and capable aircraft that they could use against us if they felt the need and if we can't spot them....  ::)
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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #7 on: 20 February 2015, 09:59:28 »

As an aside, I wonder how many times the Russians have to send fighters up to escort NATO bombers, with their ident beacons off, on "training missions" away from their "areas of interest". I don't suppose for one minute that the BBC gets to report those.

Boys with toys springs to mind.
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #8 on: 20 February 2015, 10:26:47 »

Yes hopefully we're prodding them as much as they seem to be prodding us!  :y
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LC0112G

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #9 on: 20 February 2015, 10:45:58 »

The main reason for intercepting them is probably so the Typhoons can "paint" them with ADS-B so the commercial traffic is aware of them.

During the QRA event on Wednesday, the Typhoons (Callsigns "G3P31" and "G3P32") did not have their Mode S enabled - and I've yet to see one giving full ADS-B even on routine training missions. They were Squawking Mode A/C though so should have been visible to civil ATC. The only publically known position for the Bears was 12 miles south of the Fastnet rock.  The QRA Tanker (RAF Voyager ZZ333, callsign "0QZ68") was initially orbiting in ARA12 which is off the North Cornwall coast, before moving to ARA10W which is between Lands End and Exeter. If anyone saw anything from Cornwall, it would have been this tanker.

Most of the Twitter 'chatter' refers to an event earlier in the day, around 11:30. This was infact a USAF KC135 Tanker tail number 62-3551, callsign "QUID65" from RAF Mildenhall operating in ARA10W refueling a number of RAF Lakenheath based F-15's including "Animal 61" and "Custer 81" flights. 

For years and years Russian bears have entered the north sea and been intercepted by Norwegian, German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish Belgian and UK QRA aircraft, plus USAF fighters based in Iceland. Pilots even used to be able to gain a "10 Bear" patch to wear once they had intercepted the required number of aircraft. After the fall of the Berlin wall, Russian flights decreased dramatically, but they are now on the up again. Incursions into the western approaches and English channel were uncommon, but not unknown.

Basically, as long as the Bears stay outside of Sovereign airspace (the 12nm limit), they are doing nothing 'illegal' and there is nothing we can do about it.  The UK QRA responsibility is simply to escort them and ensure they don't enter the 12 mile limit. Yes they occasionally cross civilian airway routes and it causes disruption to civilian traffic - but the only thing that you can do about that is complain to the Russian ambassador - who will politely remind you that the planes stayed in international airspace and outside of your soverign airspace.

And yes - we and the Americans do the same to the Russians. There are nearly daily flights of UK and USAF RC135 flights along the Russian borders from UK bases.
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tigers_gonads

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #10 on: 20 February 2015, 10:50:22 »

Nothing to see here really  ;)

We used to do the same to them daily / weekly basis.
Ask Shack how many times he just might have strayed a little close to the Soviet airspace around the baltic went for a jolly up north  ;D
And don't even ask what the Nimrod R1's used to get up to  :-X ;D
The yanks still do it to them most days  ;)

These aircraft would have been tracked initially by the Swedish / Norwegian systems.
Probably shepherded out into the North Sea by Norwegian F16's and passed onto our lads somewhere off the Shetlands / Faroe islands north of Scotland. 

Ivan even did a practice attack on Hull / Manchester a few years ago with a Backfire c/w As6 Kitchen ASM.
There Mr Backfire pilot was having a nice steady jolly south down the middle of the North sea when he decides to do a hard 90 deg turn west, drop down to low level and accelerate to "eh" above mach before turning back out to sea before he hit the 12 mile limit  ;)

The ones we need to be scared about are first the tankers going out and disappearing over the north atlantic then the same for the Blackjacks / Backfires  :(
That means they will be refilling there fuel tanks then coming in low down and fast for real  :'(
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tigers_gonads

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #11 on: 20 February 2015, 11:06:47 »

Yes hopefully we're prodding them as much as they seem to be prodding us!  :y


We haven't got the assets / balls anymore  >:(
Nowdays, we just whine to Rupert Murdoch and the rest of the media "cos it ain't fair"   ::)

Putin must be jerking himself off at all the attention the west is giving him  ::)

I would say, get the yanks (because we haven't anything left)  to send a few aircraft over the poles low and fast then pop up off his coastline (just to make a point like) but 1/. The yanks couldn't give a toss about Europe. We was always just a buffer between them and Ivan ................. and 2/.  Obama hasn't got the balls too anyway  >:(
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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #12 on: 20 February 2015, 11:12:29 »

Noticing the slightly PR-iffy statement made by a senior RAF chap - about how the RAF has been decimated, and how they wouldn't stand a chance against the Russian if they did want to invade/destroy us. It got me thinking.

