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[STMO123]

Just been looking at Elite Petes thread omega v BMW and it brought to mind a question I've always pondered on.
The 0-60 times given for autos are usually about 1sec-1.5sec slower than manuals.
On TG I once watched how these times were achieved. On the manual the driver(professional, of couse)
had to 'snatch' the gears very quickly to get the fastest time. On an auto theres much less of an art to it, foot down and away you go.

Now, taking into account that, even though most of us fancy ourselves,we are not pro drivers, in the past I've found that I can usually get away more quickly in an auto.

My 2.3 saab LP turbo was a beast. Not much, including BMW diesels, got away quicker than me.

[Martin_1962]

AUtos can be slower off the line due to high gearing.

[royston1945]

Yes,in everyday driving an auto will usually leave for dead a similarly powered manual without trying,IMHO,unless the manual driver powershifts with no regard for the life of the clutch and gearbox.
  I cannot fathom the British obsession with changing gear countless times on every journey,what a waste of effort when a modern auto will always be in the right gear. A guy was boasting the other day that his new diesel eurobox had a six speed gearbox! He was upset when it was pointed out that the six speeds were needed to keep the horribly peaky engine on the boil.Car makers are clever(or at least their marketing departments are) making the hinderence of an extra gearchange every timeyou want to reach cruising speed into a selling point!
When asked,most people who detest autos have never driven one for any length of time,citing 'lack of  engine braking' or feeling'less in control' as the reason they would never buy an auto.Speaking personally, I wouldn't buy a manual for everyday motoring,I hate wasting time and energy on doing unneccesary chores.  
   BTW does anybody else use their left foot for braking when driving an auto ?I dont mean when just parking or low speed manouvering,but exclusively.I picked up this wierd habit in the sixties whilst running a mk2 Ford Zodiac auto with a tendency to stall when braking,hence the need to brake with the left foot whilst keeping the engine running with the right foot! It was suprisingly easy to learn how to modulate my braking with my left foot,even in a emergency situation.Yet when a drive a manual I automatically(no pun intended) brake with my right foot.
  Still ,if it's good enough for F1 drivers its good enough for me,although,apparantly I would fail a drivng test nowadays for doing what comes naturally-left foot braking!

[Elite Pete]

Left foot braking hurts too much. The first and last time I did it I nearly ended up through the windscreen and the wife gave me a slap

[TheBoy]

I drive an auto most of the time. I prefer auto. However, there is no doubt that a manual gives more control mid corner and better acceleration (even with similar ratios). Economy should be better in manual as well. The torque converter in an auto has a lot to answer for...

[Martin_1962]

Along country roads or towing autos are much easier. Manuals are more fun when pushing on but a big V6 makes an auto fun

[tunnie]

being young i still like the manual, however if my millage increases a lot in a few years i will want an auto...

Manual is still bags more fun though  

[royston1945]

Most modern autos are of the tiptronic type which can be driven like a manual on the twisty bits when you're in the mood and you still get to relax in crawling trafic.However,steer clear of the 'Selespeed' system as fitted to Alfas and Fiats,it's very jerky and unreliable. My girlfriend's Alfa 156 at 60k is on it's third gearbox ! No wonder they are worthless.....the cars I mean,not girlfriends.

[Auto Addict]

No contest - Auto every time [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[TheOutcast]

I definitely prefer an auto, it's much easier, and, I think, more economical, around town.
With a big V6 engine, I don't notice the loss of power.
Manuals are probably more economical on motorways.
Twice a week I drive a manual gearbox mini-bus around the town. It reminds me how much easier it is with an auto-box.
There's no way I'd go back to a manual. [smiley=happy.gif]

[Kev]

No contest - Auto every time [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Here here, i agree.  

[Paul M]

Well it's quite clear to see the difference between the drivers, and the "get from a-b with as little effort as possible"  

"An auto will leave for dead a similar manual".... LOL what rubbish, the autos almost always have higher gearing which kills acceleration (IMO the manual in the Omega is over-geared for an engine that needs 4500+ RPM to get going, the autos with only 4 ratios are woefully over-geared), and that's before you take into account the torque convertor burning up a fair chunk of your horsepower as heat.

Oh and manufacturer's 0-60 times for manual cars tend to be conservative in my experience, it's quite easy to beat them without being overly harsh on the clutch and gearbox, provided you can drive properly! One of the advantages of a clutch is that you can get the revs up before launching so the engine doesn't bog down... OK do it every time you take off and you'll wear out the clutch eventually, but it'll knock a fair bit off the quoted 0-60 time. The BMW SMG gearbox even has a "launch control" button that does this for you via hydraulic actuators!

This though is the funniest part: "a modern auto will always be in the right gear"... hmm, I guess you've never done any advanced driving (that is, road driving not race type stuff). The "right gear" takes into account a lot of factors, some of them being road conditions and what's coming up ahead. Now I can't say for sure but I'd suspect even "modern" autos don't yet have sensors monitoring the road conditions, and cameras reading the road ahead? Now if you're a "point and squirt" type driver who just wants to get to the destination, then it probably is in what you'd consider to be the right gear. But I'm my experience, other than cruising on the motorway they're often in the wrong gear... I'd hazard a bet that if you sat an advanced driving test in a manual car, but selected the gears as an auto does then you'd be pretty certain to fail. Pro-active driving is as much about reading what's ahead and selecting the appropriate gear, rather than just naively basing it on engine revs and load.

