The strange thing is the men of today seem to lack the spine of those of yesterday! I said:
"Stay within the EU and we can change it."
Nick replied: "Absolute pipe dream. We cannot change it." What!!!
Did the men at Agincourt say that to Henry V in 1415, or the Barons forcing King John to sign the Magna Carta in 1215? Did either Admiral Nelson, or Vice Admiral Collingwood say that as they both approached the lines of the combined French and Spanish fleets on the morning of 21st Oct. 1805? Did the leaders of the Chartists in the 1840s say they couldn't change it? Did Churchill say he couldn't change Asquith's mind in 1908 in introducing social reform at the expense of building two more Dreadnoughts? Did the RAF Fighter pilots of No.11 group say they couldn't do it during 1940? Did Tony Blair give up on the Northern Ireland Peace Process in 1989?
No to all, as English / British men who were strong, and did not use the word "impossible", were determined to change what was!
So together we can change the EU to be what we want. Or have we forgotten how to do such things, and instead run into corners and meekly whisper "NO" to everything?!
If so we have forgotten how to be British!!

A bizarre argument. You use glowing examples of military bravery to argue that we can change the EU, but then go on to say war must be avoided at all costs. Huh?
We have a situation in which we have no power to challenge the EU successfully (and certainly not the will power with the current bunch in Westminster). Then you have the brazen cheek to suggest that I am not a real man if I dare to suggest that we are up the legislative creek!
Incredible.

I'm off for a lie-down.

Yes, I was expecting that Nick!

Those were different days with different ways, when gunboat and hang em from the yard arm diplomacy ruled, before there were international organizations, like the UN and EU, that could stop one country acting in a war like fashion against another. That I think helps to prove my point. We need the EU, otherwise we go back to those days of warre warre, just as Hobbes described! But in the context of the time those men, although committed to war, stood up and achieved the "impossible". Also I described achievements by politicians such as Churchill and Blair who secured advancement of policy as a peaceful group, ignoring political boundaries and jealousies (Churchill especially). They achieved against the odds, changing circumstances to their advantage, never saying it was all "a pipe dream"!!
Stay as a little group and you will not achieve such goals, but together with other human beings, even of different political persuasions, massive advancements against all odds can be made.
I am sorry you took offence at the weak men jibe, but really, to listen to the arguments on here against the EU really reminds me of tiny disenchanted groups in the playground, not men who are ready to meet political challenges head on and creating a system that meets the majority of ALL our needs.
Bluntly, stop whining and winging about it, get off all your backsides, and do something about it as men (and women) did in the past

if you want to change the situation!!