Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Terbs]

Wasn't going to get involved in this one, but I have to go along with Pete.
I don't do religion of any sort, I don't do church, unless dragged screaming for weddings or funerals, christenings.
However, as Pete states, if you want to, then its your business....But don't try to press it on me.
When I moved into this house 35 years ago, most of the other inhabitants of the road were members of a religious order, if thats the right phrase. Not once, have any of them tried to 'convert me' in any way shape or form, and we all have a great social relationship Thats how it should be.
Live and let live....but it won't happen, as someone always tries to be tops ..........and the brainwashed follow !!!!!!

[Lazydocker]

I thought about starting a thread on this topic a few days ago and decided against it... But now it's started

I make no bones about my religious position, I am agnostic.

I believe in "A divine being" but it's not a (wo)man on a cloud or a multi-armed, elephant like creature. I am a member of an organisation where people of all religions stand side by side and acknowledge a "Divine Being" together (some people will no doubt know what I mean ) Organised Religion isn't for me... I just don't buy it! It's my opinion and I don't force it on anyone else

As for burning the Koran... I find it disgraceful that anyone, let alone a Religious Leader, thinks it is acceptable! I may not agree with that religion but I still respect people who do, as long as they also respect my and other peoples views. The Burning would have just been inciting a lot of violence

Equally, I think it is important to acknowledge the date tomorrow and remember the many people who have lost their lives to terrorism/"terrorism related" wars

Unfortunately, there isn't enough understanding in the world. I agree that the building of a "Muslim Religious Centre and Mosque" on the site of the Twin Towers is equally as disrespectful as Burning the Koran. But not everyone sees it that way

Anyway... I think I have been fair, open and non-racist/insulting in my post. I, obviously, have strong feelings and more to say but it wouldn't come across correctly as the written word so I shall stop here

[Gaffers]

I don't think its fair to tar all Muslims with the same brush and insinuate they are all terrorists.  I'm sure its equally unfair to call all Christians during the Crusades as terrorists.  Not all 1930s Germans were Nazis.

With any part of society, its the extremists that cause the issues, be it Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Prodestents.

Nail on the head

[Dishevelled Den]

Whenever entrenched positions are taken the end result is usually the same.

Violence is the natural bedfellow of xenophobia, intolerance and lack of understanding.


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Vll-t0H6A[/media]

[Elite Pete]

I threw two copies in the skip a few weeks ago. I was clearing the student accommodation I have in Liverpool and they were left behind. My way of thinking was if the person who owned them forgot them, then they couldn't have been that important to him, so in the skip they went.

[Lazydocker]

I threw two copies in the skip a few weeks ago. I was clearing the student accommodation I have in Liverpool and they were left behind. My way of thinking was if the person who owned them forgot them, then they couldn't have been that important to him, so in the skip they went.

And that is a completely fair point of view... I would have done the same To extend that, I would have thrown out copies of the Bible too

[Martin_1962]

I threw two copies in the skip a few weeks ago. I was clearing the student accommodation I have in Liverpool and they were left behind. My way of thinking was if the person who owned them forgot them, then they couldn't have been that important to him, so in the skip they went.

And that is a completely fair point of view... I would have done the same To extend that, I would have thrown out copies of the Bible too

I would have Ebayed them!!!!

[geoffr70]

I don't necessarily support this, but does it not hi-light the fact that many muslims are the ones with double standards, are not tolerant, and that they take hyprocracy to a whole new level.


Would it be reasonable to expect the many followers of Islam who hold the Holy Quran in such high regard not to be offended by this outrageous act but can they really be held to account by the actions and fundamentalist beliefs predicated by a modest number (in global terms) of their fellow ‘believers’?

They don't need the symbolic burning of a Koran to resort to killing innocent people, in the name of their 'religion'. They will do it anyway.

I assume you refer to the more fundamentalist followers of Islam rather than the main stream - should you not be then surely that's a vast generalisation?

They choose to be offended. They are muslims, we are not, so I have no respect for their Mohammed, or their attitude towards women, and their little value for life.

Do you really understand the teachings of the Prophet, Geoff?  And does your attitude towards the followers not display similar intolerance?

Why does Tony Blair encourage us to read the Koran, instead of burning it? Why do the so called leaders not spend more time defending our way of life, culture, values and beliefs (religious or otherwise), instead of rallying to the defence of muslims, who choose to be offended and have a victim mentality, and whose ultimate goal is to subjugate, convert, or kill non muslims?

Again Geoff I consider this to be a vast generalisation - are you suggesting all the followers of Islam are this way inclined.

