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[Entwood]

Front tyres are starting to show signs of abnormal wear on the edges, outers being worse than the inners.

Wishbones were replaced 15000 miles back with Lemforder followed by a WIM setup.

Driving back last night had to go through some fairly heavy roadworks and noticed, for the first time, a "knocking" from the front when going over the worst bits ... possibly Drop links ?

Questions :

1. Would the drop links cause abnormal tyre wear if in need of replacing ?

2. Can all the bushes/joints in the suspension/steering be properly checked without the use of a lift ?? (Thinking of asking one of the experts to check the whole lot at Newent .. then replacing whatever is needed before a revisit to WIM)

3. If 2 is not a goer .. how best to have the front end checked ?? - keeping the cost down prior to replacing whatever is needed ..


I don't fancy paying out £100 just for a diagnostic, but don't mind paying that for the setup after ..

Any opinions gratefuly accepted

[vauxsull]

I'll be looking in to what reply's you get on this as I have steering issues and put it down to track rod ends as the outer ones where goosed so I changed inner and outer on both sides but vibration is still there so I must have another fault somewhere..

[Bent valve]

I wouldnt think worn drop links would affect tyre wear, but excessive wear on not only inner but mainly outer would suggest a touch too much negative camber coupled with low tyre pressure?

[Entwood]

Tyre pressures are checked/changed on a very regular basis !! As per the handbook  39 (front) 45 (rear) when towing, 30 (front) 32 (rear) solo.

Camber was set by WIM to -1°18' (left) and -0°59' (right) in Jun09 15000 miles ago, so unless something has moved .....

With luck someone "who knows" can give the front a good looking at at Newent, I'll change anything required and then have another WIM setup. If there's nowt declared wrong I'll just go for a WIM visit..

Seems like a plan .. if it works ... just need to bribe someone with enough beer to check it all for me ..   any offers  ??

[shane1000]

over or under inflated tyre pressures would cause this or incorrect adjustment on track rods. you say that you've had it all done, but i'm wondering if they cut a few corners when setting the toe in / out ? etc.     also what kind of tyres are on? some have soft rubber compound which wears quickly.

[Entwood]

over or under inflated tyre pressures would cause this or incorrect adjustment on track rods. you say that you've had it all done, but i'm wondering if they cut a few corners when setting the toe in / out ? etc.     also what kind of tyres are on? some have soft rubber compound which wears quickly.

WIM don't cut corners .....  Toe left 0°05' right 0°04' ... although its always possible that a pothole or two has changed the toe.

Tyres are Falken FK452 which wre put on at the time of the WIM check, 15000 miles, and have shown no adverse wear until very recently.... last 6 weeks/3000 miles

[Broomies Mate]

over or under inflated tyre pressures would cause this or incorrect adjustment on track rods. you say that you've had it all done, but i'm wondering if they cut a few corners when setting the toe in / out ? etc.     also what kind of tyres are on? some have soft rubber compound which wears quickly.

WIM doesn't cut corners!

Even the softest compound tyre should wear evenly if the suspension/tracking setup is correct.

To Entwood:  15k is a fair old whack.  Every pothole, every speed-bump, every 'spirited' corner takes its toll on suspension components.  As you've stated, you can now hear knocking.  Could be Wishbones, could be DropLinks, could be Track Control Rods....... and so on.

You are doing things in the right order.... gets the basics checked, then and only then go and have the 4wheel geometry set.  No point in having geometry done on a car which will need suspension work in a few thousand miles 

[feeutfo]

Front right camber is way wrong.

Drop links will not affect tyre ware.

There is a wip in test zone that may help.

Would towing add enough weight to the rear to lift the front wheels ride hight? You just back from hols with picky wagon? I know you have self levelling but heavy van nose weight would still lift the front I guess? If so camber average would explain the tyre ware (IF the nose weight is heavy enough, you would know more than me) maybe measure the hight to wheel arch with and without pikey palace? Did the steering feel light while towing?

[Entwood]

Front right camber is way wrong.

Drop links will not affect tyre ware.

There is a wip in test zone that may help.

Would towing add enough weight to the rear to lift the front wheels ride hight? You just back from hols with picky wagon? I know you have self levelling but heavy van nose weight would still lift the front I guess? If so camber average would explain the tyre ware (IF the nose weight is heavy enough, you would know more than me) maybe measure the hight to wheel arch with and without pikey palace? Did the steering feel light while towing?
 

