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[Nickbat]

My heart goes out to the families of the victims...   


I don't want to detract from the main point of this thread by making it into another political discussion but...
Gun law is based upon the mistaken premise that a <person> who is willing to commit murder, rape, kidnap, terrorism or robbery will obey a law which forbids him from illegally equipping himself with a tool to make those things easier.
Gun law removes weapons from the law-abiding, not from criminals - all I can think is that if the teachers had been armed, the killer might have been stopped at two or three victims instead of 20.
And I thought the same after Dunblane, and Hungerford, and the Lakes shootings, and the St. Lukes Machette attack, and Columbine and...

Having said that - murder rates for the UK, with some of the strictest gun laws in the world, has a murder rate of 0.8 people per 100,000 (2011) compared with an average of 4.7 in the USA.

However Texas, where everyone is habitually armed has a murder-rate of 4.4 (less than average), compared to Washington DC (stricter gun laws) with a rate of 21.9 (2010 figures)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but here goes. I do feel very sorry for all the families affected but I am not in the least bit surprised and neither should anyone especially in the States. Just what do they expect of a society of basically naturally violent individuals when they have the opportunity to blaze away with a weepon? As to the higher murder rates in Washington I would put that down to simply more people packed closely together. My theory is people need their space. You do not get that in densely packed living. Don't believe me? Just watch people in lifts. They stop talking, hide in a corner except when they are the poor unfortunate fifth person to enter. Road rage on crowded motorways, neighbour disputes in cramped housing and so on.

Try Googling "Shootings in Finland 2012" and read the results.

Are the Finns naturally violent individuals?

Do the Finns not have enough space?

Try, instead, reading about the gunman's profile: a loner with a dysfunctional family. Try reading Albs excellent link on the dispensing of psychotic drugs, especially to young people.

IMHO, not enough is done to identify and treat correctly mental instability and personality disorder in today's youth (albeit a tiny minority).   

[Nickbat]

It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

[bigegg]

Try Googling "Shootings in Finland 2012" and read the results.

Are the Finns naturally violent individuals?

Do the Finns not have enough space?

Try, instead, reading about the gunman's profile: a loner with a dysfunctional family. Try reading Albs excellent link on the dispensing of psychotic drugs, especially to young people.

IMHO, not enough is done to identify and treat correctly mental instability and personality disorder in today's youth (albeit a tiny minority).   

This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
states that overall, Finland has a murder rate of 2.2 / 100,000 people which is *much* lower than most of the US, and on a par with the rest of Europe (including the UK).
Finland has a gun-ownership rate of somewhere between 32 and 55 guns per 100 people - according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland
Compare Switzerland, with a murder rate of 0.7 per 100,000 (half the UK's) where there are, according to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
Switzerland has a gun ownership rate of 45.7 guns / 100 people - most of which are military issue Sig 550 rifles!

This is a good site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership_rate
which lists the UK as 88th in ranking for gun ownership (at 6.2 guns/100 population)

I'm going to run an analysis on the figures, but at first glance, I would say there is little to no correlation between gun ownership and murder rates  - obviously there is a correlation between gun-murder and gun ownership, but at first glance, I would say that would-be murderers are able to kill their victims regardless of access to firearms - and this MUST be considered against the potential victim's access to firearms.


As to this particular case
Any country/government or individual who allows a mentally unstable (I'll say that to be charitable) person access to firearms, or knives, or hammers,or cars should be held just as liable for whatever ensues.
I would say that it's not guns which need to be controlled, it's probably merkians...

[Lazydocker]

It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.

I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him

My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!

[cem_devecioglu]

looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..

[Varche]

My heart goes out to the families of the victims...   


I don't want to detract from the main point of this thread by making it into another political discussion but...
Gun law is based upon the mistaken premise that a <person> who is willing to commit murder, rape, kidnap, terrorism or robbery will obey a law which forbids him from illegally equipping himself with a tool to make those things easier.
Gun law removes weapons from the law-abiding, not from criminals - all I can think is that if the teachers had been armed, the killer might have been stopped at two or three victims instead of 20.
And I thought the same after Dunblane, and Hungerford, and the Lakes shootings, and the St. Lukes Machette attack, and Columbine and...

