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[VXL V6]

If I was to ditch the self levelling on my V6 Elite and go for something that offers better handling (though not harsh and hard) what route would be best to take and what would it cost?

MV6 shock absorbers and springs?
Bilstein shock absorbers and Steinmetz springs?

[Omegatoy]

have you considered, putting a shraeder valve in the boot, lines to the shocks from it,so you can blow the airshocks up when you want for heavy loads,
then just changing the springs? best of both worlds? that what i do on the estate,s irmscher lowered uprated lovely handling, and can still do the business with the caravan on the back!!
just a thought!!

[feeutfo]

Self level shocks will work with any springs. So i'd fit lsc springs and see how you go. If further improvement needed bin sl and fit b4's.

However there is a recent thread on sl and fitting Monroe air shocks to the elite levelling system in car chat the could work. Provided Monroes are better as dampers and can allow the omega self level air lines to connect, that might be the cake and eat it answer. Maybe....?

[VXL V6]

OK, dumb question here, But I assume you are talking just rear springs here?

If I fit uprated springs on the front then I may as well fit shocks there as well as it will all have to come off?

So how would the car feel with springs changed on the rear and shocks and springs on the front?

[Martin_1962]

OK, dumb question here, But I assume you are talking just rear springs here?

If I fit uprated springs on the front then I may as well fit shocks there as well as it will all have to come off?

So how would the car feel with springs changed on the rear and shocks and springs on the front?

You will have to adjust the rear ride height as well

[VXL V6]

Why? MV6 Springs all round would lower the vehicle equally surely? Or does the shock affect ride height?  :-/

[feeutfo]

OK, dumb question here, But I assume you are talking just rear springs here?

If I fit uprated springs on the front then I may as well fit shocks there as well as it will all have to come off?

So how would the car feel with springs changed on the rear and shocks and springs on the front?

Ok, I had an lsc chassis set up as you describe there, and this then highlighted sl limitations... or "an annoyance" with the back.

I found the problem, such as it was, is a feeling of lack of independence on each side from the rear. As if(I don't know for sure)hitting a bump on one side of the rear would force some air out of that side and into the other. Like the air line linking the two shocks can't transfer the air quick enough, like a delayed reaction pumping up the other side. Or, like it should have independent air lines. Rather than a tee off to each side as they actually have...

I pointed this rear suspension issue out to 2woody when he was in the car and he referred to it as porpoising. A term I'd never herd of. But I describe it as a "goodness gracious me" head action when driving. Side to side as the rear of car rolls around the diff centre point. The back seems to roll like a boat, rather than absorb bumps per side.

The front simply didn't have the problem, and the the roll action didnt start until the rear wheels hit the same bumps the front dealt with no problem at all.

Conclude, reluctantly, bin SL.

Or, as I sit In front of telly... Self leveling, your fired! 

I never got round to changing Sl shocks on my previous car which had lsc rear springs and lsc front shocks and springs. But on this car, having found lsc to be a tad too soft  "for me", I fitted irmscher springs all round with B4,s on the front only, and keeping SL on the rear. Same but more exaggerated result, as the difference in performance was even more marked. Back was still wobbling around. Fitted B4's on the back as well, pulled the SL relay and the difference in quality is marked. Far more compliant with the rear now matching the controlled feeling of the front. No more wobble from the back, any more than the front anyway. Independent corners. Laaarvly.

Once set up, I then fitted my sport stars with lower profile tyres, and I must confess I was concerned the ride would be too crashy, ESP over broken and potholed surfaces, and considered taking them off in favor of the 17's as standard.
  However, after a couple of months the set up has settled in beautifully, the ride is now compliant, and supple but with no increase in body roll. On the way home tonight I drove down a load of country lanes with potholes and bumps on single track roads, no problem at all.
 Now you might suspect I'd got used to it, and I did too. But a certain admin agreed, I believe, that his second trip from the passenger seat was much improved over his initial test drive down the a33 saying ooh it's a bit firm.(it certainly was) it's now perfect, the 18" sport stars are staying. Phew!  8-)

So pleased. But what's supple but firm for me, may be to firm for others. Having followed you though, I suspect you'll agree. 

Down side? Fully loaded the car is quite low at the rear(it's never grounded) camber increases slightly and the back moves around a little more than I would like. However I haven't had the back set up again since adding the lpg tank in the boot. So there may be room for improvement on that front.

The car is rarely fully loaded, so sl is staying off.  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]
 

[TheBoy]

OK, dumb question here, But I assume you are talking just rear springs here?

If I fit uprated springs on the front then I may as well fit shocks there as well as it will all have to come off?

So how would the car feel with springs changed on the rear and shocks and springs on the front?

You will have to adjust the rear ride height as well

With SL, you can't lower it enough to get the same ride height as LSC. Unless your rear shocks are knackered.

[TheBoy]

Why? MV6 Springs all round would lower the vehicle equally surely? Or does the shock affect ride height?  :-/

Both shocks and springs have input to ride height.

[TheBoy]

OK, dumb question here, But I assume you are talking just rear springs here?

If I fit uprated springs on the front then I may as well fit shocks there as well as it will all have to come off?

So how would the car feel with springs changed on the rear and shocks and springs on the front?

Ok, I had an lsc chassis set up as you describe there, and this then highlighted sl limitations... or "an annoyance" with the back.