Thanks for the answers ... I'm a tad confused though .. front camber is only 19' different left/right  and right is only 11' off "perfect" .. yet you say its miles out ??

'van was pretty heavy but steering felt normal, unit sat nice and level. tyre wear had started before the France trip .. but obviously best part of 2000 miles has made a difference.

I read through your write up, but not good enough to work it all out.. so hoping "someone who knows" can look at the setup at Newent and advise. I'm able to do the "replacing what I'm told to" part .. then get it back to WIM for a setup.

[feeutfo]

Front right camber is way wrong.

Drop links will not affect tyre ware.

There is a wip in test zone that may help.

Would towing add enough weight to the rear to lift the front wheels ride hight? You just back from hols with picky wagon? I know you have self levelling but heavy van nose weight would still lift the front I guess? If so camber average would explain the tyre ware (IF the nose weight is heavy enough, you would know more than me) maybe measure the hight to wheel arch with and without pikey palace? Did the steering feel light while towing?
 

Thanks for the answers ... I'm a tad confused though .. front camber is only 19' different left/right  and right is only 11' off "perfect" .. yet you say its miles out ??

'van was pretty heavy but steering felt normal, unit sat nice and level. tyre wear had started before the France trip .. but obviously best part of 2000 miles has made a difference.

I read through your write up, but not good enough to work it all out.. so hoping "someone who knows" can look at the setup at Newent and advise. I'm able to do the "replacing what I'm told to" part .. then get it back to WIM for a setup.

-59 from -1.10 is 51mins difference? Error is +- 40mins, which for wim is a lot. IMO. Certainly should not be less than -1.00 degrees.

But is the wear on that side? And the same side as the knock perhaps?

Might be worth jacking and wheel rocking at 12 and 6 o'clock for wheel baring and 9 and 3 o'clock for track rod play, wiggle the wishbones while it's in the air, they should be firmly held by the bush.

[feeutfo]

Front right camber is way wrong.

Drop links will not affect tyre ware.

There is a wip in test zone that may help.

Would towing add enough weight to the rear to lift the front wheels ride hight? You just back from hols with picky wagon? I know you have self levelling but heavy van nose weight would still lift the front I guess? If so camber average would explain the tyre ware (IF the nose weight is heavy enough, you would know more than me) maybe measure the hight to wheel arch with and without pikey palace? Did the steering feel light while towing?
 

Thanks for the answers ... I'm a tad confused though .. front camber is only 19' different left/right  and right is only 11' off "perfect" .. yet you say its miles out ??

'van was pretty heavy but steering felt normal, unit sat nice and level. tyre wear had started before the France trip .. but obviously best part of 2000 miles has made a difference.

I read through your write up, but not good enough to work it all out.. so hoping "someone who knows" can look at the setup at Newent and advise. I'm able to do the "replacing what I'm told to" part .. then get it back to WIM for a setup.

-59 from -1.10 is 51mins difference? Error is +- 40mins, which for wim is a lot. IMO. Certainly should not be less than -1.00 degrees.

But is the wear on that side? And the same side as the knock perhaps?

Might be worth jacking and wheel rocking at 12 and 6 o'clock for wheel baring and 9 and 3 o'clock for track rod play, wiggle the wishbones while it's in the air, they should be firmly held by the bush.

Hold up, it's 60 mins to a degree ? 

[Kevin Wood]

-59 from -1.10 is 51mins difference? Error is +- 40mins, which for wim is a lot. IMO. Certainly should not be less than -1.00 degrees.

But is the wear on that side? And the same side as the knock perhaps?

Might be worth jacking and wheel rocking at 12 and 6 o'clock for wheel baring and 9 and 3 o'clock for track rod play, wiggle the wishbones while it's in the air, they should be firmly held by the bush.

There are 60 minutes in a degree.

Kevin

[Entwood]

Front right camber is way wrong.

Drop links will not affect tyre ware.

There is a wip in test zone that may help.

Would towing add enough weight to the rear to lift the front wheels ride hight? You just back from hols with picky wagon? I know you have self levelling but heavy van nose weight would still lift the front I guess? If so camber average would explain the tyre ware (IF the nose weight is heavy enough, you would know more than me) maybe measure the hight to wheel arch with and without pikey palace? Did the steering feel light while towing?
 