Having said that - murder rates for the UK, with some of the strictest gun laws in the world, has a murder rate of 0.8 people per 100,000 (2011) compared with an average of 4.7 in the USA.

However Texas, where everyone is habitually armed has a murder-rate of 4.4 (less than average), compared to Washington DC (stricter gun laws) with a rate of 21.9 (2010 figures)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but here goes. I do feel very sorry for all the families affected but I am not in the least bit surprised and neither should anyone especially in the States. Just what do they expect of a society of basically naturally violent individuals when they have the opportunity to blaze away with a weepon? As to the higher murder rates in Washington I would put that down to simply more people packed closely together. My theory is people need their space. You do not get that in densely packed living. Don't believe me? Just watch people in lifts. They stop talking, hide in a corner except when they are the poor unfortunate fifth person to enter. Road rage on crowded motorways, neighbour disputes in cramped housing and so on.

Try Googling "Shootings in Finland 2012" and read the results.

Are the Finns naturally violent individuals?

Do the Finns not have enough space?

Try, instead, reading about the gunman's profile: a loner with a dysfunctional family. Try reading Albs excellent link on the dispensing of psychotic drugs, especially to young people.

IMHO, not enough is done to identify and treat correctly mental instability and personality disorder in today's youth (albeit a tiny minority).   

Nick. The human race is a naturally violent species. It is only the norms of society that contains that violence. Without the norms we would very quickly revert to our base level. Be it cruelty to animals, other less fortunate beings on an individual level or organised against ethnic, religous groups or nations. There are examples of this on television EVERY day. So yes the Finns or who ever you name are naturally violent but society stops them from being so in the main.

[Gaffers]

looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..

That's why when legally held handguns were banned in the UK the black market was flooded with illegal handguns, the cost came down and gun crime went up.  To say that accessbility to legally held guns accross a whole population is the one solution to gun crime is a very narrow minded view IMO, it is much more deeply rooted in the society in which guns exist.  I do not fel that eveyone should be entitled to hold firearms, only those who have demonstrated an understanding and culture of safety in to their pysche.  Why guns are being allowed in to the hands of people with mental disorders is beyond me.... look at most of the incidents which have involved mass killings, most have been commited by people who have shown evidence of mental distress or a disorder yet they have been allowed to keep firearms

I like the German system where you have to take lessons in gun control over a few years while also taking lessons in deer recognition (age/type/sex all in a blink of an eye..... it's very tough)  you only get your permit after passing safety and competancy tests on the firearms (including moving targets) as well as passing a 2 hour animal identification exam.  I barely passed both and I have been using firearms and hunting since I was young.  It is not a perfect system but I feel it keeps most of the unsuitable types out of firearm ownership out.

I was also very suprised by America attitudes toward gun safety, specifically with NRA members.  They are depicted as gun toting maniacs in our society.  I saw a very different side.  They are obsessed with safety and my being in the military and being qualified to manage a shooting range, being qualified on several large gun systems made no difference on their requirement to see how I safe I handled a firearm before I was allowed to hunt with them.

[cem_devecioglu]

looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..

That's why when legally held handguns were banned in the UK the black market was flooded with illegal handguns, the cost came down and gun crime went up.  To say that accessbility to legally held guns accross a whole population is the one solution to gun crime is a very narrow minded view IMO, it is much more deeply rooted in the society in which guns exist.  I do not fel that eveyone should be entitled to hold firearms, only those who have demonstrated an understanding and culture of safety in to their pysche.  Why guns are being allowed in to the hands of people with mental disorders is beyond me.... look at most of the incidents which have involved mass killings, most have been commited by people who have shown evidence of mental distress or a disorder yet they have been allowed to keep firearms

I like the German system where you have to take lessons in gun control over a few years while also taking lessons in deer recognition (age/type/sex all in a blink of an eye..... it's very tough)  you only get your permit after passing safety and competancy tests on the firearms (including moving targets) as well as passing a 2 hour animal identification exam.  I barely passed both and I have been using firearms and hunting since I was young.  It is not a perfect system but I feel it keeps most of the unsuitable types out of firearm ownership out.

