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[Lizzie_Zoom]

Who else watched a documentary last night entitled Requiem for Detroit, and was left feeling very concerned?

Very thought provoking, as it told the story about black and white relations in 'automobile city' since Henry Ford opened his plant their, with over the decades a black and white split being created. 

With the automobile industry failing to recognize the need to produce modern, European and Japanese, type cars and not large gas guzzlers, whole areas of the city where the car plants once dominated have been abandoned, with the factories, offices, and automobile sponsored centres just left to fall down, with scrap metal merchants crabbing what they can!!  During 2009 alone 29 schools have closed, and numerous large hotels have been also left derelict.

The most chilling sight was of the 'black' area of Detroit which has rows of derilict, burnt-out houses, some of which have been officially demolished by ex-jail birds salvaging what they can, and large vegatable plots being created instead.  Black unemployment is running at about 25-29%, with widespread crime in this area where white families have abondoned their homes due to the problems.

It is now considered that a "great experiment" into what happens to a city when the capitalist system breaks down is taking place. 

Very chilling indeed, and often I had to remind myself we are in the twenty first century!!


PS EDIT:  There were some great pieces of film of Model 'Ts' being built, along with later promotional film of 1950/60 GM products

See it on:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rkm3y

 

[Nickbat]

Who else watched a documentary last night entitled Requiem for Detroit, and was left feeling very concerned?

Very thought provoking, as it told the story about black and white relations in 'automobile city' since Henry Ford opened his plant their, with over the decades a black and white split being created. 

With the automobile industry failing to recognize the need to produce modern, European and Japanese, type cars and not large gas guzzlers, whole areas of the city where the car plants once dominated have been abandoned, with the factories, offices, and automobile sponsored centres just left to fall down, with scrap metal merchants crabbing what they can!!  During 2009 alone 29 schools have closed, and numerous large hotels have been also left derelict.

The most chilling sight was of the 'black' area of Detroit which has rows of derilict, burnt-out houses, some of which have been officially demolished by ex-jail birds salvaging what they can, and large vegatable plots being created instead.  Black unemployment is running at about 25-29%, with widespread crime in this area where white families have abondoned their homes due to the problems.

It is now considered that a "great experiment" into what happens to a city when the capitalist system breaks down is taking place. 

Very chilling indeed, and often I had to remind myself we are in the twenty first century!!


PS EDIT:  There were some great pieces of film of Model 'Ts' being built, along with later promotional film of 1950/60 GM products

See it on:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rkm3y

 

Huh?? What's this "capitalist system break down" you're talking about? 


Perhaps the real story behind Motown's problems is this:

Each American car made with UAW labor carries an extra $2,000 cost just to take care of UAW retirees.

In 2008 alone, the average worker for a Big Three automaker earned $73.20 an hour in total compensation. Workers at Toyota and other foreign makers, by comparison, earned $48 or less. The average U.S. manufacturing worker earned just $31.59 that year.

Saddled with such costs, U.S. auto companies couldn't compete or make a consistent profit. They've been, in effect, nationalized.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=526927

 

[Banjax]

i watched it Liz - absolutely superb documentary: the music and cars echoing Detroits once legendary status.............very sad indeed and a word of warning that the great American Dream can be a nightmare for many 

Ford workers were paid top dollar because, as one resident in her 90's put it - Henry Ford wasn't a good man - but he wasn't a stupid one either" the workers were also consumers buying into the dream remember

paying workers well wasn't the main problem - but it's always churned out as an excuse to point at the unions and go "how dare they force us to pay decent wages!!" another myth - the american car industry faild because they refused to learn the lessons of the oil crisis in the early 70's, as soon as it passed they went on making the same old outdated v8 gas guzzlers and SUVs

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Who else watched a documentary last night entitled Requiem for Detroit, and was left feeling very concerned?

Very thought provoking, as it told the story about black and white relations in 'automobile city' since Henry Ford opened his plant their, with over the decades a black and white split being created. 

With the automobile industry failing to recognize the need to produce modern, European and Japanese, type cars and not large gas guzzlers, whole areas of the city where the car plants once dominated have been abandoned, with the factories, offices, and automobile sponsored centres just left to fall down, with scrap metal merchants crabbing what they can!!  During 2009 alone 29 schools have closed, and numerous large hotels have been also left derelict.

The most chilling sight was of the 'black' area of Detroit which has rows of derilict, burnt-out houses, some of which have been officially demolished by ex-jail birds salvaging what they can, and large vegatable plots being created instead.  Black unemployment is running at about 25-29%, with widespread crime in this area where white families have abondoned their homes due to the problems.

