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[Omega man 2]

and as Ron Burgundy rightly pointed out, Marxist/Communist states offer no choice. When you think about it, the ability to choose what you want as a reward for your labours, is in itself, a freedom. 

Yep

effort+reward=progress

[Nickbat]

and as Ron Burgundy rightly pointed out, Marxist/Communist states offer no choice. When you think about it, the ability to choose what you want as a reward for your labours, is in itself, a freedom. 

Yep

effort+reward=progress

Spot on, Ron! 

[albitz]

There is no political system which stifles and smothers the human spirit and creativity to the degree which Marxism does,although Muslim fundamentalism comes pretty close,which is why the people of the eastern bloc countries tore down the Berlin wall and overthrew the soviets,and why the Chinese people tried to do the same thing in the infamous Tianenman square incident and why,if you go to Cuba on holiday the locals will try to befriend you and con you into sponsoring them for a visitors visa to "visit"you in your capitalist country.They live in countries where there is little or no hope of achieving a better life no matter how hard they try.That is what Marxism has achieved in every country where it has been imposed.
It is almost beyond belief that seemingly educated people in this day and age can still teach Marxism as a worthwhile alternative to capitalism,They are imo,rebels without a clue,who havent moved on from the politics of the 6th form.

[cem_devecioglu]

Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you  )  -

Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! 

  if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho 

ok how is that..

"workers of all countries , unite"

Power to the People Comrade Cem!! 

....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s

I still love it all now in my fifties, but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

Marx and Engel's have suggested a great way forward, but it requires very brave politicians to try them out in the current capitalist western world which is still alive and kicking inspite of what Marx predicted.

...does that indicate the fundemental flaw in the Marxist ideal Ms Zoom? :-/ :-/

No, because Marx could not predict how long it would take before capitalism collapsed in on itself, which indeed very nearly transpired in the final months of 2008. It willl happen as he predicted.  It is not "if" but "when", and that will be when the masses finally loose patience with the system that alienates them from their creative self, for the benefit of the minority elite who will never allow equality.  Only then will mankind be truly free to follow their spirit. 8-) 8-) 8-)

No, it won't, Lizzie.

Capitalism is the private ownership of the factors of production. Anyone who thinks that all private enterprises could ever be transferred to the state without violence (which is what would be required) is seriously deluded. OK, a few banks have been bailed out and states have bought part equity - that's not the end of capitalism. Indeed, capitalism will never end, since it is the economic scenario that most closely matches human nature. In essence, the harder you work, the more you shall receive. The socialist/Marxist stance, that every one is equal, assumes that each individual will put the same effort in to receive the same reward. Nice thought, but ignores many human frailties such as laziness and greed. A sponger will never work as hard as someone who has a moral conscience, or someone who wants more of the cake. If they get paid the same, despite the effort, the workers who have put in the extra effort (for whatever motivation) will work less hard and the system will reduce down to the lowest common denominator, i.e the sponger.

Capitalism (albeit regulated to reduce excesses) will always remain the prevailing system.      

all answers to your statements and detailed explanations are already inside "das capital"..

[Nickbat]

Cem wrote: "all answers to your statements and detailed explanations are already inside "das capital"..

Not sure that a book written 142 years ago can tell me much about today's society. Besides which, capitalism has thrived since he wrote it.

[cem_devecioglu]

Cem wrote: "all answers to your statements and detailed explanations are already inside "das capital"..

Not sure that a book written 142 years ago can tell me much about today's society. Besides which, capitalism has thrived since he wrote it.

"basically" economy politics and production relations

between the slave-owner or modern worker-boss relation has not changed since the last 3000 years

and I dont think will change after..

[Lizzie_Zoom]

If we want to continue the workers existance of being under the thumb of capitalism then fair enough, forget change.

But if we want each and every human to be really free to fulfil their creative self from cradle to grave then change has to happen, with capitalism consigned to the dustbin of history.  At present a child is born into its circumstances, as directed by the capitalist forces that have created an elistist system.  A child in a poor household, although there will be lucky exceptions, will often not have the environment to study in, will not have the resourse available to advance their education to optinum levels, and certianly will not receive the best standard of teaching as available to the wealthy.

They will leave school never reaching their full potential at that stage, and be inserted into the system that forces you to work for minimal wages in the interests of the ruling elite.  If they fall ill due to the pressures of work, there is the NHS to put them right, only for the purposes of them to return to the work that put themselves there in the first place.

That person goes through life having to accept what is; whatever the capitalist market dictates of them.  Whatever taxes they are asked to pay, they have to pay it.  Whatever it costs to live they have to pay it, or starve.  The system insists they carry on working for it, not what they could achieve if freed from the chains that limit their freedom, and knowledge, alienating them from their creative selves.