I was also very suprised by America attitudes toward gun safety, specifically with NRA members.  They are depicted as gun toting maniacs in our society.  I saw a very different side.  They are obsessed with safety and my being in the military and being qualified to manage a shooting range, being qualified on several large gun systems made no difference on their requirement to see how I safe I handled a firearm before I was allowed to hunt with them.

when the laws are enough strict and harsh no one will give you a sig sauer or browning for a coke money   so your logic is wrong!
 
here a browning or a sig sauer is around 5500$ without bullets!  and if you carry the necessary license!!
 
so my citizens discovered more natural cheaper tools to kill!! but thanks to prices no mass murder (erm.. rarely!)

[cem_devecioglu]

by the way killing the whole self family in police officers with self legal gun is very common!

[cem_devecioglu]

looking at the picture and probability, if there were stricter gun laws this person could not find too many guns under hand.. if wanted to buy from mafia market his money would be adequate to buy may be only 1 not 3 good guns.. and less people would die.. simples..

That's why when legally held handguns were banned in the UK the black market was flooded with illegal handguns, the cost came down and gun crime went up.  To say that accessbility to legally held guns accross a whole population is the one solution to gun crime is a very narrow minded view IMO, it is much more deeply rooted in the society in which guns exist.  I do not fel that eveyone should be entitled to hold firearms, only those who have demonstrated an understanding and culture of safety in to their pysche.  Why guns are being allowed in to the hands of people with mental disorders is beyond me.... look at most of the incidents which have involved mass killings, most have been commited by people who have shown evidence of mental distress or a disorder yet they have been allowed to keep firearms

I like the German system where you have to take lessons in gun control over a few years while also taking lessons in deer recognition (age/type/sex all in a blink of an eye..... it's very tough)  you only get your permit after passing safety and competancy tests on the firearms (including moving targets) as well as passing a 2 hour animal identification exam.  I barely passed both and I have been using firearms and hunting since I was young.  It is not a perfect system but I feel it keeps most of the unsuitable types out of firearm ownership out.

I was also very suprised by America attitudes toward gun safety, specifically with NRA members.  They are depicted as gun toting maniacs in our society.  I saw a very different side.  They are obsessed with safety and my being in the military and being qualified to manage a shooting range, being qualified on several large gun systems made no difference on their requirement to see how I safe I handled a firearm before I was allowed to hunt with them.

when the laws are enough strict and harsh no one will give you a sig sauer or browning for a coke money   so your logic is wrong!
 
here a browning or a sig sauer is around 5500$ without bullets!  and if you carry the necessary license!!
 
ps: assuming you want to buy unused not to risk yourself.. but even second hands are half that price.. and if you try to buy from mafia prices will be double..
 
so my citizens discovered more natural cheaper tools to kill!! but thanks to prices no mass murder (erm.. rarely!)

[AlphaRunabout]

The right to bear arms,lead to the right to shoot kids . Americans need to change the second ammendment.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I was going to post a picture of the six year old (just saying that reduces me to tears!! British born boy who was killed along with so many.  However, I just can't............it is just too distressing, and I just cannot imagine what those poor parents are going through.  As a mother and grandmother it is just beyond me............little life, new life lost

For those who can emotionally stand it on this BBC News link you  will see the face of an angel.........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20745431

Rest little sweet one, with the angels, rest.

[Nickbat]

It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.

I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him

My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!

Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.

Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and her gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete. 

[cem_devecioglu]

It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.

I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him

My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!

Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.

Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and USA gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete.

corrected..

[cem_devecioglu]

this sad event give a lesson.. all schools must be protected by armed security, and there must be x-ray equipment to control maniacs..
 
whatever the cost..