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[Paul M]

Before I become fully competent with Omegas, when I was at the "have a go, experimental" stage, I fitted a V6 cambelt kit following the Haynes manual, which said it could be done without (but would need checking afterwards).

It's only now, I know why it ran like a bag of nails!

Knowing what I know now, I would always use the correct kit.

I recon I must have done near on 30+ cambelts on the Omega for other people, and 28 of them probably weren't bang on!

Was that before or after you had done them?

[justme]

My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).

 So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?

Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)  

No disrespect intended, but that is exactly the attitude I was trying to warn about.  Some mechanics think that doing the GM V6 can be done without a locking/timing kit, same as most other engines.  It can't.  The locking/timing kit is essential.

None taken TB I did say "experianced"  I would not recommend anyone without experiance to take on such a job with or without a kit, having a kit does not automatically give you the ability. And I would add, this site provides more than enough info on the subject, not to mention the dvd which incidentally I also have together with the sp kit not to mention a few others. Perhaps a little bit more care by some, in reading what was actually written and the context in which it was written may be called for.

"My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt"

Which does rather highlight what I was trying to put across in the first place.
I wonder what the cost would be to buy timming kits for all the vehichles requiring them. It just does not happen in the real world. They dont but the book of lies either.

[VXL V6]

Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)  

Yep, all the values are available from sources such as Autodata but I have also seen plenty of errors in them as well, even GM make mistakes and have to send out tech notes that supercede their original guidance.

[justme]

Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)  

Yep, all the values are available from sources such as Autodata but I have also seen plenty of errors in them as well, even GM make mistakes and have to send out tech notes that supercede their original guidance.

So what price the book of lies.

[Entwood]

AFAIK most independant small garages rely quite heavily on autodata/TIS type software for their information, and some of it is quite accurate.

Autodata for the Omega-B CLEARLY states that special tools are required, and proceeds to list them. Although I have not heard of "kent moore" tools, the descriptions of each item matches the tool sets I have seen. The itemised work sheet describes the use of these tools at the appropriate time.

I would therefore expect any work done on my car to follow such instructions ......  

I cannot see how even the most experienced "eye" can line up 4 items and check tension accurately without any "measuring" device

just my 2.7 p's (inc VAT)  

[CaptainZok]

AFAIK most independant small garages rely quite heavily on autodata/TIS type software for their information, and some of it is quite accurate.

Autodata for the Omega-B CLEARLY states that special tools are required, and proceeds to list them. Although I have not heard of "kent moore" tools, the descriptions of each item matches the tool sets I have seen. The itemised work sheet describes the use of these tools at the appropriate time.

I would therefore expect any work done on my car to follow such instructions ......  

I cannot see how even the most experienced "eye" can line up 4 items and check tension accurately without any "measuring" device

just my 2.7 p's (inc VAT)  

IIRC Kent Moore are the makers of the kit the dealers are supplied by Vaux

[sassanach]

there are four measuring devices one above each cam and the tension is preset

[justme]

AFAIK most independant small garages rely quite heavily on autodata/TIS type software for their information, and some of it is quite accurate.

Autodata for the Omega-B CLEARLY states that special tools are required, and proceeds to list them. Although I have not heard of "kent moore" tools, the descriptions of each item matches the tool sets I have seen. The itemised work sheet describes the use of these tools at the appropriate time.
I would therefore expect any work done on my car to follow such instructions ......  
I cannot see how even the most experienced "eye" can line up 4 items and check tension accurately without any "measuring" device

just my 2.7 p's (inc VAT)  

IIRC Kent Moore are the makers of the kit the dealers are supplied by Vaux

It was the kit used by vauxhall, TB was it Gethin (N Wales/Liverpool) on the other side who worked on engine warranty returns at Vauxhall, it is the kit he uses and charges £120 inc parts to do. And was it not McB who arranged with his local motor factors to supply genuine kits @ £65 just before you started this site.


my final words on this subject and to set the cat amongest the pigeons.

