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[Dishevelled Den]

Yes, I was expecting that Nick!

Those were different days with different ways, when gunboat and hang em from the yard arm diplomacy ruled, before there were international organizations, like the UN and EU, that could stop one country acting in a war like fashion against another.  That I think helps to prove my point.  We need the EU, otherwise we go back to those days of warre warre, just as Hobbes described! But in the context of the time those men, although committed to war, stood up and achieved the "impossible".  Also I described achievements by politicians such as Churchill and Blair who secured advancement of policy as a peaceful group, ignoring political boundaries and jealousies (Churchill especially).  They achieved against the odds, changing circumstances to their advantage, never saying it was all "a pipe dream"!! 

Stay as a little group and you will not achieve such goals, but together with other human beings, even of different political persuasions, massive advancements against all odds can be made.

I am sorry you took offence at the weak men jibe, but really, to listen to the arguments on here against the EU really reminds me of tiny disenchanted groups in the playground, not men who are ready to meet political challenges head on and creating a system that meets the majority of ALL our needs. 

Bluntly, stop whining and winging about it, get off all your backsides, and do something about it as men (and women) did in the past if you want to change the situation!!

Insofar as the 'Europe' as it's presently constituted and the 'Europe' that it perhaps should be - how can we go about changing it?

I don't think that there's any machinery open to the people of the various EU states that allows an expression of dissatisfaction to really amount to much.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Yes, I was expecting that Nick!

Those were different days with different ways, when gunboat and hang em from the yard arm diplomacy ruled, before there were international organizations, like the UN and EU, that could stop one country acting in a war like fashion against another.  That I think helps to prove my point.  We need the EU, otherwise we go back to those days of warre warre, just as Hobbes described! But in the context of the time those men, although committed to war, stood up and achieved the "impossible".  Also I described achievements by politicians such as Churchill and Blair who secured advancement of policy as a peaceful group, ignoring political boundaries and jealousies (Churchill especially).  They achieved against the odds, changing circumstances to their advantage, never saying it was all "a pipe dream"!! 

Stay as a little group and you will not achieve such goals, but together with other human beings, even of different political persuasions, massive advancements against all odds can be made.

I am sorry you took offence at the weak men jibe, but really, to listen to the arguments on here against the EU really reminds me of tiny disenchanted groups in the playground, not men who are ready to meet political challenges head on and creating a system that meets the majority of ALL our needs. 

Bluntly, stop whining and winging about it, get off all your backsides, and do something about it as men (and women) did in the past if you want to change the situation!!

Insofar as the 'Europe' as it's presently constituted and the 'Europe' that it perhaps should be - how can we go about changing it?

I don't think that there's any machinery open to the people of the various EU states that allows an expression of dissatisfaction to really amount to much.

Get involved, become an party activist, run for election, write letters to the press, to European officials, become a pain in some body's side, jaw, jaw, jaw, and jaw again, whilst getting on TV, Radio, start your own Internet site, place placards on the side of your car, stand in the High Street obtaining signatures to a petition, stand on a soapbox at Speakers Corner, fly banners from aeroplanes, tall buildings and cranes; that is how you change things!!

You cannot bring change by winging and spouting negativity on a car Forum!!  That is the blunt truth of it!

[Nickbat]

Yes, I was expecting that Nick!

Those were different days with different ways, when gunboat and hang em from the yard arm diplomacy ruled, before there were international organizations, like the UN and EU, that could stop one country acting in a war like fashion against another.  That I think helps to prove my point.  We need the EU, otherwise we go back to those days of warre warre, just as Hobbes described! But in the context of the time those men, although committed to war, stood up and achieved the "impossible".  Also I described achievements by politicians such as Churchill and Blair who secured advancement of policy as a peaceful group, ignoring political boundaries and jealousies (Churchill especially).  They achieved against the odds, changing circumstances to their advantage, never saying it was all "a pipe dream"!! 

Stay as a little group and you will not achieve such goals, but together with other human beings, even of different political persuasions, massive advancements against all odds can be made.

I am sorry you took offence at the weak men jibe, but really, to listen to the arguments on here against the EU really reminds me of tiny disenchanted groups in the playground, not men who are ready to meet political challenges head on and creating a system that meets the majority of ALL our needs. 

Bluntly, stop whining and winging about it, get off all your backsides, and do something about it as men (and women) did in the past if you want to change the situation!!

