Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Kevin Wood]

So, for the sake of argument, by an accident of birth I was born in a country with poor human rights, then moved to Jordan where I was arrested for extradition. How long exactly would Jordan agonise over my plight before shipping me right back from where I came? Thought so.

[Nickbat]

Just to clarify, the ECHR claims that the evidence against Abu Qatada in Jordan may have been gathered through torture, not that he would be tortured himself were he to extradited. Indeed, Jordan has pledged it would not torture him (though, frankly, I don't give a hoot if they did). 

[feeutfo]

Jordan apparently condone torture, so Eu won't allow deportation. Fair enough, although I wouldn't loose any sleep sending him their personally...

This has been raised in the house publicly, I bet "they" find that very amusing.

But I don't understand why he has to be released in the first place...? Anyone?

As I understand it, but I could be wrong .... he was not arrested for any crime alleged to have been committed in this country, but at the request of the Jordanians for deportation to answer alleged crimes in Jordan. That is why his incarceration and subsequent release on parole has been handled by the Imigration Service and not by any "real" Court in the UK. The ECHR has decreed that his deportation would breach the rules that Labour signed up to, so he cannot be deported AT THIS TIME. As he cannot be deported, he cannot be held indefinitely under English law ... term used is Custody Time Limit .. so he is released on bail, pending talks with the Jordanians. If agreement is reached with them he gets re-arrested and deported .. if no agreement he will, eventually, be released fully.

That is a simple take as I understand it right now, probably a few bits are more complicated but that's the gist of it..

Ah, cheers Entwood.
So, for instance, handing him over to the Jordanians would be like US troops torchering Iraqi troops in us prison camps? Ie, rather hypocritical? Something of a paradox one might say?

by that I refer to the pow boot camps in Iraq.

[feeutfo]

Just to clarify, the ECHR claims that the evidence against Abu Qatada in Jordan may have been gathered through torture, not that he would be tortured himself were he to extradited. Indeed, Jordan has pledged it would not torture him (though, frankly, I don't give a hoot if they did). 

Do we find ourselves in agreement Nick? 

[feeutfo]

So, for the sake of argument, by an accident of birth I was born in a country with poor human rights, then moved to Jordan where I was arrested for extradition. How long exactly would Jordan agonise over my plight before shipping me right back from where I came? Thought so.

they'd have a good torture first though probably?

[Nickbat]

Just to clarify, the ECHR claims that the evidence against Abu Qatada in Jordan may have been gathered through torture, not that he would be tortured himself were he to extradited. Indeed, Jordan has pledged it would not torture him (though, frankly, I don't give a hoot if they did). 

Do we find ourselves in agreement Nick? 

Sure looks like it, Chris. 

[feeutfo]

Just to clarify, the ECHR claims that the evidence against Abu Qatada in Jordan may have been gathered through torture, not that he would be tortured himself were he to extradited. Indeed, Jordan has pledged it would not torture him (though, frankly, I don't give a hoot if they did). 

Do we find ourselves in agreement Nick? 

Sure looks like it, Chris. 

Well, had to happen sooner or later I s'pose.

[Entwood]

One of the problems the UK Government has, is that it has tried to update the terrorism laws of this country, and is firmly committed to the principle (I para-phrase) "deliberate disobedience of the law is in itself, a form of terrorism" ... this means that because Messers Blur and Brun & Co signed up to the ECHR and committed the UK to those rules ... immediate shipping of this man to Jordan in defiance of the ruling would, not only be highly hypocritical, but would put the UK on the same "level" as the terrorists themselves.

The UK, rightly, prides itself on its record of fairness and principle, it is a shame that, rarely, these principles are tested to the extreme... by extremists .. that does NOT however make the principles wrong.

[mantahatch]

Jordan apparently condone torture, so Eu won't allow deportation. Fair enough, although I wouldn't loose any sleep sending him their personally...

This has been raised in the house publicly, I bet "they" find that very amusing.

But I don't understand why he has to be released in the first place...? Anyone?

As I understand it, but I could be wrong .... he was not arrested for any crime alleged to have been committed in this country, but at the request of the Jordanians for deportation to answer alleged crimes in Jordan. That is why his incarceration and subsequent release on parole has been handled by the Imigration Service and not by any "real" Court in the UK. The ECHR has decreed that his deportation would breach the rules that Labour signed up to, so he cannot be deported AT THIS TIME. As he cannot be deported, he cannot be held indefinitely under English law ... term used is Custody Time Limit .. so he is released on bail, pending talks with the Jordanians. If agreement is reached with them he gets re-arrested and deported .. if no agreement he will, eventually, be released fully.

That is a simple take as I understand it right now, probably a few bits are more complicated but that's the gist of it..

I thought he was found guilty in Jordan in his absence. Not 100% sure but thought I read it somwhere.

[albitz]

David Mellor was interviewed on TV today and said some things which surprised me.He stated that the UK is not in any way legally obliged to adhere to the rulings of the ECHR, that its findings were only actually advisory in law,and this is why France an Italy have acted in complete defiance of its findings in the past.
He said that coalition ministers simply dont have the bottle to do this,so like to give the impression that they have no choice in the matter.
Tbh I dont know if this is correct or not,as I always had the impression that the rulings of the ECHR were binding within the EU.

[Entwood]

David Mellor was interviewed on TV today and said some things which surprised me.He stated that the UK is not in any way legally obliged to adhere to the rulings of the ECHR, that its findings were only actually advisory in law,and this is why France an Italy have acted in complete defiance of its findings in the past.
He said that coalition ministers simply dont have the bottle to do this,so like to give the impression that they have no choice in the matter.
Tbh I dont know if this is correct or not,as I always had the impression that the rulings of the ECHR were binding within the EU.

A quick google seems to imply that is a total load of male cow manure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights

All 47 countries who have signed up to the Council of Europe have ratified the protocol.

Note ECHR has absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU, in any way, shape or form ....

[hotel21]

To my mind, this fella needs to be dissappeared from the UK by the 2012 Mr Bond and cohorts then reappeared where he needs to be, as if by magic.

We let him in on a false passport, so why not let him out on one?

[b4ndit]

Use him for target practice for new armed forces recruits 

[albitz]

David Mellor was interviewed on TV today and said some things which surprised me.He stated that the UK is not in any way legally obliged to adhere to the rulings of the ECHR, that its findings were only actually advisory in law,and this is why France an Italy have acted in complete defiance of its findings in the past.
He said that coalition ministers simply dont have the bottle to do this,so like to give the impression that they have no choice in the matter.
Tbh I dont know if this is correct or not,as I always had the impression that the rulings of the ECHR were binding within the EU.

A quick google seems to imply that is a total load of male cow manure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights

All 47 countries who have signed up to the Council of Europe have ratified the protocol.

Note ECHR has absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU, in any way, shape or form ....

Strictly speaking,thats absolutely correct.I have the impression though that it has been hijacked/infiltrated by EU minded types just as most other things in Europe have been. They now interfere in all sorts of things which werent what the institution was set up for in the first place.Afaik its main purpose was to help ensure that nothing resembling Nazi Germany could happen in Europe in the future,but it has now got to the point where it interferes in much more minor matters in member states which the people sitting on judgement have often never even visited and know almost nothing about.Like most other large institutions its needs to be seriously overhauled or simply abolished altogether.
Imo the fact that it has a backlog of approx. 140,000 cases tends to indicate that there is something very badly wrong with it.

[albitz]

Short version, lets hope Theresa May and Cameron grow a pair between them,and decide to act in the interests of the country,rather than listen to the Limpdems or the ECHR.