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[Sir Tigger KC]

People 'flip' and loose their grip for a variety of reasons drugs, alcohol, illness or just plain old stress!

This is the eighth shooting in America this year.  Mass shootings happen elsewhere as well, but at no where near the same frequency as in the USA.  In my opinion this is a direct result of their gun control laws! If Adam Lanza's mother didn't/couldn't have a semi automatic assault rifle and a couple of handguns at home, then for sure he could have obtained the weapons illegally even if America had stringent gun laws, but that would have required a degree of planning and maybe he wouldn't have gone through with it.  We'll never know....

It's more likely he 'lost it' for some reason, the guns were at hand and he used them!

Nick has said that the same sort of carnage could be caused with a machete, which is true to an extent.  China has had a few incidents where nutters have attacked and killed school children with knives, but I doubt Adam Lanza could have killed so many people in one go with a knife. 

I think that America's gun control law is extremely relevant to this thread and it should be debated!

[cem_devecioglu]

 
problem stems from the gun industry in USA..  they have strong political relations for centuries.. so they build their laws to sell those guns easily..    blaming a maniac is easy but actual reasons are far deeper than that..

[Nickbat]

People 'flip' and loose their grip for a variety of reasons drugs, alcohol, illness or just plain old stress!

This is the eighth shooting in America this year.  Mass shootings happen elsewhere as well, but at no where near the same frequency as in the USA.  In my opinion this is a direct result of their gun control laws! If Adam Lanza's mother didn't/couldn't have a semi automatic assault rifle and a couple of handguns at home, then for sure he could have obtained the weapons illegally even if America had stringent gun laws, but that would have required a degree of planning and maybe he wouldn't have gone through with it.  We'll never know....

It's more likely he 'lost it' for some reason, the guns were at hand and he used them!

Nick has said that the same sort of carnage could be caused with a machete, which is true to an extent.  China has had a few incidents where nutters have attacked and killed school children with knives, but I doubt Adam Lanza could have killed so many people in one go with a knife. 

I think that America's gun control law is extremely relevant to this thread and it should be debated!

I don't think there's much to debate, really. If the majority of US citizens want gun control, then that's fine (I certainly would not want the right to bear arms introduced in this country). However, given the number of weapons around in the US, I can't in all honesty ever see that such a law would be adhered to. Can you really see all US citizens handing over their guns? No, I don't think so. Access to weaponry will remain relatively easy, IMHO, whatever laws are passed. And remember, too, that it is being reported that the killer's mother was in legal possession of the weapons and was member of a gun club. If this tragedy were to avoided by legislation, then all gun clubs would have to be banned, or members forced to keep their weapons in guarded storage at the club.

However, it's up to the citizens of the USA to make that call.

I'm just more concerned that people with mental instability are free to carry out such attacks. How often do we hear (as in this case) that the killer was a "loner" and had difficulty making friends and mixing in society? I think teachers and parents should be made far more aware of personality disorders and treatment sought. Remember that man who was let out ("Care in the Community") and pushed an innocent female bystander under a tube train in London? Or, even more recently, that man who ran up to a complete stranger and punched her unconscious in the street (on Crimewatch the other week)? Random acts of violence by people who should be in secure care. Those people will still be around with or without gun control. They will still be able to wreak their twisted revenge on the innocents, if not with guns, then with fists, knives, arson or explosives.

[cem_devecioglu]

problem stems from the gun industry in USA..  they have strong political relations for centuries.. so they build their laws to sell those guns easily..    blaming a maniac is easy but actual reasons are far deeper than that..

and besides , I see interesting views on that event..
 
telling that there will always be maniacs around which can easily get unlicensed guns is whole nonsense..
 
as a state, your duty is to protect your citizen..  if you cant do that, resign and let someone who can do it ,be selected..
 
you can spend money to collect all guns, fight with mafia not to sell any like you did for heroin.. in case necessary ,apply very harsh punishment .. 
 
but of course these facts are very far from reality in a capitalist system where politicians have strong relations with mafia and gun industry..

[Sir Tigger KC]

We'll never be able to stop random attacks by unstable people, but we can limit the damage they can cause......

For what it's worth I'm not anti-gun by any means.  I have owned and used guns myself in the past (Legally!) and I think that in this country we have it about right with our gun control laws, yet other countries have more liberal laws than ours and don't seem to have the problems that they do in the US.....

I still think however that it is utterly insane to allow people to keep weapons such as semi automatic assault rifles, which are designed to kill people not deer!

[cem_devecioglu]

sunday picnic   thank god I dont have neighbours like those
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lkCc6y9MpM
 
 
seems like USA have a long way to go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnU1t7UzgM

[Nick W]

this sad event give a lesson.. all schools must be protected by armed security, and there must be x-ray equipment to control maniacs..
 
whatever the cost..

All schools? There are thousands of them. Armed security? X-ray machines? To prevent the very rare oppswit whose got a grudge and managed to find a gun?
Who wants to live like that?

Where do you stop? Anti aircraft missile emplacements just in case the next bunch of nutters mistake St Chav's Primary School for a couple of towers on the skyline?

