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[Dishevelled Den]

Surely the answer is clear.. one single unified elected global government, one global economy and one global currency.

Should happen right about the time we abolish hunger, disease, racism, bigotry .. and politicians stop being as bent as a nine bob note.

This may be the aim in the esoteric world of the professional administrator Arron.

The thing that prevents that ever happening is the inherent individualism within humanity together with the tendency for some who simply must profit at the cost of others.

As you rightly say, we shouldn't hold our collective breath waiting for it.

[aaronjb]

But I want the utopian future science fiction has always promised me *stamps feet*

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

But I want the utopian future science fiction has always promised me *stamps feet*

Sorry ..but only dystopia is available for the next few years......it's the cuts ...you see.....

[Nickbat]

OK, Banjax, but humour aside, answer me this one question:

Would democracy in the UK be better served if our government was able to take decisions on behalf of its electorate without recourse to the EU?

Simple question, requiring a simple answer.
 

funnily enough I don't like the fact that we don't vote for who sits on the euro commision, and therefore can't remove them from power - which is fundamental to democracy surely? 

Then surely, the EU is fundamentally undemocratic?

[aaronjb]

But I want the utopian future science fiction has always promised me *stamps feet*

Sorry ..but only dystopia is available for the next few years......it's the cuts ...you see.....

I'd settle for dystopia too, as long as I can have the last of the V8 Interceptors.

[Dishevelled Den]

But I want the utopian future science fiction has always promised me *stamps feet*

stamps feet

In that case A, I'm glad you don't have access to a 'ray' gun - or a phaser - or a zat nicotel.

[Banjax]

OK, Banjax, but humour aside, answer me this one question:

Would democracy in the UK be better served if our government was able to take decisions on behalf of its electorate without recourse to the EU?

Simple question, requiring a simple answer.
 

funnily enough I don't like the fact that we don't vote for who sits on the euro commision, and therefore can't remove them from power - which is fundamental to democracy surely? 

Then surely, the EU is fundamentally undemocratic?

I've posted this quote before, but always bears repeating:

"If one meets a powerful person...ask them five questions: "What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?" If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."
Tony Benn in a speech to the House of commons, 2001
He's usually right. 

[Nickbat]

BJ, much as I do not see eye-to-eye with Tony Benn's political views, he is nevertheless one of our finest ever parliamentarians. He is a staunch believer in democracy, as I am.

Thus I do not not quite understand how, when I complain bitterly about Westminster's loss of sovereignty to the EU, I am accused of being a "Little Englander".

There is NO democracy within the EU decision-making process and I cannot, for the life of me, understand why any criticism of that issue is regarded as nationalistic. Surely anyone, whether on the political right or left, must see how our democracy is being (or, rather, has been) eroded. It is in no one's interest, other than the Commission's unelected bureaucrats. However, since they have the power, they will only seek to enhance it.      

   

[2woody]

OK, Banjax, but humour aside, answer me this one question:

Would democracy in the UK be better served if our government was able to take decisions on behalf of its electorate without recourse to the EU?

Simple question, requiring a simple answer.
 

deinitely and without adoubt yes

[Banjax]

BJ, much as I do not see eye-to-eye with Tony Benn's political views, he is nevertheless one of our finest ever parliamentarians. He is a staunch believer in democracy, as I am.

Thus I do not not quite understand how, when I complain bitterly about Westminster's loss of sovereignty to the EU, I am accused of being a "Little Englander".

There is NO democracy within the EU decision-making process and I cannot, for the life of me, understand why any criticism of that issue is regarded as nationalistic. Surely anyone, whether on the political right or left, must see how our democracy is being (or, rather, has been) eroded. It is in no one's interest, other than the Commission's unelected bureaucrats. However, since they have the power, they will only seek to enhance it.      

   

i disagree with you on much Nickbat, but I agree constitutionally, and legally that the EU is undemocratic - and I can't be a little Englander

[jereboam]

You all seem to be confusing the European Commission with the European Parliament.

As far as I am aware, the EC (an oversized, overstaffed, inefficient and corrupt administrative organ) does not actually have the power to make laws.  That is the prerogative of the European Parliament, which is a democratically elected legislative authority.

We have the opportunity to elect MEPs at regular intervals, but we don't actually take a lot of interest.  The turnout in the UK for EU elections is very low.  The results are a joke, as we tend to elect people who are either second rate party hacks, failed British Parliamentary candidates or clowns like Nigel Farage who's sole interest in being in the European Parliament seems to be to insult as many foreigners as possible while working for the downfall of the institution to which he has been elected.

Before you complain about lack of democracy, can you name your European Parliamentary constituency?  Or your MEP?  Did you even vote?

[Dishevelled Den]

We (UK) elected 72 members to the European Parliament in the 2009 elections.

Total elected membership of the parliament is about 750 or so.

As far as I can see the EU Commission (unelected) civil servants formulates policy through the Council of Ministers which is then presented to the parliament where it is either approved or amended to suit the majority vote.