Plato in The Republic(380 BC), and more recently Kant in his An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment (1784) envisage a system where every man has the freedom to be free to obtain the best education and knowledge, away from the 'darkness' of ignorance, to achieve their best potential. Currently the capitalist system allows only for certain 'classes' of people to gain just enough knowledge to meet the demands of the production line, office or other work place to keep the capitalist machine working. This produces the profit that is then unequally distributed, favouring the elite, but not fairly rewarding those who have actually formed the means of production, and by the sweat of their brow created the very product that has produced the profit.

The ideal system is one were those who produce the profit can earn unlimited wages and own property legally obtained.  The "supervisors" of the system, security services, civil services, and general support services are their to protect the workers and are paid for by them.  The leaders or 'king philospers' provide the ideas, education, and moral leadership for the system, but are not allowed to earn money or own property, but are supported by the workers, in return for their services to this system.

To achieve this would require a revolution, and a whole shift in human thought, as yes it must be recognised as Hobbes (1588 - 1679) wrote man is born naturally greedy and if allowed to will commit war continually agains't fellow man.  His ideas of a supreme leader as suggested in Leviathan(1651) could work in the previously described system, but with this 'leader' not enjoying any personal wealth, but the 'workers' enjoying great reward for the labours.

Yes this may seem like a Utopia, which can never be achieved, and probably will not in our life time, or that of our children, and their children.  However, one day change away from the capitalist system will be required to create a far better standard of life for every man, woman, and child, than what will be then a discredited system.  No more will a few be allowed to gain benefit at the expense of others (look around us now and ask are we happy with what we see??) All will be free as Locke (1632 - 1704) envisaged with full justice as Rawls (1921 - 2002) outlined in his A Theory of Justice (2008).

With a combination of these ideals, and especially considering those of Karl Marx (1818 - 1883) plus many more I cannot envisage now in 2008, we could build a far better world for us all away from the culture of greed and inequality, but have we got the moral courage and physical strength to see such change through?  Possibly it will take an accumulation of political developments for all this to transpire, such as with the French Revolution of 1789. 
   

[cem_devecioglu]

If we want to continue the workers existance of being under the thumb of capitalism then fair enough, forget change.

But if we want each and every human to be really free to fulfil their creative self from cradle to grave then change has to happen, with capitalism consigned to the dustbin of history.  At present a child is born into its circumstances, as directed by the capitalist forces that have created an elistist system.  A child in a poor household, although there will be lucky exceptions, will often not have the environment to study in, will not have the resourse available to advance their education to optinum levels, and certianly will not receive the best standard of teaching as available to the wealthy.

They will leave school never reaching their full potential at that stage, and be inserted into the system that forces you to work for minimal wages in the interests of the ruling elite.  If they fall ill due to the pressures of work, there is the NHS to put them right, only for the purposes of them to return to the work that put themselves there in the first place.

That person goes through life having to accept what is; whatever the capitalist market dictates of them.  Whatever taxes they are asked to pay, they have to pay it.  Whatever it costs to live they have to pay it, or starve.  The system insists they carry on working for it, not what they could achieve if freed from the chains that limit their freedom, and knowledge, alienating them from their creative selves.

Plato in The Republic(380 BC), and more recently Kant in his An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment (1784) envisage a system where every man has the freedom to be free to obtain the best education and knowledge, away from the 'darkness' of ignorance, to achieve their best potential. Currently the capitalist system allows only for certain 'classes' of people to gain just enough knowledge to meet the demands of the production line, office or other work place to keep the capitalist machine working. This produces the profit that is then unequally distributed, favouring the elite, but not fairly rewarding those who have actually formed the means of production, and by the sweat of their brow created the very product that has produced the profit.

The ideal system is one were those who produce the profit can earn unlimited wages and own property legally obtained.  The "supervisors" of the system, security services, civil services, and general support services are their to protect the workers and are paid for by them.  The leaders or 'king philospers' provide the ideas, education, and moral leadership for the system, but are not allowed to earn money or own property, but are supported by the workers, in return for their services to this system.

To achieve this would require a revolution, and a whole shift in human thought, as yes it must be recognised as Hobbes (1588 - 1679) wrote man is born naturally greedy and if allowed to will commit war continually agains't fellow man.  His ideas of a supreme leader as suggested in Leviatan(1651) could work in the previously described system, but with this 'leader' not enjoying any personal wealth, but the 'workers' enjoying great reward for the labours.

Yes this may seem like a Utopia, which can never be achieved, and probably will not in our life time, or that of our children, and their children.  However, one day change away from the capitalist system will be required to create a far better standard of life for every man, woman, and child, than what will be then a discredited system.  No more will a few be allowed to gain benefit at the expense of others (look around us now and ask are we happy with what we see??) All will be free as Locke (1632 - 1704) envisaged with full justice as Rawls (1921 - 2002) outlined in his A Theory of Justice (2008).

With a combination of these ideals, and especially considering those of Karl Marx (1818 - 1883) plus many more I cannot envisage now in 2008, we could build a far better world for us all away from the culture of greed and inequality, but have we got the moral courage and physical strength to see such change through?  Possibly it will take an accumulation of political developments for all this to transpire, such as with the French Revolution of 1789. 
   

Excellent..