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Please play nicely.  No one wants to listen/read a keyboard warriors rants....

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Author Topic: democracy....  (Read 15747 times)

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Rods2

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #75 on: 05 June 2013, 19:13:06 »

Cem I've been reading about Mustafa Kemal and have some questions:

1. How does joining the EU fit with this vision as the founding father of your country? You will be handing 80%+ of your law making over to Brussels.

Mustafa Kemal's basic tenet was the complete independence of the country. He clarified his position:
“...by complete independence, we mean of course complete economic, financial, juridical, military, cultural independence and freedom in all matters. Being deprived of independence in any of these is equivalent to the nation and country being deprived of all its independence.”

2. How does the current Government's pressure for women to wear headscarves fit with Mustafa Kemal's vision on the role of women in Turkish society? Is this one of the major reasons for the unrest?

The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.”

Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women. The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code. Under the new code, women gained equality with men in such matters as inheritance and divorce. Mustafa Kemal did not consider gender a factor in social organization. According to his view, society marched towards its goal with men and women united. He believed that it was scientifically impossible for him to achieve progress and to become civilized if the gender separation continued as in Ottoman times. During a meeting he declaimed:
“To the women: Win for us the battle of education and you will do yet more for your country than we have been able to do. It is to you that I appeal.
To the men: If henceforward the women do not share in the social life of the nation, we shall never attain to our full development. We shall remain irremediably backward, incapable of treating on equal terms with the civilizations of the West."

On 5 December 1934, Turkey moved to grant full political rights to women, before several other European nations. The equal rights of women in marriage had already been established in the earlier Turkish civil code. Women's place in Mustafa Kemal's cultural reforms was best expressed in the civic book prepared under his supervision. Mustafa Kemal said that

“There is no logical explanation for the political disenfranchisement of women. Any hesitation and negative mentality on this subject is nothing more than a fading social phenomenon of the past. ...Women must have the right to vote and to be elected; because democracy dictates that, because there are interests that women must defend, and because there are social duties that women must perform".

Mustafa Kemal looks like he was a remarkable leader whose vision created a modern enlightened Turkey, the opposite of a country like today's Iran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #76 on: 05 June 2013, 21:02:15 »

Cem I've been reading about Mustafa Kemal and have some questions:

1. How does joining the EU fit with this vision as the founding father of your country? You will be handing 80%+ of your law making over to Brussels.

Mustafa Kemal's basic tenet was the complete independence of the country. He clarified his position:
“...by complete independence, we mean of course complete economic, financial, juridical, military, cultural independence and freedom in all matters. Being deprived of independence in any of these is equivalent to the nation and country being deprived of all its independence.”

2. How does the current Government's pressure for women to wear headscarves fit with Mustafa Kemal's vision on the role of women in Turkish society? Is this one of the major reasons for the unrest?

The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.”

Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women. The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code. Under the new code, women gained equality with men in such matters as inheritance and divorce. Mustafa Kemal did not consider gender a factor in social organization. According to his view, society marched towards its goal with men and women united. He believed that it was scientifically impossible for him to achieve progress and to become civilized if the gender separation continued as in Ottoman times. During a meeting he declaimed:
“To the women: Win for us the battle of education and you will do yet more for your country than we have been able to do. It is to you that I appeal.
To the men: If henceforward the women do not share in the social life of the nation, we shall never attain to our full development. We shall remain irremediably backward, incapable of treating on equal terms with the civilizations of the West."

On 5 December 1934, Turkey moved to grant full political rights to women, before several other European nations. The equal rights of women in marriage had already been established in the earlier Turkish civil code. Women's place in Mustafa Kemal's cultural reforms was best expressed in the civic book prepared under his supervision. Mustafa Kemal said that

“There is no logical explanation for the political disenfranchisement of women. Any hesitation and negative mentality on this subject is nothing more than a fading social phenomenon of the past. ...Women must have the right to vote and to be elected; because democracy dictates that, because there are interests that women must defend, and because there are social duties that women must perform".