I did. I voted UKIP at the election, but unless rest of the population stops watching X Factor and starts learning about the loss of democracy, there's not much else I can do. There are many, many people who share my views but while the political classes (LIbDem,Con,Lab) are all on the gravy train and have us in a stranglehold there's literally nothing we can do. At the moment, that is. 

[Nickbat]

Get involved, become an party activist, run for election, write letters to the press, to European officials, become a pain in some body's side, jaw, jaw, jaw, and jaw again, whilst getting on TV, Radio, start your own Internet site, place placards on the side of your car, stand in the High Street obtaining signatures to a petition, stand on a soapbox at Speakers Corner, fly banners from aeroplanes, tall buildings and cranes; that is how you change things!!

You cannot bring change by winging and spouting negativity on a car Forum!!  That is the blunt truth of it!

So, expressing a view that we should leave the EU is "negativity" and we're not supposed to utter such things on a car forum. I see.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Yes, I was expecting that Nick!

Those were different days with different ways, when gunboat and hang em from the yard arm diplomacy ruled, before there were international organizations, like the UN and EU, that could stop one country acting in a war like fashion against another.  That I think helps to prove my point.  We need the EU, otherwise we go back to those days of warre warre, just as Hobbes described! But in the context of the time those men, although committed to war, stood up and achieved the "impossible".  Also I described achievements by politicians such as Churchill and Blair who secured advancement of policy as a peaceful group, ignoring political boundaries and jealousies (Churchill especially).  They achieved against the odds, changing circumstances to their advantage, never saying it was all "a pipe dream"!! 

Stay as a little group and you will not achieve such goals, but together with other human beings, even of different political persuasions, massive advancements against all odds can be made.

I am sorry you took offence at the weak men jibe, but really, to listen to the arguments on here against the EU really reminds me of tiny disenchanted groups in the playground, not men who are ready to meet political challenges head on and creating a system that meets the majority of ALL our needs. 

Bluntly, stop whining and winging about it, get off all your backsides, and do something about it as men (and women) did in the past if you want to change the situation!!

I did. I voted UKIP at the election, but unless rest of the population stops watching X Factor and starts learning about the loss of democracy, there's not much else I can do. There are many, many people who share my views but while the political classes (LIbDem,Con,Lab) are all on the gravy train and have us in a stranglehold there's literally nothing we can do. At the moment, that is. 

No doubt there are Nick, and full democratic power to you all!

There is no getting away from the fact that you will all have to form a group who can first lobby your MPs, then create a manifesto of what you want to transpire.  You will need a leader who can run for election, and then you can develop your cause from there!  You have to break the mould of the Westminster Club if you really believe in your objectives, and go onto Europe with your own representation .

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Get involved, become an party activist, run for election, write letters to the press, to European officials, become a pain in some body's side, jaw, jaw, jaw, and jaw again, whilst getting on TV, Radio, start your own Internet site, place placards on the side of your car, stand in the High Street obtaining signatures to a petition, stand on a soapbox at Speakers Corner, fly banners from aeroplanes, tall buildings and cranes; that is how you change things!!

You cannot bring change by winging and spouting negativity on a car Forum!!  That is the blunt truth of it!

So, expressing a view that we should leave the EU is "negativity" and we're not supposed to utter such things on a car forum. I see.

Of course you can Nick!  But where is it going to get you all?  For most on this Forum Politics is a big switch off, so as I have stated to you before, you have to take your arguments outside of this arena

[MaxV6]

gentlepeeps and ladies....  this is all hugely irrelevant....


none of the people who you think, THINK they're in charge, are in fact in control of diddly squat


everyone knows full well it;s my wife.

runs the entire world from the safety of her management office...   and my sofa.... 

 

or at least that's what i'm told....   8-)

[Lizzie_Zoom]

gentlepeeps and ladies....  this is all hugely irrelevant....


none of the people who you think, THINK they're in charge, are in fact in control of diddly squat


everyone knows full well it;s my wife.

runs the entire world from the safety of her management office...   and my sofa.... 

 

or at least that's what i'm told....   8-)

 

A women like me!  Like it!