It is now considered that a "great experiment" into what happens to a city when the capitalist system breaks down is taking place. 

Very chilling indeed, and often I had to remind myself we are in the twenty first century!!


PS EDIT:  There were some great pieces of film of Model 'Ts' being built, along with later promotional film of 1950/60 GM products

See it on:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rkm3y

 

Huh?? What's this "capitalist system break down" you're talking about? 


Perhaps the real story behind Motown's problems is this:

Each American car made with UAW labor carries an extra $2,000 cost just to take care of UAW retirees.

In 2008 alone, the average worker for a Big Three automaker earned $73.20 an hour in total compensation. Workers at Toyota and other foreign makers, by comparison, earned $48 or less. The average U.S. manufacturing worker earned just $31.59 that year.

Saddled with such costs, U.S. auto companies couldn't compete or make a consistent profit. They've been, in effect, nationalized.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=526927

 

I mean Nick that the capitalist system  in Detroit was using the work force to produce only large cars on which companies like GM were apparently making $10,000 per unit, but it of course relies on market forces to produce the sales.

In Detroit's case suddenly the world no longer wanted the product of the "one pony town", and could no longer employ it's work force; everything collapsed and dereliction like something from a war took place, with 40% of the land returning to prairie and the USA's largest urban agricultural programme transpiring.  For the 29% unemployed, living amongst the dereliction, with crime rampant, it appears to them and outsiders as though the capitalist system has failed and the American dream is dead!

This is a prime example of when over production of an unwanted product takes place, and the market then collapses, which must be a chilling warning to all of us in the industrialized capitalist west relying on continual mass production process.  The ex-workers of Detroit have now paid the price for doing so and of course are now so much scrap like the factories in which they were previously 'alienated' in.  I am a capitalist, and have practised it all my working life, so cannot deny my complicaty.  But this programme did place a thought in the mind how the capitalist system has failed, with huge areas of a city dying as a result of a free market in the richest, most powerful country in  the world.  The loss of steel making, ship building and mining in the UK was bad enough as the free market did not require those things in the quantities they had in the past.  But Detroit teaches the lesson that if you ignore what the market is telling you, a heavy price will be paid.  This is when the capitalist system breaks down for the humans involved.  Something that a GM executive didn't consider in this documentary, as he only considered how their car production would revive [after billions of American tax payers money has been pumped into GM], but ignoring the fact that Americans now frequently do not drive American cars.

[STMO999]

Who else watched a documentary last night entitled Requiem for Detroit, and was left feeling very concerned?

Very thought provoking, as it told the story about black and white relations in 'automobile city' since Henry Ford opened his plant their, with over the decades a black and white split being created. 

With the automobile industry failing to recognize the need to produce modern, European and Japanese, type cars and not large gas guzzlers, whole areas of the city where the car plants once dominated have been abandoned, with the factories, offices, and automobile sponsored centres just left to fall down, with scrap metal merchants crabbing what they can!!  During 2009 alone 29 schools have closed, and numerous large hotels have been also left derelict.

The most chilling sight was of the 'black' area of Detroit which has rows of derilict, burnt-out houses, some of which have been officially demolished by ex-jail birds salvaging what they can, and large vegatable plots being created instead.  Black unemployment is running at about 25-29%, with widespread crime in this area where white families have abondoned their homes due to the problems.

It is now considered that a "great experiment" into what happens to a city when the capitalist system breaks down is taking place. 

Very chilling indeed, and often I had to remind myself we are in the twenty first century!!


PS EDIT:  There were some great pieces of film of Model 'Ts' being built, along with later promotional film of 1950/60 GM products

See it on:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rkm3y

 

Huh?? What's this "capitalist system break down" you're talking about? 


Perhaps the real story behind Motown's problems is this:

Each American car made with UAW labor carries an extra $2,000 cost just to take care of UAW retirees.

In 2008 alone, the average worker for a Big Three automaker earned $73.20 an hour in total compensation. Workers at Toyota and other foreign makers, by comparison, earned $48 or less. The average U.S. manufacturing worker earned just $31.59 that year.

Saddled with such costs, U.S. auto companies couldn't compete or make a consistent profit. They've been, in effect, nationalized.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=526927

 

I mean Nick that the capitalist system  in Detroit was using the work force to produce only large cars on which companies like GM were apparently making $10,000 per unit, but it of course relies on market forces to produce the sales.

In Detroit's case suddenly the world no longer wanted the product of the "one pony town", and could no longer employ it's work force; everything collapsed and dereliction like something from a war took place, with 40% of the land returning to prairie and the USA's largest urban agricultural programme transpiring.  For the 29% unemployed, living amongst the dereliction, with crime rampant, it appears to them and outsiders as though the capitalist system has failed and the American dream is dead!