Whatever the cost is easy to say, but utterly impossible to achieve. And trying it makes for a worse situation than you were trying to avoid.

[cem_devecioglu]

this sad event give a lesson.. all schools must be protected by armed security, and there must be x-ray equipment to control maniacs..
 
whatever the cost..

All schools? There are thousands of them. Armed security? X-ray machines? To prevent the very rare oppswit whose got a grudge and managed to find a gun?
Who wants to live like that?

Where do you stop? Anti aircraft missile emplacements just in case the next bunch of nutters mistake St Chav's Primary School for a couple of towers on the skyline?

Whatever the cost is easy to say, but utterly impossible to achieve. And trying it makes for a worse situation than you were trying to avoid.

if you want to stop this tragedy happening again you have 2 ways .. either stop selling the guns and collect them,  or protect critical areas..  choose one of them.. or watch what happens and blame the maniacs..
 
 

[feeutfo]

america will never give up its guns, and even if it did, the place is so saturated with arms, it only takes one person to hide one under the bed and it get into the wrong hands and the whole process of eradcating arms will be a complete waste of time.

as said so often on here, the rules are not needed for the people who abide by them.

The arms industry in the U.S is too powerfull, it employs/involves too many people who vote for its leader. They wont tolerate a blow to the economy and their income and their supply of their guns etc etc.

on the face of it, it seems the hypocrcy of the situation is obvious, as the mother of the perpatrator apparently owned the guns, from what the media are saying...?

why on earth does a mother of two and a teacher at a school need one asault rifle, never mind three ...? never mind a parent of a possibly mentally unstable young adult.

if looking into the progresion of a gun culture and making it safer, given its totaly embedded in the countrys foundations, the ADDITION of a body or an organistaion responsible for stricter controls of screening of licenses might be a way forward.
 obviuosly parents of a child with psychological issues might be considered worthy of restriction, for what its worth. At least identifying individuals capable of flipping a lid would be sensible, providing jobs for those responsible for controlling them etcetc.

If the U.S already has this then they need to beef it up, and charge gun owners for the pleaure.

Maybe.

[cem_devecioglu]

america will never give up its guns, and even if it did, the place is so saturated with arms, it only takes one person to hide one under the bed and it get into the wrong hands and the whole process of eradcating arms will be a complete waste of time.

as said so often on here, the rules are not needed for the people who abide by them.

The arms industry in the U.S is too powerfull, it employs/involves too many people who vote for its leader. They wont tolerate a blow to the economy and their income and their supply of their guns etc etc.

on the face of it, it seems the hypocrcy of the situation is obvious, as the mother of the perpatrator apparently owned the guns, from what the media are saying...?

why on earth does a mother of two and a teacher at a school need one asault rifle, never mind three ...? never mind a parent of a possibly mentally unstable young adult.

if looking into the progresion of a gun culture and making it safer, given its totaly embedded in the countrys foundations, the ADDITION of a body or an organistaion responsible for stricter controls of screening of licenses might be a way forward.
 obviuosly parents of a child with psychological issues might be considered worthy of restriction, for what its worth. At least identifying individuals capable of flipping a lid would be sensible, providing jobs for those responsible for controlling them etcetc.

If the U.S already has this then they need to beef it up, and charge gun owners for the pleasure.

Maybe.

valid points Chris..
 
my country charges serious amount of yearly tax for gun owners.. unless you are a soldier , police or govt worker..
 
and besides thats valid for a hand gun.. but if you are caught with an automatic rifle (wherever) you are finished.. the least punishment you will get is to be beaten for many days then you will be accepted as a member of terrorist organization and you can forget about your freedom for long long years..
 
however, I think still we are ignoring one factor.. not only mentally unstable persons also normal persons can do similiar things when they become angry.. people who loose their jobs, people who have problem with some group(s), and from various reasons same/similiar can happen.. for example some years ago in İstanbul, mafia had a bloody duel in a very crowded restaurant and many people died and wounded..
so,most angry persons is a potential risk if they have access to guns
 
for one thing I'm very sure, the solution is never to arm every person and convert whole country to an arms storehouse..

[feeutfo]

too late

[cem_devecioglu]

too late

its never too late Chris.. there are always things that can be done to reverse the situation.. otherwise same things will happen over and over..

[Lazydocker]

It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.

I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him

My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!

Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.

Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and her gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete.

Sorry Nick, not been online today.

Yes, IME it is entirely possible that if he truly suffers Asperger's that something as trivial as not liking the weather could make him "flip".

My brother has been known to have a complete plot loss over the fact that it's snowing I know it's frustrating sometimes but we're talking about a 19 year old lad who doesn't leave the house for weeks on end unless forced to

Fortunately he is no longer showing violence towards our mother (as a general rule) after the last visit I paid. He is now 19 years old and I pointed out to him that if he wants to fight he should pick on me, which he tried But over the years he has managed to kick pretty much every door off it's hinges, punch holes in walls, smash windows, smash up anything he gets frustrated with..... The list goes on.