[MaxV6]

ahhh  she's not QUITE a woman like you Liz....     she can't drive an omega....  too short to se over the bonnet and reach the pedals at the same time....


so.... there was some sense in the madness of my marriage 

(21 years next june)

[Lizzie_Zoom]

ahhh  she's not QUITE a woman like you Liz....     she can't drive an omega....  too short to se over the bonnet and reach the pedals at the same time....


so.... there was some sense in the madness of my marriage 

(21 years next june)

Sounds like a great match if you ask me!! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

[Dishevelled Den]

Yes, I was expecting that Nick!

Those were different days with different ways, when gunboat and hang em from the yard arm diplomacy ruled, before there were international organizations, like the UN and EU, that could stop one country acting in a war like fashion against another.  That I think helps to prove my point.  We need the EU, otherwise we go back to those days of warre warre, just as Hobbes described! But in the context of the time those men, although committed to war, stood up and achieved the "impossible".  Also I described achievements by politicians such as Churchill and Blair who secured advancement of policy as a peaceful group, ignoring political boundaries and jealousies (Churchill especially).  They achieved against the odds, changing circumstances to their advantage, never saying it was all "a pipe dream"!! 

Stay as a little group and you will not achieve such goals, but together with other human beings, even of different political persuasions, massive advancements against all odds can be made.

I am sorry you took offence at the weak men jibe, but really, to listen to the arguments on here against the EU really reminds me of tiny disenchanted groups in the playground, not men who are ready to meet political challenges head on and creating a system that meets the majority of ALL our needs. 

Bluntly, stop whining and winging about it, get off all your backsides, and do something about it as men (and women) did in the past if you want to change the situation!!

Insofar as the 'Europe' as it's presently constituted and the 'Europe' that it perhaps should be - how can we go about changing it?

I don't think that there's any machinery open to the people of the various EU states that allows an expression of dissatisfaction to really amount to much.

Get involved, become an party activist, run for election, write letters to the press, to European officials, become a pain in some body's side, jaw, jaw, jaw, and jaw again, whilst getting on TV, Radio, start your own Internet site, place placards on the side of your car, stand in the High Street obtaining signatures to a petition, stand on a soapbox at Speakers Corner, fly banners from aeroplanes, tall buildings and cranes; that is how you change things!!

You cannot bring change by winging and spouting negativity on a car Forum!!  That is the blunt truth of it!

I’m glad to have this forum to discuss these matters as I don’t get much of an opportunity to do so otherwise.

I hope that I'm not whingeing Lizzie, but could taking the measures you suggest not lead to the very unrest you feel that this 'Europe' as we know it has prevented.

The people of the Republic of Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty when they were asked to vote in a referendum on the matter.

Brussels did not accept this and forced another referendum on the people of that country.  After fierce lobbying and deal-making the second vote succeeded and the treaty was ratified.

This suggests to me that Brussels will never take no for an answer and that whatever people try to do to change the present arrangements it will end in failure.

The EU is too big, too intertwined in the political fabric of its member nations and too determined on survival to be thwarted by any dissenting movement.

The emotive words you use are stirring, and yes, perhaps if people did get off their arses and moved in unison things would change but we all of us, in the end, are individuals so that likelihood seems to be remote. So, I would contend that, in the present climate, practicality dictates that the status quo will remain.

What I will say is that regarding our membership of the Union, we should either shit or get off the pot as the present arrangement is not working well and is far removed from the original concept of friendly sovereign nations trading with each other for the benefit of all.

It all comes down to whether we consider ourselves to be British or European (in terms of political nationhood) because as I see it, it can't be both.

[MaxV6]

it's had it;'s moments  (5 kids for example)






still madly in love with the megalomaniac old bat....


my car choices over the years....  4 Senators (A and B)  1 Sintra, 2 Omega Elites..  1 mV6,    have precluded her being able to use ANY of them....   yet i've always made a point to insure her.....   

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Yes, I was expecting that Nick!

Those were different days with different ways, when gunboat and hang em from the yard arm diplomacy ruled, before there were international organizations, like the UN and EU, that could stop one country acting in a war like fashion against another.  That I think helps to prove my point.  We need the EU, otherwise we go back to those days of warre warre, just as Hobbes described! But in the context of the time those men, although committed to war, stood up and achieved the "impossible".  Also I described achievements by politicians such as Churchill and Blair who secured advancement of policy as a peaceful group, ignoring political boundaries and jealousies (Churchill especially).  They achieved against the odds, changing circumstances to their advantage, never saying it was all "a pipe dream"!! 

Stay as a little group and you will not achieve such goals, but together with other human beings, even of different political persuasions, massive advancements against all odds can be made.

