Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[albitz]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vauxhall-mv6-omega-EATON-SUPERCHARGER-KIT-v6-x30xe-gsi-vectra-astra-corsa-vxr-/320839478416?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4ab385ec90

[Kevin Wood]

Might be interesting if nobody notices that the megasquirt is included.

Shame the blower isn't.

Be really good if it came with a spare set of rods and some J-B weld for the block.

[aaronjb]

I did wonder if it's from the fella here who was supercharging his Omega.. and whether that meant the engine had met with an untimely end..

[edit] Speaking of Megasquirt - Kevin, how do you go about sorting a base map to start from on the MS? All based on maths or does it self-learn?

[Kevin Wood]

[edit] Speaking of Megasquirt - Kevin, how do you go about sorting a base map to start from on the MS? All based on maths or does it self-learn?

There is a program that attempts to guesstimate a map based on engine parameters.. not very well, but better than nothing.

I had a perl script somewhere that takes a log file and, from averaging the Lambda sensor outputs in each cell of the map, tunes the map. A couple of iterations round that used to work nicely.

I believe there is a "self-mapping" mode in the current firmware. It was rather experimental last time I looked but I haven't updated mine for a long time so I guess that's an option these days.

So yes, several options. I got my fuel map acceptable within about 30 miles of driving with the laptop on the passenger seat using no automatic mapping tools, in any case.

[aaronjb]

I was wondering more how you go about the 'first start' scenario on an engine for which no map exists.. I guess you have to do the former, as you say; guesstimate based on the engine and work from there

I had an interesting time trying to map a friends MR2 on Saturday - couldn't get live datalogging to work so had to rely on staring at the LM1 and then figuring out which bits of map to tweak.. got it pretty close, mind; especially considering it turned out we'd forgotten to hook the boost reference up to the wastegate 

[Kevin Wood]

I was wondering more how you go about the 'first start' scenario on an engine for which no map exists.. I guess you have to do the former, as you say; guesstimate based on the engine and work from there

I tend to figure that VE at idle will be about 30% ish, and I'll have calculated injector duration at WOT to size the injectors, so divide by 3 and use that injector duration plus a generous bit for hot cranking, perhaps double that at the cold end and make sure the idle cells of the map will give me my 30% VE duration, then crank it and see if I can get it running. Once it'll run and has warmed up it's easy. Just lift the revs, correcting the fuelling as you go to get the bottom line of the map dialled in, then blend that upwards to 100% along the top, adjusting so it'll rev cleanly without insane amounts of accel enrichment. Then give the lambda sensor loop loads of authority and take to the road.

I had an interesting time trying to map a friends MR2 on Saturday - couldn't get live datalogging to work so had to rely on staring at the LM1 and then figuring out which bits of map to tweak.. got it pretty close, mind; especially considering it turned out we'd forgotten to hook the boost reference up to the wastegate 

Yes, you really appreciate being able to log what's going on at times like that.

[aaronjb]

I tend to figure that VE at idle will be about 30% ish, and I'll have calculated injector duration at WOT to size the injectors, so divide by 3 and use that injector duration plus a generous bit for hot cranking, perhaps double that at the cold end and make sure the idle cells of the map will give me my 30% VE duration, then crank it and see if I can get it running. Once it'll run and has warmed up it's easy. Just lift the revs, correcting the fuelling as you go to get the bottom line of the map dialled in, then blend that upwards to 100% along the top, adjusting so it'll rev cleanly without insane amounts of accel enrichment. Then give the lambda sensor loop loads of authority and take to the road.

Aha - that all makes sense As you can probably tell, I'm thinking about the next project again - despite it being slightly delayed thanks to Mr Tax Man. I was pondering today whether it's a better idea to build the 428 with the injection throttle bodies on initially, or build it with a carb on to get it run in; largely because I know the break-in procedure for the cam is "Start the car, get it to ~2000rpm +/- 500rpm and run for 20 minutes without stopping. Stopping and re-starting may cause damage to the cam" - which sounds like a fairly tough challenge if starting with zero map! On the other hand you can bung a carb on with 'roughly' the right jetting and a distributor with 'about' the right initial timing and you're good to go, at least for the cam break in.

Yes, you really appreciate being able to log what's going on at times like that.