It's very distressing to watch on and know there is very little that can be done. It took several years to finally get a diagnosis but once that was made there is very little that can be done to help. He is completely incapable of even the smallest of tasks, although I'm sure that living at home with mum didn't help that, and will lose his temper at the slightest thing. I have managed to get him to control his anger a little, but only when under my roof.

But, I have to say, if he truly was diagnosed with Asperger's then there really shouldn't have been any form of weapon anywhere near him Every time the phone rings at a strange time I fear it's a call from Yorkshire and that I'll need to be in the car. I'm hoping that there will be progress in moving him out in the new year. I did consider moving him in with me a couple of years ago but I wouldn't be comfortable leaving him at home with the animals, never mind SWMBO

[Vamps]

It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.

I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him

My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!

The following came into my facebook today from an organisation called 'Always-Unique-Totally-Intelligent-Sometimes-Mysterious' an American site on those  with ASD and their families, and linked to the following.

IME those with Aspergers and not so agressive but some with high end Autism can be and can 'turn' for no apparent to the non autistic person, not so sure I agree to everything said but I guess they were going to react....

I quote: While an official has said that the 20-year-old gunman in the Connecticut school shooting had Asperger's syndrome, experts say there is no connection between the disorder and violence.
 
Asperger's is a mild form of autism often characterized by social awkwardness.
 
"There really is no clear association between Asperger's and violent behavior," said psychologist Elizabeth Laugeson, an assistant clinical professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.
 
Little is known about Adam Lanza, identified by police as the shooter in the Friday massacre at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school. He fatally shot his mother before going to the school and killing 20 young children, six adults and himself, authorities said.
 
A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to discuss the unfolding investigation, said Lanza had been diagnosed with Asperger's.
 
High school classmates and others have described him as bright but painfully shy, anxious and a loner. Those kinds of symptoms are consistent with Asperger's, said psychologist Eric Butter of Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, who treats autism, including Asperger's, but has no knowledge of Lanza's case.
 
Research suggests people with autism do have a higher rate of aggressive behavior — outbursts, shoving or pushing or angry shouting — than the general population, he said.
 
"But we are not talking about the kind of planned and intentional type of violence we have seen at Newtown," he said in an email.
 
"These types of tragedies have occurred at the hands of individuals with many different types of personalities and psychological profiles," he added.
 
Autism is a developmental disorder that can range from mild to severe. Asperger's generally is thought of as a mild form. Both autism and Asperger's can be characterized by poor social skills, repetitive behavior or interests and problems communicating. Unlike classic autism, Asperger's does not typically involve delays in mental development or speech.
 
Experts say those with autism and related disorders are sometimes diagnosed with other mental health problems, such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder or obsessive-compulsive disorder.
 
"I think it's far more likely that what happened may have more to do with some other kind of mental health condition like depression or anxiety rather than Asperger's," Laugeson said.
 
She said those with Asperger's tend to focus on rules and be very law-abiding.
 
"There's something more to this," she said. "We just don't know what that is yet."
 
After much debate, the term Asperger's is being dropped from the diagnostic manual used by the nation's psychiatrists. In changes approved earlier this month, Asperger's will be incorporated under the umbrella term "autism spectrum disorder" for all the ranges of autism.

End of quote. I will be interested to see what happens in this country, oh and for information the latest stats for a child with ASD is 1 in 80............

[Vamps]

It is now being reported that the gunman had Asperger's syndrome.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/adam-lanza-an-enigma-who-is-now-identified-as-a-mass-killer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

My kid brother (now a young adult) has Asperger's and I've experienced his mood swings and unpredictable reactions first hand many times. In fact, that's why I have (finally!) convinced my mum that he needs to leave home and go into sheltered housing. He will never integrate properly into society but stands a better chance in the right environment, which isn't at home.

I fear that one day I will get a call to say that be has really hurt her, or worse As I have explained to her, I can't always drop everything and make the 500 mile round trip when he's getting out of hand Although he has improved after the last "chat" I had with him

My point is, though, that it is a very unpredictable condition and someone suffering it can "flip" for the tiniest of things! For him it can be as silly as it's Raining today!

Thanks for that insightful post. I have, thankfully, no idea of how Asperger's can affect people. Since you have experience, may I ask a direct question? In your opinion, would it be feasible for an Asperger's sufferer to "flip" and carry out this sort of totally despicable act of violence? I cannot imagine even the most evil of evil people would shoot six-year olds at point blank range, but when sanity goes, maybe any rational sense of what constitutes vile behaviour is suspended.

Sadly the original post has reverted to a bit of bashing the Bad Old US of A and her gun laws. Beyond my total disgust at the killings and my heartfelt sympathy for all those who have suffered loss, I am trying to get my head round the mindset of someone who could act with the ultimate barbarity. This has less to do with gun control and more to do with identifying and separating dangerous people from potential victims, either through treatment or incarceration. The killer could, after all, have created almost as much carnage armed with a machete.

I quite agree, there is more to this that we are yet aware, and being Autistic is unlikely to be the reason, on it's own, but we do not know all the facts, maybe never will nor may the American authorities, sadly, and this could just be put down to another dreadful occurrence. Also re gun crime, this sort of thing has happened in this country as well as others, again, imho, gun laws are not to blame....