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[STMO123]

I've tried to care...I really have.....

[TheBoy]

Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.

Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.

If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict.  A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.

Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa

Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc

Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....


So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel.  But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.

Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was?  That was a much simpler situation...

[cem_devecioglu]

Bad news for us though as it's pushing up the price of oil again

bingo..their #1 aim despite the facts they stated..

[cem_devecioglu]

None of our business, and as usual religion is the root cause. Same as Iraq / Afghanistan, let them get on with it, we have enough problems of our own.

It's not religion, it's land.  Religion is the excuse and the way to motivate extremism, but the underlying issue is land.

agreed #2 reason..

[cem_devecioglu]

[soapbox mode = ON]

What annoys me is the blatant hypocrisy of the so called "free press" ... all these reports/film/protests about what is happening to the folks in Gaza .. and insistence that the Israeli stop instantly .... but not a single report about the damage the rockets do, or a protest at Hamas firing rockets indiscriminately.

Why is it OK for Hamas to attack Israel

The politicians say Israel should compromise ....  how do you compromise with someone who wants to kill you ??

"Ah Mr Arab, its OK .. just kill half of us this year and the other half next " is that a good enough compromise

[soapbox mode = OFF]

Hamas , though I never accept their behaviours, is the result of Israels long lasting violent behaviours..The main fight subject is land true but its been many years Palestinians live on those lands before they buy some and invade the remaining areas..

And now Palestinians are squeezed to the last breath..forced to live without any warmth , no water no food no doctor no electricity..

 

[cem_devecioglu]

Yes you are right Lizzie the Israel/Palestine conflict is not an easy subject to approach.

There is no black and white....right or wrong....good or evil....the whole thing is really an ambiguous grey area.

But if I were to have my opinion............I would say that Israel is far more sinner than sinned against............In my opinion Israel should not be any where near Gaza or any other part of Palestine for that matter, it is not their land and they have occupied it illegally since 1967............with the consent of the USA.

Israel is a Super Power with I believe the 5th most powerful army in the world.....Palestine on the other hand has no air force.........no army........and just a few stone age rockets which they use in an effort to protect what is in my opinion rightfully theirs.

Also............we must remember that Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people......if the Americans do not like that then ........bad luck..........that is what democracy is.

Also the Israeli response is not proportional..........with approximately 1 Jewish death to every 1000 Arab deaths due to the overwhelming military power of a Super Power such as Israel against a poor, virtually undefended stone age country such as Palestine.What I would like to see is far more condemnation of Israeli bully boy tactics by world leaders...........Foreign Secretary David Miliband has asked for an immediate cease fire, I think he should go further and unreservedly condemn Israeli actions.........On Sky news last night Tony Benn described the Israeli actions as "War Crimes"..........I agree.

I believe that the country of Israel should be allowed to exist.......in peace...............but a lot of the problems they encounter seem to be of their own making.

In summary............Israel more sinner than sinned against.

I think it is a cynical move that Israel have started this invasion while the cretinous George W Bush is still at the helm.They may be aware that Obama may not be quite as willing to go along with similar Israeli actions.

couldnt say better..

[cem_devecioglu]

Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.

Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.

If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict.  A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.

Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa

Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc

Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....


So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel.  But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.

Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was?  That was a much simpler situation...

Actually its not a religion problem..But now Hamas started using it because its a powerful tool to be elected..

[BigAl]

It is land
Palestinian land stolen & given to Israel by the UK & US in 1947

A nicely blinkered statement.

The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland; scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE. According to the traditional view, around the 11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years. The sites holiest to Judaism are located within Israel.

Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule. Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the Jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in the Land of Israel remained. Although the main Jewish population shifted from the Judea region to the Galilee, the Mishnah and part of the Talmud, among Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in Israel during this period. The Land of Israel was captured from the Byzantine Empire around 636 CE during the initial Muslim conquests. Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads, Abbasids, and Crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260. In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the region until the 20th century.

But then again History means little to a closed mind. If memory serves, the "Palestine" as an area ... actually includes Israel .. in the geographic sense. It is only in recent times that the word has been linked to an attempt to form a "nation"

Although i have no time for religon - I must object to the use of these PC acronyms

[TheBoy]

Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.

Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.

If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict.  A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.

Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa

Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc

Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....


So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel.  But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.

Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was?  That was a much simpler situation...

Actually its not a religion problem..But now Hamas started using it because its a powerful tool to be elected..

hence 'excuse of religion'

To say it was purely regilious, and cliches like religion is root of all evil, would be far too simplistic.  But getting people to fight in the name of their gods is a powerful tool.

[cem_devecioglu]

Israelis have a long relation with oil companies since Rothschild..

They are probably one of the strongest 12 families ruling the world..

if you want proof just google it..

[TheBoy]

Israelis have a long relation with oil companies since Rothschild..

They are probably one of the strongest 12 families ruling the world..

if you want proof just google it..

Loads of ex-Rothschild houses around where I live - Waddesdon Manor, Halton House, Hughendon Manor (think thats Rothschild)...  ...they weren't short of a penny when they built them (all National Trust now, except Halton House which is RAF)

[Nickbat]

Its far too complex a subject for a straight yes/no.

Ultimately, religion plays a big part, or at least the excuse of religion.

If you get largely religious populous adjacent to another, different, religious populous, there will be conflict.  A lot of which may be about disputed land that was been won and lost so many times over the centuries, its impossible to say where the border should be.

Jewish Israel/Muslim Palestine
Muslim Pakistan/Hindu India
The whole bulcans problem
Africa

Historically - greeks v romans, egyptians V hitites etc

Thats before we mention the crusades - in effect, Christian terrorists conquering the middle east....


So, if you could draw a recent line, then the Palestinians are wrong to fire rockets into Israel.  But this conflict goes back centuries, and so impossible to draw any lines without dialogue, and that isn't going to happen with the current Israelli and Hamas governments.

Remember what a breakthrough Northern Island was, and how surprising it was?  That was a much simpler situation...

Actually its not a religion problem..But now Hamas started using it because its a powerful tool to be elected..

hence 'excuse of religion'

To say it was purely regilious, and cliches like religion is root of all evil, would be far too simplistic.  But getting people to fight in the name of their gods is a powerful tool.

Here's my view:

TB's right, there is no easy yes/no. It's not all about religion as such, though. It's about cultures. Of course, such cultures are often easily characterised by religion since most states have an "official" mainstream religion. Mankind has always had a herd instinct. From local football club supporters clubs right up to state nationalist parties, there is a human need to belong to and be indentified with, a larger group. These groups often become fanatical and see any perceived danger to their group as a danger to themselves and their families. So it is around the world, whether in the Middle East, the former USSR, the Balkans, or wherever.

Currently, the Israelis see the rhetoric about wiping the state of Israel off the map, from Iran and Hamas, coupled with thousands of rocket attacks as a threat to their "club". The Palestinians see the ever present Israeli military and restrictions on their movement as a threat to their "club". Whipped up by their own media outlets and politicians, they end up having a fight, with many of those involved just being unwitting fodder.

It may seem odd to compare the behaviour of violent football supporters with the behaviour of nation states, but there is much in common, in my view.

Incidentally, for those who always blame religion, it should be noted that atheism itself is a religion, since it follows a dogma which is intolerant of others and to which any challenge is fiercely resisted.  

[TheBoy]

Incidentally, for those who always blame religion, it should be noted that atheism itself is a religion, since it follows a dogma which is intolerant of others and to which any challenge is fiercely resisted.  

Is there a religion for people who do not believe in heavenly gods, but really don't care what others wish to worship?

Apart from my Patron Saint, St Ella, from Leuven in Belgium....

[TheBoy]

How spooky, I'm reading this thread with my entire music collection on random play.  Simple Minds Belfast Child just came on

[Nickbat]

Incidentally, for those who always blame religion, it should be noted that atheism itself is a religion, since it follows a dogma which is intolerant of others and to which any challenge is fiercely resisted.  

Is there a religion for people who do not believe in heavenly gods, but really don't care what others wish to worship?

Apart from my Patron Saint, St Ella, from Leuven in Belgium....

Yep, it's called TB-ism. Apparently, in that religion, you can be  canonised for:

1) sacrificing one's caravan on a flaming pyre

and?......