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[Kevin Wood]

You certainly have your views Debs, and I respect them.

But you do seem to paint a very gloomy picture of man/womankind.

I think it is far better to accept that as human beings we are flawed and not perfect, and quite frankly the idea that any human being can be so perfect as to be totally 100% honest, 100% of every day, month and year, is unrealistic.

Good people do bad things, and bad people do surprisingly good things on occassions. The pursuit of human perfection can only lead to misery

True, but I believe people are increasingly looking after no.1 these days and disinterested in their neighbours. It may not manifest itself in crime or dishonesty in all cases, but lack of courtesy, etc.

Kevin

[Entwood]

The erosion of standards has happened fairly slowly but steadily ...

Take a bag of elastic bands or a box of drawing pins from work .... is that stealing ? - to most folks.. NO .. but it is.

A kid sees mum do that so takes a pencil and ruler from school, its not stealing its "borrowing" ... it is not many steps from there to shoplifting - and how many kids nick from shops these days ...

My local newsagent has had parents complain because they won't allow the kids in - even with adults - as their "loss rate" is so high, and the police won't prosecute as its "not worth the bother"

It's almost as if the parents condone what the kids are doing ....

We reap what we sow.....

 

[Tony H]

Honesty increases with age. As you get older the fear of being caught becomes much stronger.

However the older you get the more you can rely on your age as an excuse for dishonesty. Becoming forgetful absent mindedness,etc. But you would know all about that wouldn't you STMO  

[Darth Loo-knee]

just wondering who could doubt my honesty?

[HolyCount]

The erosion of standards has happened fairly slowly but steadily ...

Take a bag of elastic bands or a box of drawing pins from work .... is that stealing ? - to most folks.. NO .. but it is.

A kid sees mum do that so takes a pencil and ruler from school, its not stealing its "borrowing" ... it is not many steps from there to shoplifting - and how many kids nick from shops these days ...

My local newsagent has had parents complain because they won't allow the kids in - even with adults - as their "loss rate" is so high, and the police won't prosecute as its "not worth the bother"

It's almost as if the parents condone what the kids are doing ....

We reap what we sow.....

 

When I was 8-ish I took several plastic "coins" from my school ( see, I am not totally honest!!) .... anyway -- that night my mum found them .... guess where I was frogmarched the next day to apologise, return the coins and accept my punishment.

My mum ( God rest her soul) went to great lengths to teach me right from wrong and part of her legacy will be my children getting the same lessons.

[Martin_1962]

I would not accept stolen goods but if one of my accounts was accidentally improved I would say nothing - they takes 100s off us so I'd go for it.

If Tescos mess up or another big store do I worry?

BUt I would not go in and take without paying.

Always wondered what the legal issue would be with obtaining a full tank of fuel but then slipping cash to the value of the fuel minus duty would be?

As to theft - some people consider downloading as theft - no it isn't it is copywrite infringement - this is a grey area.

But I would always say it is a matter of morals and wrongdoing is not the same as illegal - soemthings are wrong but legal some are legal but wrong

[Martin_1962]

The erosion of standards has happened fairly slowly but steadily ...

Take a bag of elastic bands or a box of drawing pins from work .... is that stealing ? - to most folks.. NO .. but it is.

A kid sees mum do that so takes a pencil and ruler from school, its not stealing its "borrowing" ... it is not many steps from there to shoplifting - and how many kids nick from shops these days ...

My local newsagent has had parents complain because they won't allow the kids in - even with adults - as their "loss rate" is so high, and the police won't prosecute as its "not worth the bother"

It's almost as if the parents condone what the kids are doing ....

We reap what we sow.....

 

When I was 8-ish I took several plastic "coins" from my school ( see, I am not totally honest!!) .... anyway -- that night my mum found them .... guess where I was frogmarched the next day to apologise, return the coins and accept my punishment.

My mum ( God rest her soul) went to great lengths to teach me right from wrong and part of her legacy will be my children getting the same lessons.

Now you are trying to steal the secrets of International Rescue

[HolyCount]

The erosion of standards has happened fairly slowly but steadily ...

Take a bag of elastic bands or a box of drawing pins from work .... is that stealing ? - to most folks.. NO .. but it is.

A kid sees mum do that so takes a pencil and ruler from school, its not stealing its "borrowing" ... it is not many steps from there to shoplifting - and how many kids nick from shops these days ...