1. It's all hot air; the Ruskies having a poke - or sabre-rattle, it's a bit of show, and nothing different from the 'pinging' that occurred (maybe/probably still does) with US/UK/USSR Nuclear Subs
2. Actually blatantly stating that the RAF is knackered is a massive no-no if that's the case - In terms of making us look like chumps and an easy target. However, it serves two purposes...
      i  Broadcasting to the world a most likely false message of 'under-endowment' works, tactically. Deceiving the Germans into thinking the RAF was weaker than it was/in a totally different place to its true location was a major factor in winning The Second World War.
      ii  Though it's all smoke and mirrors, and the Russians wouldn't actually believe any public message it does cause a major headache for the people who are sensitive to media/public opinion in their control - the MPs. From a RAF perspective they've probably had quite enough of seeing their Harrier, Nimrod MRA4, and god knows what else cut or scrapped. This public announcement gets under the General Populaces skin, and I'd call a bit of a final 'ruddy well stop cutting us, end of!' from the RAF.
3. Personally I can't think of a time when anyone could honestly say the RAF has been 'over strength', it's always under strength. Was in the Battle of Britain, all the way through the Cold War, Afghanistan, you name it. Possible nearest to a 'Golden Era' would be 50s/60s, with Nuclear deterrent, but I don't think anyone would realistically and wilfully go back to Mutually Assured Destruction in exchange for some, admittedly very very cool Vulcans / Victors / Valiants in the sky.
4. Being understrength against a massively outnumbering force has happened before, the British Armed Forces somewhat specialise in this. It's why the Royal Navy frequently bested the Yanks in various War Games, and how the then-ancient Vulcans were able to sweep merrily under the Americans 'impenetrable' defences in Red Flag War Games etc.. Anyone watch 'Zulu' recently? We're jolly good at that sort of War.
5. Political. The Russian people sit merrily, saying 'Look out mighty Bear bombers have penetrated the measly RAF RADAR, we are still a Superpower! Pass me a Vodka' while the British Public grumble at the state of the country (as we always do) and blame the Politicians (as we always do) and say ''ooh, weren't things better in the 40s with Churchill?'' (as we always do. I read a book, and apparently there was a World War going on then, but people seem to forget that bit, and remember Glenn Miller and slimmer women) and the MPs sit at home and think "ugh, a PR coup that makes us look bad, we'll have to promise something we have no intention of honouring to take their minds off it" (as they always do)

My waffle, there! :D Personally I say increase Military budget massively, start designing a new generation of Fighters / bombers or MRCAs and or VTOLs, ships, whatever all in this country, give a generation of people, apprentices, engineers, designers, welders, electricians etc jobs and hope. It helps the economy when people are in work, because they pay this thing called tax. Also we can sell things like trucks, ships, aircraft to other countries, who give us a thing called money in exchange. Give people something to be proud of. Defence has no budget, because when it fails a thing called War breaks out. Defence isn't the same as Warmongering, it's making people feel safer in their homes. Stop buying American pieces of cast-off junk, stop worrying about 'the deficit' which has always been there, and always will be, stop paying Europe millions and billions to dictate to us, invest in British Industry, and all the while the unseen Security Services are infiltrating Terrorist Cells, acting like a virus, slowly corrupting and breaking down the scum out there that think it's fine to warp people's minds in the name of religion and honour, to the point of murder. Then we can sleep safe in our homes, but also with our kids working at BAE Systems or training the next generation of Pilots, not with a Honours Degree in Design, a ton of Student Debt, and on minimum wage in an office, 7 years after graduating, like me  :D :P ;D :D

Also well in agreement with Mr Tiger Gonads, it's all happening up there, but the truth is, we don't see the truth. There's a fair few layers of opaque glass that we're seeing things through. Bit of huff and puff, really  :y
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tigers_gonads

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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #13 on: 20 February 2015, 12:51:22 »

In the days when we had a airforce .....................  :(

Yes, I know its the Daily Mail but some cracking pictures non the less  :y

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2960251/How-RAF-ready-face-Russians-Stunning-images-depths-Cold-War-surface-air-missiles-V-bombers-radar-stations-protecting-Britain.html
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Re: Russian Bears
« Reply #14 on: 20 February 2015, 14:40:25 »

Nice shot of a Bedford S-Type bus in one of the pics. Back when we made things like Bedfords in this country, before someone called Thatcher cancelled the MoD's order for them made them buy Leylands, and then both companies went bust  ::)

Also very proud to see three of the pics are taken in Lincolnshire, RAF Waddington and Scampton (of Dambusters fame) maybe it's natural for me to love the RAF, being a Lincolnshire lad, but please let someone in power realise that there's not such thing as 'painting a wall too well' or 'overengineering' or 'needlessly measuring twice' - sadly that's the mentality of the government - if you measure something twice, and the second time the measurement comes up the same, well, that second check of the ruler was a waste of time - perfect place to make cutbacks! Slightly short-sighted, I fear.

I know a guy who was in the RAF, No 2 squadron, worked on Hunters in the late 40s and early 50s, went over the world, actually touched an atomic bomb in Australia, I expect not many of us can claim to have done that. Lovely guy, I now own all his old kit, which I'll be wearing this summer at re-enactments and remembrance ceremonies :) He adored his time in the RAF, and speaky very warmly of it. As I said in my above post, perhaps that was the real 'Golden Age' if there was one. My god, to be alive then...   :)
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