The parliament seems to be a consultative body with no legislative forming powers of its own.

The fact that legislation is created by an unelected group (Commission) and then passed via the Council of Ministers to a consultative body (Parliament) for implementation or amendment is, to me, inherently undemocratic.

There appears to be no way to influence this decision making process even should all 72 UK representatives decline to be part of it which means, in my view at least, that even by having no representation at all in that parliament we are still bound by legislation coming from the EU body as a whole. (As we effectively gave EU law and political process precedence over our own decision making process (when we signed up in the first place) and are bound by the block vote system that ensures that a majority vote by Ministers can override the objections of any one)

I'm open to correction on my analysis here but I must say - irrespective of some worthwhile legislation being spawned by ‘Europe’ (if shambolically applied and enforced) that the whole deal seems to reek of the dictatorial which, to my mind, falls far from the tree of democracy.

[Cliffo B]

My dads army one the war,and also my grandads although he is in a war grave in France.People can slag off and show their contempt of proper values because of them.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

My dads army one the war,and also my grandads although he is in a war grave in France.People can slag off and show their contempt of proper values because of them.

So ask yourself how and why the situation they became involved in existed.

I am sure you are talking about the Great War and WW2, both of which were a product of Empire building, rampant nationalism, and overall the European countries refusing to bond collectively together in the interests of their peoples. 


The European conflicts had gone on for centuries, and at the end of the Great War it was hoped that Europe could come together and avoid such conflicts again; it being the War to end all Wars.  But no, due to a very complex system of individual nationalist politics at Versailles in 1919, the hopes of many were dashed, and helped to create the monster that was German National Socialism to again rack Europe, and the World, with War on a massive scale.

It was the dream of the likes of Winston Church that Europe could come together as a united body, settling differences by jaw, jaw, and not war, war.  Thank goodness, coupled with the nuclear threat for all, we now have the EU with a European Government, which so far has diffused any possible slide back into nationalism, self interest, and war on a massive scale.

I lost an uncle and grandfather, along with ending up with a damaged second grandfather and father, due to those super destructive events of war, and all I now request is that we have peace at all costs, even at a price of individual nationalism. 

As Thomas Hobbes rightly summed up:

"Hereby it is manifest , that during the time men live without common Power to keep them all in awe, they are in a condition which is called Warre; and such a warre, as is of every man, against every man.  For WARRE , consisteth not in Battell onely, or the act of fighting; but in a tract of time, wherein the Will to contend by Battell is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of Time, is to be considered in the nature of Warre; as it is in the nature of Weather. For as the nature of Foul weather , lyeth not in a showre or two of rain; but in an an inclination thereto of many dayes together: So the nature of War, consisteth not in actual fighting: but in the known disposition thereto, during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary.  All other time is PEACE."

Hobbes, T. Leviathan pp. 185, 186 Penguin (1651)

Overall a warning from history you could say;  May we all work together in the interests of mankind.

[maria]

My dads army one the war,and also my grandads although he is in a war grave in France.People can slag off and show their contempt of proper values because of them.

So ask yourself how and why the situation they became involved in existed.

I am sure you are talking about the Great War and WW2, both of which were a product of Empire building, rampant nationalism, and overall the European countries refusing to bond collectively together in the interests of their peoples. 


The European conflicts had gone on for centuries, and at the end of the Great War it was hoped that Europe could come together and avoid such conflicts again; it being the War to end all Wars.  But no, due to a very complex system of individual nationalist politics at Versailles in 1919, the hopes of many were dashed, and helped to create the monster that was German National Socialism to again rack Europe, and the World, with War on a massive scale.

It was the dream of the likes of Winston Church that Europe could come together as a united body, settling differences by jaw, jaw, and not war, war.  Thank goodness, coupled with the nuclear threat for all, we now have the EU with a European Government, which so far has diffused any possible slide back into nationalism, self interest, and war on a massive scale.

I lost an uncle and grandfather, along with ending up with a damaged second grandfather and father, due to those super destructive events of war, and all I now request is that we have peace at all costs, even at a price of individual nationalism. 

As Thomas Hobbes rightly summed up:

"Hereby it is manifest , that during the time men live without common Power to keep them all in awe, they are in a condition which is called Warre; and such a warre, as is of every man, against every man.  For WARRE , consisteth not in Battell onely, or the act of fighting; but in a tract of time, wherein the Will to contend by Battell is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of Time, is to be considered in the nature of Warre; as it is in the nature of Weather. For as the nature of Foul weather , lyeth not in a showre or two of rain; but in an an inclination thereto of many dayes together: So the nature of War, consisteth not in actual fighting: but in the known disposition thereto, during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary.  All other time is PEACE."

Hobbes, T. Leviathan pp. 185, 186 Penguin (1651)

Overall a warning from history you could say;  May we all work together in the interests of mankind.

Well said Lizzie