Mustafa Kemal looks like he was a remarkable leader whose vision created a modern enlightened Turkey, the opposite of a country like today's Iran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk


thanks for sharing all those information Rods..  :y :y :y :y


1.good question :) :y   

    its doesnt fit anywhere else.. and who wants to join EU under the stated conditions is not his follower, despite their claims..
    if he was alive he would insist the joining laws to be changed so that any country joining would not loose their indepedance in any area else he would refuse to enter without doubt..


2. Actually they claim that they want every woman to be free.. but thats not true..  and this type of dress never fits Atatürks vision..

with the exception of villager women who works under sun and dust in the land..


some of current generations who is now managing the country are educated from imam schools with a different culture..  those schools are opened in high numbers after Atatürks death by some politicans which some of them were hanged at the time.. because they were easy to manipulate under the force of religion..  todays clash of cultures stemmed from this type of educatiion..
« Last Edit: 05 June 2013, 21:04:28 by cem »
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #77 on: 05 June 2013, 21:05:47 »

actually its the struggle between west type idea/education and east type ..
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Rods2

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #78 on: 05 June 2013, 21:49:06 »

My understanding is that there has always been an undercurrent from groups that would like to see Turkey more like Iran. This has happened right from Turkey's independence, where you mentioned the hangings as the result of an assassination plot against Mustafa Kemal.
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #79 on: 05 June 2013, 21:53:41 »

My understanding is that there has always been an undercurrent from groups that would like to see Turkey more like Iran. This has happened right from Turkey's independence, where you mentioned the hangings as the result of an assassination plot against Mustafa Kemal.

the hangings that I mention was at 1960.. it was the politicians who abuse religion  :-\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

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Rods2

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #80 on: 05 June 2013, 22:51:02 »

Your military certainly seem to like their coups and memorandums, 1960, 1971, 1980, 1997.  :o :o :o :o

You seem to be getting similar problems to what caused the previous military interventions. The 1980 coup looks like it was very bloody and oppressive.  :( :'(
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #81 on: 05 June 2013, 22:58:43 »

Your military certainly seem to like their coups and memorandums, 1960, 1971, 1980, 1997.  :o :o :o :o

You seem to be getting similar problems to what caused the previous military interventions. The 1980 coup looks like it was very bloody and oppressive.  :( :'(

1960 coupe was to stop a pm and a party who were using the reverse gear for the republic in the name of religion ..

but 1971 and 1980 were completely different ..1971 was to stop the freedom given by constitution and 1980 was prepared by gladio and overseas..

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #82 on: 06 June 2013, 11:09:09 »

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omega3000

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #83 on: 08 June 2013, 19:48:28 »

one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html

Have just peed my pants watching and listening to that  ;D ;D ;D Excess force from the police , shame on them  >:( >:(
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #84 on: 08 June 2013, 22:48:13 »

one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html

Have just peed my pants watching and listening to that  ;D ;D ;D Excess force from the police , shame on them  >:( >:(

 :y


I have lost the count of days since it started, but one thing is sure from now on pm cant do what he wants..
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Rods2

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #85 on: 08 June 2013, 23:40:46 »

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #86 on: 09 June 2013, 00:00:26 »

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #87 on: 09 June 2013, 10:01:57 »

one song ;D and some moments from protestors
http://videogaleri.gazetevatan.com/21020_9_Yeni-capuling-sarkisi-Seni-Izliyor-Olacagiz.html

Very prophetic and cleverly done.  :y

thanks..  :y    as you can see lots of people here  readin/writing English so they can follow most of the internet and external media.. clearly you cant make them "sleep" ;D
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #88 on: 09 June 2013, 10:02:47 »

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: democracy....
« Reply #89 on: 09 June 2013, 10:12:43 »

pms and parties latest conclusion: "international conspiracy"   oppsss.. :o :o 
 
complete blindness :(
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