I found the problem, such as it was, is a feeling of lack of independence on each side from the rear. As if(I don't know for sure)hitting a bump on one side of the rear would force some air out of that side and into the other. Like the air line linking the two shocks can't transfer the air quick enough, like a delayed reaction pumping up the other side. Or, like it should have independent air lines. Rather than a tee off to each side as they actually have...

I pointed this rear suspension issue out to 2woody when he was in the car and he referred to it as porpoising. A term I'd never herd of. But I describe it as a "goodness gracious me" head action when driving. Side to side as the rear of car rolls around the diff centre point. The back seems to roll like a boat, rather than absorb bumps per side.

The front simply didn't have the problem, and the the roll action didnt start until the rear wheels hit the same bumps the front dealt with no problem at all.

Conclude, reluctantly, bin SL.

Or, as I sit In front of telly... Self leveling, your fired! 

I never got round to changing Sl shocks on my previous car which had lsc rear springs and lsc front shocks and springs. But on this car, having found lsc to be a tad too soft  "for me", I fitted irmscher springs all round with B4,s on the front only, and keeping SL on the rear. Same but more exaggerated result, as the difference in performance was even more marked. Back was still wobbling around. Fitted B4's on the back as well, pulled the SL relay and the difference in quality is marked. Far more compliant with the rear now matching the controlled feeling of the front. No more wobble from the back, any more than the front anyway. Independent corners. Laaarvly.

Once set up, I then fitted my sport stars with lower profile tyres, and I must confess I was concerned the ride would be too crashy, ESP over broken and potholed surfaces, and considered taking them off in favor of the 17's as standard.
  However, after a couple of months the set up has settled in beautifully, the ride is now compliant, and supple but with no increase in body roll. On the way home tonight I drove down a load of country lanes with potholes and bumps on single track roads, no problem at all.
 Now you might suspect I'd got used to it, and I did too. But a certain admin agreed, I believe, that his second trip from the passenger seat was much improved over his initial test drive down the a33 saying ooh it's a bit firm.(it certainly was) it's now perfect, the 18" sport stars are staying. Phew!  8-)

So pleased. But what's supple but firm for me, may be to firm for others. Having followed you though, I suspect you'll agree. 

Down side? Fully loaded the car is quite low at the rear(it's never grounded) camber increases slightly and the back moves around a little more than I would like. However I haven't had the back set up again since adding the lpg tank in the boot. So there may be room for improvement on that front.

The car is rarely fully loaded, so sl is staying off.  [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]
 

I kind of agree with what chrisgixer says above.  With self levelling, even with sports springs, you get a wallowing from the rear that you just can't seem to overcome.  I personally suspect this is what makes the Elite feel more wallowy/soft than CD/CDX etc.  Its certainly my biggest gripe with TBE at the moment.

I was privileged to give chrisgixer car a blast around when he first put the Irmscher/Bilstein combo on, certain it had the Sportstars on as well, as he kept clenching when I parked it .  That day, it was far too stiff for me, esp from the passenger seat (less of an issue from driver'seat).  It certainly had softened up next time I went in it (although the tyres had also been changed to SC3s).  I could live with it as it is now, although my own personal preference would perhaps be a fraction softer.  Either way, far, far better than the current Elite setup.

And, to put my money where my mouth is, I am actively trying to source some Irmscher springs, and will then buy some B4's to replicate chrisgixers setup.  Hopefully, running a slightly higher profile tyre will soften it that shade, esp for the first couple of thousand miles.

[i260]

To put a bit more light on the spring thing, Eibach made the Irmy springs, eibach make the Steinmetz springs.

My steinmetz springs come all labeled and boxed up as the eiback kit (pro-line?) with only a sticker on the box to indicate steinmetz.

The shok will indeed alter the ride height - if you use b8s it will sit lower on any given spring than b4s (b8's for -30mm or more). Steinmetz matched their 'production cars' with B8's and never looked too low on their 17's.

Steinmetz are currnentle doing free delivery and are cheaper than buying Eibach!

At about £180 i think they are a bit of a bargin!

[VXL V6]

Hi all

Thanks for the wealth of Information!

I think the issue that CG and TB describe is my biggest gripe of the V6 Elite, it's that rear end wallowing under cornering when only barely (my problem being I like the feel of a RWD car pushing its way through a bend) over sensible cornering speeds. The DTi Elite has aftermarket none SL springs on but retains the SL shocks (fitted not long before I bought it) and it feels very slightly more planted - it still wallows mid bend but not the same as the V6, I think being Manual you can also exploit it a little more (even being a 4 pot!).

The Eibach / Steinmetz springs look to be a good option for me although I can't see them for the £180 a set quoted.

So what shock absorbers would match up to these, I don't want to throw a huge amount of money at the whole setup although I want something that matches up well with the springs. Would LSC (MV6) shocks be OK or outclassed? - Tradeclub would be my friend here!

[TheBoy]

VXL V6 - the B4s will probably be cheaper than the TC options TBH.  And with Irmscher springs, is a tried combo, as that what the gay one has.  If you're likely to see him at some point, I've ask him to take you for a spin, as it is noticibly stiffer than the Elite.

A middle-of-road option would be the GM LSC springs and shocks.

[VXL V6]

OK, sounds like a way forward, I've heard Balance Motorsport is the place for B4's but where can I locate the Irmscher springs?

Failing locating Irrmscher springs, I260, where did you obtain your Steinmetz springs? Rossiters seems way over what you quote.

[feeutfo]

Irmscher springs where always going to be the flaw on the plan. Very hard to find  although I was lucky and found a new unused set.