In summary: yes, driving auto is easier; yes it takes less skill to do a 0-60.... but the reality is many people (myself included) consider that the better performance, better fuel economy, more driver involvement (and thus enjoyment) of a manual gearbox far outway any of the disavantages. If using your left hand to move a small stick now and then is such a chore then that's your prerogative, but personally I don't see it as much different to turning the wheel, or pressing the brakes - it's just as much part of the driving, and I quite enjoy it.

BTW Tiptronic is utter crap, absolutely nothing like a manual to drive... typically reaction is quite slow, it's still got the dreaded torque convertor, and best of all the computer is smarter than you so it can over-ride your gear selections - all humans are inherently stupid aren't they? If you really can't be bothered moving a stick, but want to feel like you're controlling the car, then I'd suggest BMW's SMG-II or Audi's DSG or similar. Proper "manual" gearboxes with a proper clutch, but all hydraulically activated so it's shifted for you. Shifts can be done really quickly, and it retains the proper control of a clutch, unlike the elastic band effect of a torque convertor - not to mention the power-sapping heating of transmission fluid.

But in the end, maybe you should consider a chauffeur to drive you around... can you really be bothered turning that stupid big circle every few minutes just to get the car to go around corners? Pah!

 8-)

[Paul M]

I quote from the RoSPA website, from an article about driving more safely with regard to slush-o-matics, this is not about getting from A-B as quickly as possible, in which case I expect the benefits of manual are pretty obvious.

The torque converter, as the name implies, converts the torque or turning effort of the engine power through the gear ratios to the drive wheels. Basically, the torque converter consists mainly of an impeller, which is driven by the engine and a turbine that drives the gearbox. Each is bowl shaped and contains a number of partitions or vanes. They are mounted face-to-face in the oil filled gearbox but there is no physical contact between them. Put simply, when you press the accelerator you increase the speed of the impeller, which forces the gearbox oil through the vanes of the turbine, making it rotate. An increase or decrease in torque has the same effect as changing to a higher or lower gear.

This almost fluid connection between the engine, through the gearbox, to the drive wheels means that leaving the gear lever in ‘D’ when negotiating a hazard is not the same as leaving a manual gearbox in top gear.

...

Many drivers of automatics leave the gear selector in D and never consider other options built into the gearbox even though there are times when this might be clearly desirable to optimise flexibility and control of the vehicle. In many cases this is due to ignorance of the potential benefits of using the full range of the gearbox.

...

Manually selecting a set of ratios may be in response a particular hazard where there is a need for more control through use of the accelerator. This will prevent the gear changing up automatically, which may result in the vehicle ‘running on’ and increasing speed when this is not required. Manually locking a ratio also provides the flexibility to control speed during and after an overtaking manoeuvre, as an alternative to a ‘kick-down’ or when approaching an area of uncertainty. However, when the specific or general need for flexibility has passed the ‘D’ (Drive) option should be reconsidered.

Candidates may also choose to retain a lower ratio, for instance within a built-up area, to improve control through the accelerator. However, the upper ratio selected should be appropriate to the circumstances. Selecting 3 in a 5 speed automatic box may be suitable for urban driving but 4 may be the better and more flexible choice for winding rural roads. Leaving the gearbox in ‘D’ may be appropriate for open bends where the flexibility of a lower ratio is not considered necessary.

Candidates should remember that, as with a manual gearbox, selecting a specific ratio on an automatic box should take place when the correct speed for the hazard has been attained. As with a manual gearbox secondary braking should be avoided.

Some police forces advocate a more direct manual use of the automatic box, particularly in ‘pursuit’ or ‘response’ situations. However, for the purposes of the RoSPA test, where that degree of flexibility and maximum performance is neither required nor necessary, the manual over-ride facility must not be used excessively.

...

Single bends can normally be negotiated in D. For a series of bends consider locking the vehicle into a suitable ratio prior to the first bend, and on exit from that bend, when the accelerator is eased to set the vehicle up for the next bend, the vehicle will not automatically change up and the driver will have the benefit of engine braking which will give better control.

Of course, all this depends on the driver's willingness to exert the "unnecessary time and effort" to move that big stick between the front seats now and again in the pursuit of driving more safely

[tunnie]

No contest - Auto every time [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Here here, i agree.  

Bunch of lazy old gits....MANUAL!!!  

[royston1945]

Maybe I gave the wrong impression about my driving style.Just to clarify, my motoring experience includes competing in countless road and special stage rallies,short circuit racing ,hillclimbs,and autotests quite successfully in the 60's and 70's,before a wife and kids stopped play .I have also driven over 2million road miles on three different continents during the course of my career without major incident.I can change gear without thinking like any experienced driver-but why should I?
No,I was talking about  real world motoring,and in the the real world an average driver in an auto will outdrag an average driver in a manual-power and weight being more or less equal.
 As for needing a manual to have control over a car,todays vehicles have huge reserves of roadholding and braking ability that needing to change down to 'steady the ship'as it were is an archaic old wives tale.
Manuals have their uses,all my competition cars were manual as were all the commercial vehicles I  owned for business use.In fact my first truck was ex WW2 with a crash gearbox which took some mastering!
BTW,I passed my Advanced Driving test in 1981.