Thanks for the answers ... I'm a tad confused though .. front camber is only 19' different left/right  and right is only 11' off "perfect" .. yet you say its miles out ??

'van was pretty heavy but steering felt normal, unit sat nice and level. tyre wear had started before the France trip .. but obviously best part of 2000 miles has made a difference.

I read through your write up, but not good enough to work it all out.. so hoping "someone who knows" can look at the setup at Newent and advise. I'm able to do the "replacing what I'm told to" part .. then get it back to WIM for a setup.

-59 from -1.10 is 51mins difference? Error is +- 40mins, which for wim is a lot. IMO. Certainly should not be less than -1.00 degrees.

But is the wear on that side? And the same side as the knock perhaps?

Might be worth jacking and wheel rocking at 12 and 6 o'clock for wheel baring and 9 and 3 o'clock for track rod play, wiggle the wishbones while it's in the air, they should be firmly held by the bush.

Sorry .. can't agree with you here ..

-1°18' (left) and -0°59' (right) is 0°19' difference ... well within WIM's tolerance of  +/- 0°45'

[feeutfo]

Yes, as above, recalibrated my brain now, it takes a while 

So yes not a great deal wrong settings wise. 

Towing or a failure somewhere? Didn't this happen before on yours? Outside edge wear I mean? Sorry, long day.

[feeutfo]

Front tyres are starting to show signs of abnormal wear on the edges, outers being worse than the inners.

Wishbones were replaced 15000 miles back with Lemforder followed by a WIM setup.

Driving back last night had to go through some fairly heavy roadworks and noticed, for the first time, a "knocking" from the front when going over the worst bits ... possibly Drop links ?

Questions :

1. Would the drop links cause abnormal tyre wear if in need of replacing ?

2. Can all the bushes/joints in the suspension/steering be properly checked without the use of a lift ?? (Thinking of asking one of the experts to check the whole lot at Newent .. then replacing whatever is needed before a revisit to WIM)

3. If 2 is not a goer .. how best to have the front end checked ?? - keeping the cost down prior to replacing whatever is needed ..


I don't fancy paying out £100 just for a diagnostic, but don't mind paying that for the setup after ..

Any opinions gratefuly accepted

ok, had some sleep and a re read, tyres fitted at wim at the same time as set up and wishbons 15 k ago? if i understand that correctly, and i'm still bloody knackered, 15,000miles is a lot for falkens, so may be they are nearing the end of thier life? how much tread left in the middle?

Basiclky as the wheel moves up and down with the suspension travel the strut has to move inboard and outboard with the radious of the wishbone. This means tha camber will varie as the suspension rises and falls! more camber as you corner and thewheel compresses isall designed in, -1.10 is wims setting that gives the best average of this over all movement, if you see what i mean? for proof if this, note the visual camber angle when the front wheel is off the floor, the top of the wheel leans out considerably and is why the wheels “pinch” (contact patch between the two wheels is too close together) when dropped off the jack, and is why you need to drive gently up and down to let the wheels settle before tightening the wish bone bolts when fitting new wishbones on the drive, wims ramp has a floating/sliding pad they park the front wheels on for this.

This means the the front tyrees WILL wear on the edges in a more rounded profile as they eat up the miles and is why tires become less stable after roughly two thirds ofthier life , the rears tend to wear flater due to the trailing arm geometry giving far less variation in camber with suspension travel, although some is designed in.

so, basickly, the wear your now seeing is the result of the camber settings over the 15k period with your driving, as i understand it without seeing it, although there could be someworn parts as well, and as said previously, the camber could do with being a little more aggressive according to your driving (some people wang round roundabouts, some less so meaning not everyones tyres will wear the same with the same settings due to driving style) ie TB will need a fraction more camber than Tunnie if you look at thier tyre wear. Its all a balance.

happy to poke around at newent, i'm sure the collective gathering will find any faults, but more importantly wim should see the tire wear and will advise a more aggresive base camber setting i would think? possibly another 0.10 to 15 mins maybe? I  have been through this process with them, started with a more stable bias of -1.00 for motorway driving and straight line stability duriing my wayward falken 912 period, but found a bit of understeer and they saw a little outside edge wear, LATER increased to 1.10 as you would expect to see.

hth