My local newsagent has had parents complain because they won't allow the kids in - even with adults - as their "loss rate" is so high, and the police won't prosecute as its "not worth the bother"

It's almost as if the parents condone what the kids are doing ....

We reap what we sow.....

 

When I was 8-ish I took several plastic "coins" from my school ( see, I am not totally honest!!) .... anyway -- that night my mum found them .... guess where I was frogmarched the next day to apologise, return the coins and accept my punishment.

My mum ( God rest her soul) went to great lengths to teach me right from wrong and part of her legacy will be my children getting the same lessons.

Now you are trying to steal the secrets of International Rescue

Ah yes , but that's only at weekends  

[bertiecbx550]

I am neither honest nor dishonest....compared to an M.P.......

[MaxV6]

As to theft - some people consider downloading as theft - no it isn't it is copywrite infringement - this is a grey area.

ding dong, round 1  

we've been here before.

plain and simple , in very  basic terms.

Downloading is taking the fruits of my labours without paying me for them.  

were I to take the fruits of your labour without paying you for them, whatever it might be.....   would you not consider that theft?


how exactly would you say that is NOT theft?.

an author only writes a book once, but if you take it from the store without paying for it, (and get caught)  you can bet you'll be done for theft.

[SWMBO]

I am painfully honest in some way and not in others.  Like many of us, I am very imperfect.  But I think its important to be honest where it affects others.  I download things and while I'm aware its stealing in a literal sense I am afraid it does not bother my conscience too much.  Maybe that's a shortcoming in me.

However, if I find a £1 (or more) in a shop, I do and have handed it in (cause I know how tight my budget is and how I'd feel if I lost even a small sum of money). If asked a question, and it relates to me personally I will always answer honestly (even if it gets me in trouble) as I simply haven't got the time or energy to keep hold of long strings of lies lol (tend to feel if I've done something wrong your conscience will give u a far harder time than any sanctions lol and I prefer it if people take me as they find me.., warts n all lol).., but if the answer to a question will cause hurt i will be very careful how i phrase it so as to not cause hurt.., cause I value the same in others.But I still won't lie.., occasionally I'll misdirect if I know hurt will be caused if I answer with brutal honesty.

I know people have looked at me in amazement cause I will go back and pay for items that for some reason or other i forgot to pay for in a shop (try shopping with a 12 year old and a 2 year old and then say it can't happen lol, believe me it does lol even if its only them taking items hostage lol).

[Martin_1962]

As to theft - some people consider downloading as theft - no it isn't it is copywrite infringement - this is a grey area.

ding dong, round 1  

we've been here before.

plain and simple , in very  basic terms.

Downloading is taking the fruits of my labours without paying me for them.  

were I to take the fruits of your labour without paying you for them, whatever it might be.....   would you not consider that theft?


how exactly would you say that is NOT theft?.

an author only writes a book once, but if you take it from the store without paying for it, (and get caught)  you can bet you'll be done for theft.

Actually copying but read on.

A better analogy is borrow and photocopy.

I am not condoning nor condemning - but if you download the original is still there - it has not been taken - it can be copywrite infringement but is not theft as nothing has been taken.

My last few downloads were BBC Iplayer and the latest Def Leppard record.

I listened it it to see if it was any good - it was so I bought it.

If it wasn't I would not have bought it and deleted the downloads


As to our software, if someone runs an unauthorised copy it is not theft - actually I don't know what we could do - but if they would never have bought it anyway we have lost nothing - but more to the point they wouldn't buy any of our competitors.

BTW we have a licencing system

[Martin_1962]

I have been in shops and come out with more than we bargained - however the last time it happened would have been the last time I returned the items as I was almost treated like a criminal.

Yes small children in push chairs picking stuff up and playing with it.

3 or 4 times - always took the stuff back (usually as soon as you are outside you see it)

But then I once caused a scare - I filled up with petrol, and then moved the car as I was blocking the entrance or something. Went in to pay and they wouldn't serve me as they were panicking about a drive off - I forced into the conversation and pointed to my car and was annoyed at them for not noticing me moved about 15 feet!

[SWMBO]

lol.., yeah I remember years ago I eventually did something about not receiving an electricity bill, and they put me thru to the Fraud something or other department lol.  I quickly put the phone down and left it another couple of months before I found the courage to ask them where the bill was yet again lolol.

[TheBoy]

I tell the odd porkie. Normally its "I've given up drinking" or "I'm never drinking again"