The musings of a discredited politician such as Mr Blair are irrelevant although I do agree with you that people in this country should be proud of their heritage and stand firm for the right to express their own beliefs without fear of retribution

I think it is about time we say a big group no to their behaviour, whether that's a political, economic, diplomatic no, or military no (I've done my time getting bombed, mortared, rpg'd, stoned, bricked, shot at).

To my mind you are considering this from a rather simplistic perspective Geoff, the practice of politics at national and international level demands clear, considered and above all strategic thinking.  Adopting the 'balls-out' approach would be foolhardy and, we can see what ill-considered military action relevant to this 'problem' has brought us.

The arrogance of it all is unreal. I'm all for people having rights, but IMO it's gone way too far. I'm all for freedom of expression, speech and association. So what if someone is offended by the views or beliefs of someone else! We're all adults living in a big nasty world, you won't agree with everyone all the time, muslims need to take this onboard.

Are you suggesting that those standing up for their beliefs are being arrogant in this case Geoff - surely not?

I would have thought the sign of a mature democracy (insofar as we have one) is the ability of the system to embrace the many differences found in those making up its citizenry and allow them to flourish under the law.

I should add I have nothing against muslims, or any particular group, just the fact that some of them think they are more deserving than others, when they are not.

The fact that you say you don't have anything against the followers of Islam should encourage those followers of the faith presently reading this correspondence to believe that tolerance and understanding is alive and thriving in the UK.

Some big words here. I fink i mite av 2 get mi dikshunary to no what they meen

[Dishevelled Den]

Some big words here. I fink i mite av 2 get mi dikshunary to no what they meen

Aah, thank you Geoff for the considered response - very disappointing indeed

How should have I phrased my legitimate questions to your piece?  Is there anything wrong with my using this language?

Would you like to make a serious point?

[Banjax]

Where's Banjax? He could mock all those who believe in fairy stories. And I could join him.

 

as if I'd ever castigate anyone's beliefs...........Fairytale or otherwise 


Now, if you'll excuse me, the Big Giant Head is calling 

[geoffr70]

Some big words here. I fink i mite av 2 get mi dikshunary to no what they meen

Aah, thank you Geoff for the considered response - very disappointing indeed

How should have I phrased my legitimate questions to your piece?  Is there anything wrong with my using this language?

Would you like to make a serious point?

It seems that whenever someone makes a legitimate point, or exercises their freedom of speech to assert their beliefs, such as my mainstream, moderate and non-prejudiced beliefs, numerous people rally round to tell them how wrong and nasty they are! They pick holes in their statements, twisting words, trying to belittle them and show them up. This I think partly proves the point I was making in my original post, thanks!

You ask me :

"Are you suggesting all the followers of Islam are this way inclined?"

Which proves my point again! For the sake of convenience and server space posts are kept short(ish). You really think I tar everyone with the same brush, or are you just trying to show me up, which again, would prove my point! There is good and bad everywhere!

Do you understand the alleged teachings of the alleged prophet they call Mohammed? Or do you interpret them the way you see fit? There is a big difference.

Sorry Zulu77, I don't know what a balls out approach is.

A few years ago I was confronted by a 'Stop the War' protestor! He asked me to sign their petition to 'stop the war' and get the troops out! After telling him the war stopped along time ago, I said I think there should be more troops out there. He then told me, and I quote:

"You should get back there and ******* die!"

I consider myself reasonably resilient, this was still annoying however, after seeing good people burnt to a crisp, blown to bits, and shot in the face, and having a few close encounters of the last kind myself!!! Lol If I was predisposed to violence, I might've taught him a lesson, he needed it!

This I think is an example of how people, who don't know what they are talking about, commenting on the issue. I'm not just talking about serviceman being killed an injured here. I'm talking about the normal people who want to live a normal life, but are subjected to a stunted way of life because of others.

And if you think we live in a democracy, I think you are sadly mistaken!

[Unicornrider]

And before slagging off the Koran, I would suggest tackling the more mainstream versions of it - I had to read it at school back in the mid 1980s.

Was you given a choice...i know the Jerhova witness at are scholl was shunned by both teachers and children alike becuase he dare say no.
If we all had an understanding of different faiths, and were more tolerant, it would leave less religion for the extremists to hide behind

Sadly they would just twist it even futher (religion that is) and still use it too there own means.

[Dishevelled Den]

Some big words here. I fink i mite av 2 get mi dikshunary to no what they meen

Aah, thank you Geoff for the considered response - very disappointing indeed

How should have I phrased my legitimate questions to your piece?  Is there anything wrong with my using this language?

Would you like to make a serious point?