I am sorry you took offence at the weak men jibe, but really, to listen to the arguments on here against the EU really reminds me of tiny disenchanted groups in the playground, not men who are ready to meet political challenges head on and creating a system that meets the majority of ALL our needs. 

Bluntly, stop whining and winging about it, get off all your backsides, and do something about it as men (and women) did in the past if you want to change the situation!!

Insofar as the 'Europe' as it's presently constituted and the 'Europe' that it perhaps should be - how can we go about changing it?

I don't think that there's any machinery open to the people of the various EU states that allows an expression of dissatisfaction to really amount to much.

Get involved, become an party activist, run for election, write letters to the press, to European officials, become a pain in some body's side, jaw, jaw, jaw, and jaw again, whilst getting on TV, Radio, start your own Internet site, place placards on the side of your car, stand in the High Street obtaining signatures to a petition, stand on a soapbox at Speakers Corner, fly banners from aeroplanes, tall buildings and cranes; that is how you change things!!

You cannot bring change by winging and spouting negativity on a car Forum!!  That is the blunt truth of it!

I’m glad to have this forum to discuss these matters as I don’t get much of an opportunity to do so otherwise.

I hope that I'm not whingeing Lizzie, but could taking the measures you suggest not lead to the very unrest you feel that this 'Europe' as we know it has prevented.

The people of the Republic of Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty when they were asked to vote in a referendum on the matter.

Brussels did not accept this and forced another referendum on the people of that country.  After fierce lobbying and deal-making the second vote succeeded and the treaty was ratified.

This suggests to me that Brussels will never take no for an answer and that whatever people try to do to change the present arrangements it will end in failure.

The EU is too big, too intertwined in the political fabric of its member nations and too determined on survival to be thwarted by any dissenting movement.

The emotive words you use are stirring, and yes, perhaps if people did get off their arses and moved in unison things would change but we all of us, in the end, are individuals so that likelihood seems to be remote. So, I would contend that, in the present climate, practicality dictates that the status quo will remain.

What I will say is that regarding our membership of the Union, we should either shit or get off the pot as the present arrangement is not working well and is far removed from the original concept of friendly sovereign nations trading with each other for the benefit of all.

It all comes down to whether we consider ourselves to be British or European (in terms of political nationhood) because as I see it, it can't be both.

Then we should get to its centre Zulu by democratic process, and how that develops is down to all citizens.  If we cannot motivate the politically disinterested then the progress will be hard and slow, but achieve that motiviation and achieve we will.

Dare I mention that those who take the initiative will achieve great things..............ok up to that point?...............like Hitler starting small with National Socialism in 1923 to change Germany, stripping it of its democracy by 1934, and gaining an absolute stranglehold on its people and cause horrific destruction.

 Not so good eh?!!  That is because an evil man was determined to gain absolute power over a great country, and it is not an example of a determined peaceful political movement changing what is. But it proves yet again in history that change will take place with will, and out of little acorns greatness can be achieved against the odds.

I am sure the majority of us will always want change; peaceful change, and this can only be achieved when mankind projects itself over the perceived "impossible".   As I mentioned before, in history men have ignored that word and secured the nation we have now.  We will cease to to be as a nation if we retreat to a corner and whimper it is "all impossible to change".  Be determined and strong, placing ourselves at the centre of Europe, and we will achieve our common goals. 

The right men and women is what is required now to build on the success of the EU to date, and rid it of its weakenesses. That will take time.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

...................and before I am accused again of using an example of conflict (Hitler) when against the warre of man, and the need to overcome political "impossibility" peacefully, I will just mention two words of a name................

[size=20]

Nelson Mandela

[/color][/size]

No explanation required I think!!

[unlucky alf]

We will cease to to be as a nation if we retreat to a corner and whimper it is "all impossible to change".  Be determined and strong, placing ourselves at the centre of Europe, and we will achieve our common goals.

The right men and women is what is required now to build on the success of the EU to date, and rid it of its weakenesses. That will take time.

That will never happen lizzie, the EU is nothing more than a piece of the jigsaw to create the global governance they keep going on about, so we would never be players in the EU but slaves to the NWO (new world order), people are waking up to it but very slowly, im surprised as to how many people have never heard of the Bilderbergers who are very much instrumental in the planning of a NWO, to think for one minute that the EU is for our benefit or ever will be is laughable.