This is a prime example of when over production of an unwanted product takes place, and the market then collapses, which must be a chilling warning to all of us in the industrialized capitalist west relying on continual mass production process.  The ex-workers of Detroit have now paid the price for doing so and of course are now so much scrap like the factories in which they were previously 'alienated' in.  I am a capitalist, and have practised it all my working life, so cannot deny my complicaty.  But this programme did place a thought in the mind how the capitalist system has failed, with huge areas of a city dying as a result of a free market in the richest, most powerful country in  the world.  The loss of steel making, ship building and mining in the UK was bad enough as the free market did not require those things in the quantities they had in the past.  But Detroit teaches the lesson that if you ignore what the market is telling you, a heavy price will be paid.  This is when the capitalist system breaks down for the humans involved.  Something that a GM executive didn't consider in this documentary, as he only considered how their car production would revive [after billions of American tax payers money has been pumped into GM], but ignoring the fact that Americans now frequently do not drive American cars.

All of that is still required, but not at the price we want for it.

[Nickbat]

I mean Nick that the capitalist system  in Detroit was using the work force to produce only large cars on which companies like GM were apparently making $10,000 per unit, but it of course relies on market forces to produce the sales.

In Detroit's case suddenly the world no longer wanted the product of the "one pony town", and could no longer employ it's work force; everything collapsed and dereliction like something from a war took place, with 40% of the land returning to prairie and the USA's largest urban agricultural programme transpiring.  For the 29% unemployed, living amongst the dereliction, with crime rampant, it appears to them and outsiders as though the capitalist system has failed and the American dream is dead!

This is a prime example of when over production of an unwanted product takes place, and the market then collapses, which must be a chilling warning to all of us in the industrialized capitalist west relying on continual mass production process.  The ex-workers of Detroit have now paid the price for doing so and of course are now so much scrap like the factories in which they were previously 'alienated' in.  I am a capitalist, and have practised it all my working life, so cannot deny my complicaty.  But this programme did place a thought in the mind how the capitalist system has failed, with huge areas of a city dying as a result of a free market in the richest, most powerful country in  the world.  The loss of steel making, ship building and mining in the UK was bad enough as the free market did not require those things in the quantities they had in the past.  But Detroit teaches the lesson that if you ignore what the market is telling you, a heavy price will be paid.  This is when the capitalist system breaks down for the humans involved.  Something that a GM executive didn't consider in this documentary, as he only considered how their car production would revive [after billions of American tax payers money has been pumped into GM], but ignoring the fact that Americans now frequently do not drive American cars.

Elizabeth, once gain you're being taken in by the BBC, I'm afraid. Just study the figures on this page:

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

You'll see that the most popular vehicle in February 2010 was the Ford F-150 (the base powertrain of which remains a 248hp 4.6-litre V8). Sales UP 23.9% year-on-year. In third place was the Chevy Silverado Pick Up. Notice that there are three Chevy's and two Dodge's in there too. (I rather like the styling of the Chevy Cobalt, which has a base 2.2litre, BTW). http://www.car-wallpapers.ws/chevrolet-cobalt/chevy-Cobalt-108-1680.jpg

I won't go through all the data, but you can see that imported small vehicles, whilst increasing moderately, have not in themselves floored the big motor manufacturers in Detroit. What has hit them, and many plants elsewhere has been the global recession. It is simply BBC twaddle to imply that Detroit was making too many gas guzzlers which no-one wanted. But to say anything else would spoil their narrative, I guess.

Oh, and did they mention the Auto Workers Unions' rates and their effect on Motown profitability?

No, I thought not.     

[STMO999]

Plus, no-one buys the four tops records any more.

[Banjax]

Nick, your link shows a large decrease in sales for the big 3 US carmakers and a corresponding increase from Toyota and Honda from Feb 2000 to Feb 2010, the decline started way before the economic downturn in addition any increase from 2009 would be expected as this was depth of the financial collapse...

[Nickbat]

Nick, your link shows a large decrease in sales for the big 3 US carmakers and a corresponding increase from Toyota and Honda from Feb 2000 to Feb 2010, the decline started way before the economic downturn in addition any increase from 2009 would be expected as this was depth of the financial collapse...

Indeed, Banjax, but remember other factors such as the relative strength of the dollar etc., making imports cheaper. Of course there has been a gradual drift to slightly smaller-engined vehicles, but the fact remains that it is not the case that the US Big Three couldn't or wouldn't build smaller-engined vehicles. They were doing so, but SUVs and pick-ups were still the bread-and-butter business for them.