It seems that whenever someone makes a legitimate point, or exercises their freedom of speech to assert their beliefs, such as my mainstream, moderate and non-prejudiced beliefs, numerous people rally round to tell them how wrong and nasty they are! They pick holes in their statements, twisting words, trying to belittle them and show them up. This I think partly proves the point I was making in my original post, thanks!

You ask me :

"Are you suggesting all the followers of Islam are this way inclined?"

Which proves my point again! For the sake of convenience and server space posts are kept short(ish). You really think I tar everyone with the same brush, or are you just trying to show me up, which again, would prove my point! There is good and bad everywhere!

Do you understand the alleged teachings of the alleged prophet they call Mohammed? Or do you interpret them the way you see fit? There is a big difference.

Sorry Zulu77, I don't know what a balls out approach is.

A few years ago I was confronted by a 'Stop the War' protestor! He asked me to sign their petition to 'stop the war' and get the troops out! After telling him the war stopped along time ago, I said I think there should be more troops out there. He then told me, and I quote:

"You should get back there and ******* die!"

I consider myself reasonably resilient, this was still annoying however, after seeing good people burnt to a crisp, blown to bits, and shot in the face, and having a few close encounters of the last kind myself!!! Lol If I was predisposed to violence, I might've taught him a lesson, he needed it!

This I think is an example of how people, who don't know what they are talking about, commenting on the issue. I'm not just talking about serviceman being killed an injured here. I'm talking about the normal people who want to live a normal life, but are subjected to a stunted way of life because of others.

And if you think we live in a democracy, I think you are sadly mistaken!

Thank you for making some serious points Geoff.

It seems that whenever someone makes a legitimate point, or exercises their freedom of speech to assert their beliefs, such as my mainstream, moderate and non-prejudiced beliefs, numerous people rally round to tell them how wrong and nasty they are! They pick holes in their statements, twisting words, trying to belittle them and show them up. This I think partly proves the point I was making in my original post, thanks!

 Were you not inviting comment by starting this thread (in the way you constructed your opening remarks) or did not expect people to examine your argument and make some comments of their own?

How can asking questions to clarify a point be construed as picking holes and belittling - do you feel that your assertions should go unchallenged. :-?

"Are you suggesting all the followers of Islam are this way inclined?

This was put to you in response to the following statement;

instead of rallying to the defence of muslims, who choose to be offended and have a victim mentality, and whose ultimate goal is to subjugate, convert, or kill non muslims?

Should I have not asked you to clarify that point?

Do you understand the alleged teachings of the alleged prophet they call Mohammed? Or do you interpret them the way you see fit? There is a big difference.

As a matter of fact I don't Geoff but I'm not prepared to condemn something because of my ignorance of it.  Your use of the word alleged in the above seems to suggest that you have a particular mindset.

I don't know what a balls out approach is.

Full on, care less of consequences, all-out.

I consider myself reasonably resilient, this was still annoying however, after seeing good people burnt to a crisp, blown to bits, and shot in the face, and having a few close encounters of the last kind myself

You may be interested to know Geoff that during the course of my service to the state I've been shot at, bombed, stabbed (twice) targeted for assassination on quite a number of occasions, spat upon and called a 'filthy British blank' who should 'blank off' back to where I belonged and so on.

It would have been a missed opportunity had I not tried to understand why people decided to act this way towards me (and my colleagues). 

Through understanding and adopting an open-minded approach many situations can be dealt in a way that benefits most of the protagonists.

And if you think we live in a democracy, I think you are sadly mistaken!

I would submit that we are Geoff.  It’s far from perfect, but I would suggest that each and every one of us would know about it if we were not.

I would finally make the point that I'm not talking down to you or anyone else here for that matter.  It's not in my nature to do this.

This is how I correspond on a day to day basis and for me to try and deconstruct how I phrase my writings, would be an insult to the membership here.

In spite of the many points I asked you to clarify, you may be surprised to learn that I agree with some points you make more that you would imagine.

[Steve 1564]

RIGHT THEN.... The term Pikey   

(I still think the reason that muslims take there shoes off when going into the mosque is cos they have a great big bouncy castle in there !!)

So what about the flag burning that was so popular just after 9/11 ?
Quote "I don't think its fair to tar all Muslims with the same brush and insinuate they are all terrorists"

But.... All terrorists ARE muslims, but boy do they complain when they get searched at the airport... and be totaly honest would you be a little bit uneasy sitting next to one on a plane ?

[PhilRich]

RIGHT THEN.... The term Pikey   

(I still think the reason that muslims take there shoes off when going into the mosque is cos they have a great big bouncy castle in there !!)

So what about the flag burning that was so popular just after 9/11 ?

Where would we be without the Indomitable British Humour? :-/