James was it not the laser kit you used to use :question, no dought it is listed. There is no micro adjustment on the meega. When you come across the vernier adjustment youll know you have arrived.

I know quite a few EXPERIANCED people who I would trust implicitly to change a belt without a kit. That is far from everyone.

When I see the meega engine I feel like leaning over and just lifting it out.


Many would have seen another way to change the belt : To cut the existing in half : put on the new and then cut away the rest of the old job done. Who is to say that is wrong if it works

for as many problems that exist there will be as many solutions. Thats what makes us all diffrent.

[JamesV6CDX]

Many would have seen another way to change the belt : To cut the existing in half : put on the new and then cut away the rest of the old job done.

This used to work on the older 8v engines, but cannot work on the 16v / 24v V6, due to the lips on the pulleys.

I know quite a few EXPERIANCED people who I would trust implicitly to change a belt without a kit

That's your choice, but, no amount of experience, and no good an "eye" will get the crank dead on TDC, hence you will never be sure the cams are correctly aligned.

Getting the marks on the pulleys in line with the cutouts on the covers on the V6 is NOT accurate. No amount of experience will be any match for precision-engineered tools when timing up the V6.

There is no micro adjustment on the meega.

Must disagree. Once the belt is installed, the banks of cams can be rotated through extremely small fractions, (using the adjustable idlers), to get the valve timing spot on. This is the micro adjustment.

James was it not the laser kit you used to use

I bought one, but once I realised how awful it was, I never ever used it to time up a car. I ended up returning it, and buying a SP kit, which is much better.

Who is to say that is wrong if it works

Just becaue it works, doesn't mean it's done properly, or was a good job. When I checked the timing on my own V6, the tensioner was set way off, and the cams were a few degrees out. This "worked".. in the sense that it could be driven etc.. but it was still definately wrong!

I know quite a few EXPERIANCED people who I would trust implicitly to change a belt without a kit.

I also know some extremely experienced people, including a handful of members here - but I still wouldn't let them fit my cambelt without a kit!

for as many problems that exist there will be as many solutions. Thats what makes us all diffrent.  

Agreed - although my personal solution would be to buy a timing kit

We will have to agree to disagree, because I 100% maintain that you will not get one of these engines right without a timing kit.

[VXL V6]

Many would have seen another way to change the belt : To cut the existing in half : put on the new and then cut away the rest of the old job done. Who is to say that is wrong if it works

for as many problems that exist there will be as many solutions. Thats what makes us all diffrent.

Seen that idea mentioned before for other engines and I can see the simplicity of it, the only thing that would concern me doing it that way would be that the main failure point is the tensioners and they aren't getting replaced.

Also the tensioners need to be adjusted to suit the belt ie. reusing a belt or fitting a new one as I understand it, obviously this could be easily overlooked fitting a belt in this way.

[sassanach]

kin ell this is gonna run and run and im out of popcorn

[ians]

..reminds me of the pic somewhere of someone who had cable tied the cams together rather than locking them... each to his own I suppose

[Marks DTM Calib]

You need the kit for this engine....anybody who does it without is NOT doing a thorough job and can not guarantee the timing or tension......and you dont want either of these wrong. Plus, the belt suppliers wont support any warranty claim unless the job is doen using the correct tools.

And yes, the cams are infinately adjustable (all be it in pairs) on this power plant.

And its also pretty suprising how many I see where the timing is wrong and where the cam sprockets have been covered in dabs of white paint.

[sassanach]

is it the case that vauxhall did away with the right hand  adjustable roller on the 2.6/3.2 engines ??

[Marks DTM Calib]

is it the case that vauxhall did away with the right hand  adjustable roller on the 2.6/3.2 engines ??

On the late ones yes, interestingly I have found that this adjuster on the later oil pump engines (approx post 98) pretty much always points at 12 Oclock when setup on the adjustable ones so it may be that the designers had noted this to......it does still have the adjustable idler for getting the two banks aligned which is going to be key to get good load sharing between both banks.