Yup! It would have been very handy to know what the single tell-tale warning light was telling us! Probably that we were falling off the top of the fuel map, but it could also have been that knock was above the set threshold (although, to be fair, I couldn't hear it knocking it's nuts off as I'd expect if it were knock warning )

[cem_devecioglu]

even a sucessful set up will end like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct7z-rHlf1A&feature=related
 

[cem_devecioglu]

however interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY_22IuDnw8&feature=related

[Kevin Wood]

Aha - that all makes sense As you can probably tell, I'm thinking about the next project again - despite it being slightly delayed thanks to Mr Tax Man. I was pondering today whether it's a better idea to build the 428 with the injection throttle bodies on initially, or build it with a carb on to get it run in; largely because I know the break-in procedure for the cam is "Start the car, get it to ~2000rpm +/- 500rpm and run for 20 minutes without stopping. Stopping and re-starting may cause damage to the cam" - which sounds like a fairly tough challenge if starting with zero map! On the other hand you can bung a carb on with 'roughly' the right jetting and a distributor with 'about' the right initial timing and you're good to go, at least for the cam break in.

Mine took a fair bit of ssiping about to get it to run on carbs, TBH, (albeit twin DCOEs so a bit more adjustment needed) and 50k later it is clear that it did the cams no harm, as they are still as-new.

If you have a carb and all the bits and it's easy to bolt on it might be good for peace of mind, but I wouldn't go to any special trouble. Once an engine is running it's not that hard to keep it running IME, unless it develops a catastrophic fuel or coolant leak. It's cranking it figuring out why it won't start that sometimes takes a while.

Last recalcitrant megasquirt install I was called in on (Lancia Beta Monte Carlo  ) it was due to the intake cam timing being about 90 degrees out.

I have a spare Facet Red Top if you do go down the route of lashing up a temporary carb fuel system, although gravity feed from a lawn mower tank will probably do the job just as well.

[aaronjb]

Cheers Kevin - might take you up on the Facet when I get there; it's actually fairly simple for me to throw a carb on the 428 as the 390 has an intake manifold and already set-up Holley sitting on it, which I'm reasonably sure would meter fuel more or less right for cam break in, despite the extra displacement.

The thing that makes me most concerned is that - if I go with the Accel DFI ECU it already has - I don't know anyone who has used Accel gear this side of the pond, at least not any further south than Stoke, which means I could be somewhat on my own

Of course the other option is to deliver the block & bits to Mr Huddart up in Stoke and have him build & tune the whole thing on his engine dyno and then deliver me back a working, set up block. Although he might not like the fact that he's supposed to be the sole importer of the TWM throttle bodies & Accel setup, and mine came into the country via another route [edit] Although my recent tax bill makes that less likely! Mike is far from cheap (though I'm sure his knowledge is more than worth the money, really)

[Kevin Wood]

The thing that makes me most concerned is that - if I go with the Accel DFI ECU it already has - I don't know anyone who has used Accel gear this side of the pond, at least not any further south than Stoke, which means I could be somewhat on my own

I know lots of tuners grumble about systems they don't know, but in reality none of them are rocket science. If you're getting it tuned at a rolling road, I guess it pays to have a system the operator knows, as your (paid-for) time will be used more efficiently but if you can get it 99% of the way there on the road with a WBO2 I'd say it matters little.

Of course the other option is to deliver the block & bits to Mr Huddart up in Stoke and have him build & tune the whole thing on his engine dyno and then deliver me back a working, set up block.

BAH! Where's the fun in that?

[aaronjb]

BAH! Where's the fun in that?

  Plus I'm not sure I can really afford a five figure bill! (His customers usually have deeeep pockets, and to be fair that five figure sum was for supply & fit of all parts)

Though it does mean I'm going to have to invest in some specialist tools (dial gauges and the like) and find a reputable machine shop in the area


P.S. I don't suppose you fancy helping rebuild a V8?

[Zippy2012]

So is it possable to run a supercharger while keeping the rest of the air system standard?

i.e keeping airflow meter "bagpipes" etc

but obviously modding pipework to fit a intercooler as a supercharger will generate some serious heat
ive seen on youtube a car that still has all the original equipment fitted & looks like its running ok...

or will the motor run too lean at high revs??

im good at mechanical making things fit etc but no goot at wiring,sensors etc

will it work.... on basic turms.... S-Charger/brackets/pully/belt/reroute air delivery pipework inc intercooler,manual dumpvalve/boost guage...?

[cem_devecioglu]

So is it possable to run a supercharger while keeping the rest of the air system standard?

i.e keeping airflow meter "bagpipes" etc

but obviously modding pipework to fit a intercooler as a supercharger will generate some serious heat
ive seen on youtube a car that still has all the original equipment fitted & looks like its running ok...

or will the motor run too lean at high revs??

im good at mechanical making things fit etc but no goot at wiring,sensors etc

will it work.... on basic turms.... S-Charger/brackets/pully/belt/reroute air delivery pipework inc intercooler,manual dumpvalve/boost guage... ?

looking at the video.. no.. there are some hand made parts ..  in any case he used low pressures to be safe..

and problem is, this engine is not designed to be a high boost race engine..