There is also the question of behavioural economics, which is often overlooked. There was a decrease in patriotic buying and an increase in status in the purchase of foreign brands, often helped by good product placement on TV and in the movies. It was no longer "un-American" to drive round in a Toyota and,in some cases, it actually became de rigeur. I believe many luxury "gas guzzlers" did well during the period (like Jaguar) especially on the West Coast.

My point is that, as ever, the BBC, starts with a narrative and then tries to find the footage to fit it. Motown's demise is similar in causation, IMHO, to the demise of Longbridge. A number of factors combine to produce an irrevocable situation. Those who claim it's all down to one factor alone are usually wrong. 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Nick, your link shows a large decrease in sales for the big 3 US carmakers and a corresponding increase from Toyota and Honda from Feb 2000 to Feb 2010, the decline started way before the economic downturn in addition any increase from 2009 would be expected as this was depth of the financial collapse...

Indeed, Banjax, but remember other factors such as the relative strength of the dollar etc., making imports cheaper. Of course there has been a gradual drift to slightly smaller-engined vehicles, but the fact remains that it is not the case that the US Big Three couldn't or wouldn't build smaller-engined vehicles. They were doing so, but SUVs and pick-ups were still the bread-and-butter business for them.

There is also the question of behavioural economics, which is often overlooked. There was a decrease in patriotic buying and an increase in status in the purchase of foreign brands, often helped by good product placement on TV and in the movies. It was no longer "un-American" to drive round in a Toyota and,in some cases, it actually became de rigeur. I believe many luxury "gas guzzlers" did well during the period (like Jaguar) especially on the West Coast.

My point is that, as ever, the BBC, starts with a narrative and then tries to find the footage to fit it. Motown's demise is similar in causation, IMHO, to the demise of Longbridge. A number of factors combine to produce an irrevocable situation. Those who claim it's all down to one factor alone are usually wrong. 

I am aware of the figures Nick, but I am also aware of the practical, everyday reality of standing on an American sidewalk and observing the now incredible percentage of "foreign" cars, MPVs, pick-ups, etc running on the streets.  So many that it is often difficult to pick out the American vehicles!!

I have  noticed this huge change from my first visit to the US in 1990, to my last visit of the 90s in 1998, to my last visit in December / January 2009 / 2010.

As you know I actually respect the output of the BBC, but as I also know you are completely biased against anything they produce.

But as a student of history I am also able to assimilate information gathered from numerous sources, not just one like the BBC, and also what I have gleaned with my own eyes and ears.  You Nick may want to deny it as much as you like, perhaps because the BBC is the prime messenger in this instance, but the major problem with the American car industry was that it failed to recognize, or want to, that their gas guzzling, out of date designs were not even wanted by their own American public anymore.  As an American friend of mine put it way back in 1998, they where producing cars that he and fellow Americans no longer wanted.  It was a mixture of arrogance, the need to maintain high unit profit and to some extent an inability  to change that brought about Detroit's massive decline and the human cost already outlined.

As I have stated before Nick you are in danger of becoming too blinkered in your arguments because of preconceived ideas and biased against the medium being used to convey the message.  You have some excellent points of view, which I support, but please keep your mind open to other points of view, even if it comes out of the journalistic mouths of the BBC, or the political orifices of  others

[Nickbat]

I am aware of the figures Nick, but I am also aware of the practical, everyday reality of standing on an American sidewalk and observing the now incredible percentage of "foreign" cars, MPVs, pick-ups, etc running on the streets.  So many that it is often difficult to pick out the American vehicles!!

I have  noticed this huge change from my first visit to the US in 1990, to my last visit of the 90s in 1998, to my last visit in December / January 2009 / 2010.

As you know I actually respect the output of the BBC, but as I also know you are completely biased against anything they produce.

But as a student of history I am also able to assimilate information gathered from numerous sources, not just one like the BBC, and also what I have gleaned with my own eyes and ears.  You Nick may want to deny it as much as you like, perhaps because the BBC is the prime messenger in this instance, but the major problem with the American car industry was that it failed to recognize, or want to, that their gas guzzling, out of date designs were not even wanted by their own American public anymore.  As an American friend of mine put it way back in 1998, they where producing cars that he and fellow Americans no longer wanted.  It was a mixture of arrogance, the need to maintain high unit profit and to some extent an inability  to change that brought about Detroit's massive decline and the human cost already outlined.

As I have stated before Nick you are in danger of becoming too blinkered in your arguments because of preconceived ideas and biased against the medium being used to convey the message.  You have some excellent points of view, which I support, but please keep your mind open to other points of view, even if it comes out of the journalistic mouths of the BBC, or the political orifices of  others

Point 1. Try to pick out a British car on a British Street.

Point 2. No, not everything they produce. There must be at least 10% that's not got an editorial bias...I think.

Point 3. That is why the 4.2ltr Ford F150 was the best selling vehicle in February presumably.

Elizabeth, as I said earlier, there are many elements to this story. It is not merely a question of those horrid yank companies only making gas-guzzling cars which no one wanted. There is an element of truth in the fact that the US companies have failed to take on board the better European design specifications, but that's a long way from the telling the whole story.

I don't appreciate being deemed "blinkered". I have mentioned many of the factors which have been in play, such as the anti-competitive UAW agreements, the role of foreign marketing and product placement, the continued domestic demand for large-engined cars, the oscillations in the value of the dollar and the global recession. All you seem to have concentrated on is "gas-guzzling" and "profiteering".        

[Marks DTM Calib]

The current status I supect is actualy helping the US car manufacturers greatly as clearly there cost per hour is exceptionaly high.

They are now in a position where they can address that thanks to mass closures and harsh benefit changes for current and ex employees.

Given that, its clear why they have not produced small cheap cars as they have very little value add and hence they would end up shipping them at a loss!

Note: I have not read any of the articles, thats just my take on it.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I am aware of the figures Nick, but I am also aware of the practical, everyday reality of standing on an American sidewalk and observing the now incredible percentage of "foreign" cars, MPVs, pick-ups, etc running on the streets.  So many that it is often difficult to pick out the American vehicles!!

I have  noticed this huge change from my first visit to the US in 1990, to my last visit of the 90s in 1998, to my last visit in December / January 2009 / 2010.

As you know I actually respect the output of the BBC, but as I also know you are completely biased against anything they produce.

But as a student of history I am also able to assimilate information gathered from numerous sources, not just one like the BBC, and also what I have gleaned with my own eyes and ears.  You Nick may want to deny it as much as you like, perhaps because the BBC is the prime messenger in this instance, but the major problem with the American car industry was that it failed to recognize, or want to, that their gas guzzling, out of date designs were not even wanted by their own American public anymore.  As an American friend of mine put it way back in 1998, they where producing cars that he and fellow Americans no longer wanted.  It was a mixture of arrogance, the need to maintain high unit profit and to some extent an inability  to change that brought about Detroit's massive decline and the human cost already outlined.

As I have stated before Nick you are in danger of becoming too blinkered in your arguments because of preconceived ideas and biased against the medium being used to convey the message.  You have some excellent points of view, which I support, but please keep your mind open to other points of view, even if it comes out of the journalistic mouths of the BBC, or the political orifices of  others

Point 1. Try to pick out a British car on a British Street.

Point 2. No, not everything they produce. There must be at least 10% that's not got an editorial bias...I think.

Point 3. That is why the 4.2ltr Ford F150 was the best selling vehicle in February presumably.

Elizabeth, as I said earlier, there are many elements to this story. It is not merely a question of those horrid yank companies only making gas-guzzling cars which no one wanted. There is an element of truth in the fact that the US companies have failed to take on board the better European design specifications, but that's a long way from the telling the whole story.

I don't appreciate being deemed "blinkered". I have mentioned many of the factors which have been in play, such as the anti-competitive UAW agreements, the role of foreign marketing and product placement, the continued domestic demand for large-engined cars, the oscillations in the value of the dollar and the global recession. All you seem to have concentrated on is "gas-guzzling" and "profiteering".        

Point 1. We were discussing the American car market and Detroit in particular.  But, yes indeed Britain has also seen almost the extermination of its home motor industry, as reflected on our streets.  The reasons why are again various, but it comes down to the likes of BMC / British Leyland producing cars that the world did not want, let alone the British customer who suffered the choice of Princess's, Allegros or Marina's, when Ford were producing more appealing vehicles which were also far more reliable.
The Americans fell into the same trap as the British motor industry, but of course in a much bigger way, of producing cars with the styling, handling, and crucially engines that became completely outdated.

Point 2.  We will have to agree to disagree over the BBC.  I will just mention that that organisation is respected world wide.

Point 3.  Yes you are absolutely right about that top selling model.  However, out of the top ten selling vehicles in February, no less than FIVE are foreign models.  Out of the top 20 no less than EIGHT are foreign models.  This was once unheard of in American automobile obsessed United States in the past. 

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

Those facts have greatly assisted the demise of the car industry in Detroit, which the documentary faithfully portrayed.  Summed up for the American car market, and European one, by the fact that Toyota are the world's biggest vehicle producer.  This comes across again clearly in the Wall Street sales statistics for February 2010.